Not really, I just wanted to point it out.

Absolutely, it is your right to purchase what you want for whatever reason you find fit. But when I read what you type, it really comes of as justification. I'm not the only one to have pointed this out over time.

A recent study showed that (going off memory here) for every percentage point of market share that GM loses, it costs something of ten to twenty thousand American jobs. I'd say that has an effect on our economy. Wouldn't you?

Read my last part again, please.

Keep in mind, Rob, that these are new factories coming in for the foreign makers. GM and Ford already have their factories here. So who's the ones with the major advantage right now? That's an easy, relevant question.

Absolutely. But that was twenty years ago. That stereotype is far from true today. Not to mention that the imports have had their less than stellar moments too. Most notable for Japan in recent years, Nissan. Poor quality combined with near bankruptcy. Look where they are now, flourishing. Now why not GM? They've gone through much the same transition, but how are they "percieved"? What really makes the difference in this case? Mentality.

So you're saying that two of the largest companies in America didn't contribute to the prosperity of the USA? Come on now, you know better.

So you are saying that GM and Ford don't make good enough products that people want at a good enough price? Maybe so, but why? One word, perception. Anything can be good or bad in one's mind if they want it to be.

I agree. But people could use being more open minded.

Making light of owning a Japanese car assembled in Japan with Japanese content. That's ok, I'm a fan of the Z myself. I don't own one, but it's a very nice looking car, IMO. In fact, one really could make an argument that nobody makes an affordable six cylinder two seater car other than the Z right now, making an American equivelant impossible.

But that comment shows where you are really coming from in your posts. Thanks for clearing that up. Are you really happy that Nissan's new home is going to be in Nashville, Rob?

 

Buy American implies buy "American owned"... which would imply North America.

Why is there a play on words with American manufacturers whenever this question is asked... no spin on Asian owned companies?

The more Americans buy American, the greater the likelihood American companies will develop better products... The BIG 3 just need to make the right decisions to stay competitive... GM, Ford need only look at Chrysler to see how bright the future can look.

 

The reason for the spin is that neither GM or Ford want American buyers to think too hard about who really owns GM and Ford and how the “buy American” mantra is more religion than fact to today.

And if “buy American” implies North America; would you ignore cars made in Hawaii?

Posters like "1990" conveniently overlook that the GM and Ford of today are not the GM or Ford their fathers and grandfathers worked for and purchased cars from and their logic breaks down extremely quickly if carried to its logical conclusion.

To truly “buy American" would mean that we would only buy cars made by companies who's workers are all (and only) American citizens living in the United States, who's stock is owned by only American citizens living in the United States and all design work, raw materials, and parts and assembly should done in the United States and/or come from suppliers/operations who are equally "American" owned and operated. Truly “American” car companies haven’t existed for decades but some refuse to see that inconvenient truth because it doesn’t fit their preconceived opinions.

Also, the only way the above can happen is if “America” becomes a totalitarian/dictatorial state where the government owns everything…I believe that’s called socialism.

If the logic was consistent and “1990” were truly as concerned with “buying American” and he and others claim to be, then he and all other of that ilk would refuse to buy an F-body made in Canada. If one TRULY thinks we should only buy American cars then there is no logical justification for buying the more recent F-body. Insted, since they want a new Camaro or Firebird, they buy the F-body irrespective of where it is actually manufactured and ignor the inconvenient truths.

Well, the “Big 3” is now GM, Toyota and Ford and the “order” is likely to change in the next decade. Chrysler is doing some good things but still has a long way to go (and let’s not forget who really owns it, now). As to the rest of your statement, I have to disagree.

Americans buying more American is not what generates improvement. Quite the contrary...it's what generates sloth and poor quality and complacency.

The real pressure on the original, domestic Big 3 began in the very early 70’s but all three continued down their path of poor quality, overpriced, gas-guzzling cars and trucks for almost 15 years before they started to make significant changes. Chrusler was even slower to change and would have gone out of business completely had they not convinced the government to step in.

There is no question that GM and Ford and Chrysler have build some truly great cars in the past…I’ve owned several (from all three in fact). There is equally no doubt that they build some truly world-class cars today but if people had continued to simply, like sheep, buy whatever the Big 3 produced then those cars held up today as examples of GM’s/Ford's/Chrusler's best would not have made it to the drawing board much less into production.

If mediocrity is accepted; one will never get (and should never expect) excellence.

 

Seeing how you are an analyst, Rob, tell me what you think of this by our own member, Fbodfather:

STATEMENT: “OH YEAH? WELL MY TOYOTA/HONDA/BMW/MERCEDES IS BUILT HERE IN THE UNITED STATES!”


82% parts in the average GM car or truck are domestic content
At Honda, it’s 49%
At Toyota, it’s 41%
Nissan? 38%
BMW? 11%

(by the way……go look at what the ‘transplants’ pay in taxes….real estate, school, state and federal……you might be surprised……if you’re a teacher and you’re complaining about budgets in you’re driving a Toyota or Honda, SHUT UP!)

GM/Ford/and DCX provide 23.4 jobs per 100 vehicles sold in the United States

The Japanese competitors? 13.3 jobs per 100 vehicles sold in the United States

GM’s capital investment in the United States from 1999 thru 2003 was $20Billion. Toyota’s capital investment from 1980 thru 2003 was $10.7Billion. Nissan’s? 2.8Billion from 1980 thru 2003…Honda? $5.6Billion – ’80 thru ’03.

GM’s contribution to the U.S. Gross National Product (GNP) is 4 times that of Toyota

Every Day, over 1 million North Americans earn their living by helping GM build and sell cars in North America. – Every month, 457,000 retirees and their spouses count on GM for pension checks. More than 1.1 Million people receive health care benefits from GM. A one-point drop in GM market share results in over 18,000 jobs in the United States.

 

How about we as consumers "Buy the best product for the best price, that has the requirements we were looking for in a car?"

You can tell me buy American all day long, but the truth of the matter is, if someone else could make a better pony car or sports sedan for the price, I wouldn't have a GTO or Z28.

Not being an expert, this just my thinking outloud: I see major issues with GM & Ford being their legacy & fixed costs due to the unions, and public perception of products (Whether that be real or imagined) on product, build, reliability, and dealer service.

These factors are within their control. They need to design better cars and get the word out that they are better, and the unions need to help them deliver those cars for a reasonable price (i.e. Make MAJOR concessions). If American companies can't/won't compete AND/OR the unions can't/won't allow them to compete, then what right do they have to exist?

 

I’m glad you at least admit when you use personal attacks rather than facts.

As to my “justification”; you take my statements as such only because YOU believe I need to justify my purchasing decisions – I don’t. I’m perfectly happy with the vehicles I own but if someone has a problem with what I choose to buy then THEY are the ones with the problem, not me.


Of course it has an “effect” on the economy, especially on the people out of work. But such statements ignore the fact that people get other jobs and that Nissan, Toyota, Subaru, and other “foreign” nameplates who build factories employ thousands of workers when they build their factories.

Such statements also ignore all other factors such as, how many of those 10-20K lost jobs were “fat” in the first place and should have been “lost” whether there was a Nissan or Toyota around or not?


Yes they are new factories…that’s the point. Communities give tax incentives to businesses/organizations who want to bring something to an area that isn’t already there. As I asked, cite an example where GM or Ford was considering moving into a community where that community would not/did not offer the same sort of incentives to a Nissan or Toyota? Do you think GM/Saturn got nothing to put their factory in Spring Hill, TN??? Or are you simply saying that GM and Ford should get tax breaks simply because they are GM and Ford?


The stereotype was formed because it was accurate and it isn’t quite as inaccurate today as you might like to think. The last three “foreign” vehicles I’ve owned combined have had fewer problems than I experienced with my 2000Z28. That doesn’t mean I didn’t love my Z28; it just means that GM hasn’t quite reached the level of success some would like to believe.

Yes…Nissan has had some “quality” issues and they’ve addressed/are addressing them. They aren’t perfect and I don’t believe I’ve heard anyone say they or any other manufacturer is. However, the issues you are referring to are based on surveys done within the first 6, 12, and 18 months after Nissan built an entirely new plant in Mississippi (launching five new vehicles there) and re-designed about 80% of its factory in Tennessee launching five new models there as well; two of which had never been build in the US before and all of that happened in a three year period.

Do you have any concept of what the equivalent change at GM would be…do you think they might have a few issues to resolve??? Perhaps GM and Ford’s biggest problem is that they wouldn’t have the guts to try it or even know how to make it happen if they did want to try it.


Of course they contributed to the prosperity of the USA; just as the Nissan plants in Tennessee and Mississippi does and Toyota’s and Mercedes Benz’s, et al.

But the United States isn’t great because of great companies- it’s exactly the other way around and the fact that you believe otherwise is the best indication of all of what really drives your views.


Yes…perception…that is always and always will be the truth and for any business to survive, it must deal with that truth or it will, and should, perish.


Yes…I am as happy the headquarters will be here as will be the 1,300 or so people who are employed by them as will be the real-estate agents and property owners who are selling houses to those employees as are the grocery stores, dry cleaners, movie theatres, sports teams, restaurants and every other business and all the employees of those businesses here who will sell goods and services to those employees.

 

Looking forward to your reaction to my previous post, Rob.

 

To analyze something, one needs all the facts…they aren’t all presented here but here are my comments.

PARTS CONTENT: Why isn't the content of GM vehicles not 100%??? If GM is really "American", shouldn't it be 100%

TAXES: There are lot’s of different kinds of taxes…which taxes are referred to here? Since he mentioned schools I presume property/business taxes…if so, is he suggesting that a GM plant and a Toyota plant representing an identical tax base doesn’t each pay the same amount of taxes? I truly doubt that and would like to know for which community/school district his statement is true.

I suppose it could be true if an incentive packages is in the equation but such packages, when they exist, are for a fixed amount of time. Also, such a comparison would ignore the substantial increase to the tax base represented by the Toyota plant that wasn't there before.

JOBS per 100 VEHICLES SOLD: Are those figures a comparison of “US Jobs” per 100 vehicles sold in the US whether manufactured domestically or imported or only per 100 vehicles manufactured within the US? Are the “jobs” all jobs regardless of location or are they only “US based jobs?

If the figures are “US based” jobs and only “domestically” manufactured vehicles then the figures are nothing to be proud of - they would simply indicate that it takes GM 42% more workers to produce 100 vehicles that the foreign transplants; not a very good thing unless your job is within one of those 42 percentage points.

CAPITAL INVESTMENT: $20B in five years is impressive but not very informative. Nissan was just starting to build its first plant in the US in 1980…Honda and Toyota were not much further along. And all those figures are meaningless without knowing the relative size of each of those companies to each other.

Most of the figures cited above prove GM is an extremely large corporation and makes a significant contribution to our economy. But I haven’t said otherwise nor does any of that really have anything to do with the topic.

You seem to think I hate GM or Ford or Chrysler…I do not and never have. I simply reject the “buy American” slogan as meaningless dribble lacking any real substance today perpetrated on the public by unions, their members and supporters in order to protect their own existence without regard to what’s truly good for America.

Like most people, I’ll buy the car that best suites me at the moment and which I can afford…as I’ve said before; it’s called free enterprise.

 

Obviously doesn't take much to satisfy some of us. lol

 

That really adds a lot to the discussion.

 

GM is just doing what it must to survive in this so called "emerging Globalization", importing some things to offset the UNFAIR trade policies and tax system that heavily favor foreign companies and investing abroad.
Buying non-USA products just add fuel to the flame, we've forgotten what sacrifice means, it's now all about "me" and "right now"...

 

Lew,

Where'd you get those numbers? I found this-

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...29/ai_14792007

Note the date- 1993.

The sticker from my '02 Acura TL-S (built in Marysville, on the Accord line) says 70% domestic, %20 Japan, remaining "other."

 

 

Nice tag line but misleading...believe me, no one is going to buy a Z and a G35 for the same price unless the Infiniti dealer is an idiot or the G35 is stolen!

That aside, as much as I love the G35, it really does come back to buying the car that meets your purpose...if you want a true sports car and best performance, you buy the Z...if comfort and interior size/seating capacity are primary issues you buy they G35.

 

http://www.chirpthird.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2391