It's called Globalization. It sucks, but is good at the same time. I would love for GM and Ford to be the powerhouses of design and pioneering like they were 40 years ago. And the fact my family was GM employed enhances my respect and to some extent "blindness" to GM.

40 years ago the competition was between Ford, GM, Dodge. Imports were virtually a blip on the map at the time. Then they started showing up. Ford, GM, Dodge continued competing, but also started getting "lazy". They accepted their part in the market share, a new workforce generation entered, and for the most part - creativity/engineering slowed to a crawl...

Unions that were once needed became burdonsome and will not allow the US Automakers to work in an efficient manner. What once was a saving grace, has now become a major disadvantage.

Import manufacturers came into this country and the vehicles were CRAP. It took them many years to improve, but they had a goal in mind. GM and Ford. (Just as any upstart company will do - foreign or domestic). Big 3 still kept on with their lazyness giving fat paychecks to scabs and a terribly inefficient workforce. (procedures to some extent).

Then the time came when the Imports surpassed the Domestics in quality/design/engineering and the **** hit the fan. Its like they saw it coming, but never really thought it would get here. Now that it's here I must say we've seen more strides in GM in the last 5 years then we have in the last 20 years!!! And to say any different would be blatently ignoring the facts. (Look how long the 4L60 was around?). 10 year product cycles? (1/8 of most peoples Lives!).

Anyhow, I used to be on the bandwagon against foreign competition, but have now realized that although I support and always will GM - I will not blindly follow them.

Imports are increasing more and more jobs here everyday. Do all of the profits go here? Of coarse not as it's a foreign company. BUT, that John Doe in Nashville is happy, along with the other 10k workers that will be hired at the Nissan plant. Obviously alot happier then the ones getting laid off from GM.

GM is correcting mistakes now (and Ford as well) from mistakes made well before some of us were born. Let's hope that they can continue.

On a side note about the Tax benefits - Just today it was announced Michigan offered HUGE TAX BREAKS to not close the Michigan plants... Who's not offering Tax Breaks to Domestics???

And Imports do get Taxed crossing the border - I would like to know what that tax is though - anybody?

Hey Bob, what's up?

 

The import taxes paid on vehicles is a complex business to say the least - companies such as Nissan, Toyota, etc have large tax departments/employees just to stay compliant. I couldn't begin to tell you the specifics and even if I wanted to try; it would put everybody to sleep!

Suffice it to say that the import/duty and other taxes paid to the various taxing authorities on an imported car is a significant part of the overall cost.

You are absolutely right...GM is doing some great things and I like a good bit of what I've seen from Ford and Chrysler as well.

As someone who has lived through the wonderful 60's and then the awful 70's/80's/early 90’s, any car enthusiast should be extremely thankful to whatever gods he believes in that he's alive today to see some of the cars available and what’s coming up.

I’m amazes at how we so accept, as no big deal, normally aspirated 300HP sixes and 500HP eights that meet air-quality standards and in cars that don’t require a six figure income to buy…could you even have imagined that 15 years ago???

 

Wrong, media bias has brought this picture to you, truth is, they are needed NOW more than ever before.
Wrong again, import cars coming into this country had one major problem, salt water. They usually had to sit in/on ships for weeks to get here, and maybe months more in a Customs yard before hitting the showroom. They weren't rustproofed to cope with it and promptly rusted out. And used some substandard materials that didn't hold up to much "abuse", (ie; neglect.)
Secondly, lots of stereotyping in the rest of your comment, and UNinformed. Looking to save money, as Proud has said, materials were substituted, and processes skipped, companies REFUSED to retool, but look who got blamed.
Up until last year, I used a 30+ YEAR OLD Squaring fixture.!...
UAW worker are also, many times rewarded for their increased efficiency by added tasks with NO increase in pay.(make that usually )
And Import companies had NO Legacy costs, so they could invest more heavily into "state-of-the-art" tooling, pay people competetively, sell at a lower price, sometimes even at a loss.

 

I do not blame the UAW for getting what they negotiated for...GM and the rest agreed to the wages and benefits which, in times past, they could afford.

What clearly rests at the feet of the UAW leadership, however, is being intransigent in the light of present day reality. Rather than offering reasonable accommodations, they insist on the status quo or more than the status quo - reality be dammed. Rather than helping the domestics meet the competition, they ask for protection from competition.

We see the results of that attitude today in Ford’s announcements…instead of scaling down in an orderly fashion to a size that makes sense in the wake of shrinking sales, we instead have massive lay-offs and plant closings.

As to the “legacy costs” argument; it has some merit but ignores the basic truth that such is ALWAYS the way of things. Every large/older company faces the same issue…a newer/upstart business always has such advantages along with being able to change direction/meet market needs more quickly and utilize technology more quickly…that is why Bill Gates has often said that Microsoft could be put out of business in a moment by some kid in a garage who comes up with the next great innovation in computer software. Such challenges have to be planned for and faced, not simply pointed to as an excuse.

And I wouldn’t yell to much about salt water and rust problems among imports…if memory serves, all the domestics were so bad at one point I seem to recall congressional investigations into the problem.

What really chaps the *** of the UAW (and what they will NEVER admit of course) is that the transplants came into this country and beat them at their own game…not a single transplant has done anything that GM or Ford or Chrysler could not do except that the UAW would never stand for it.

 

Get with the times. The US is old and busted. That is why I have applied for Chinese citizenship.

 

Demming tried to sell is philosophy here, Corporate America didn't want it...it had little to do with the UAW. That has all changed, I was ISO9000 certified by a firm from Dublin, Ireland, and we are ontrack with the competition.
Not surprised with your comment, outsiders get slammed with all sorts of propaganda regarding the UAW.
We/they have made numerous concessions to deal with the "present day reailty", my insurance Co-Pay is $65, the HIGHEST in or around my area, that includes Honda of America btw...good for me my doctor only charges $59/visit.
Let's see: Seniority is all but void, insurance is now a joke, 2/3 of jobs GONE, sub assemblies now Outsourced to the lowest bidder, many materials imported non-brand name, absentee policy makes Import factories seem like country clubs, efficiency is rewarded with increased labor output goals...
While faceless names make 1,000 times the average worker's income but hide it through mediocre salaries with "mega-perks", are insulated from the economy, and always blame and cut cost from those least able to bear it.

 

Two thoughts; one worth repeating from above...

FIRST: There is absolutely nothing the imports have done in this country with their plants, with their designs or with their workers that the domestic nameplates could not have done...while it is always dangerous to oversimplify, the ONE most significant difference between a plant operated by GM and one operated by Toyota is the absence of the UAW in latter. As long as the UAW hangs around the neck of GM and Ford they will never be truly competative with the imports.

SECOND: If the UAW is so beneficial, why have thay failed so miserably at organizing ANY transplant? The answer is simple, whenever they are allowed to hear all sides and view all the facts, technicians at the transplants turn down the UAW 3 to 1.

 

That's a part of the issue. Most of the work effort and materials that go into a imported vehicle happen in the far east, Asia, materials, assembles, etc. This work abroad doesn't help or aid the US economy and Americans in general. Having the majority of work done abroad then bringing the assemblies here for final assembly is a way around the import/duty taxes of bringing in a fully assembled vehicle.

Regardless, UAW, good decisions, bad decisions, good management, stupid management, etc the 60k people and near 30 facilities that Ford and GM elvis'ing are all on US soil. This downsizing will have an impact to others in the US as well like suppliers and companies that provide Ford and GM services. Entire towns and cities will incur impact. At the end of the day these are all American's, and that's the travesty that seems be over looked.

 

Toyota workers put

Courage
on the line

GEORGETOWN, Ky. – “I’m looking at my future is what I’m looking at,” says Karen Toler, a test driver at Toyota’s massive 7.2 million-square-foot factory complex nearby.

“Right now I’m relatively young still at 42. I’m still hirable. But what’s going to happen when I’m 61, and they say, ‘We’re not going to pay for your health insurance anymore’?”

Toler, one of the first Americans to work at a Japanese-owned auto plant in the United States, has worked at Toyota 18 years.

“I started before the first car rolled off the line,” she recalls. “We were building break rooms, doing training, that kind of thing.”

The plant Toler helped get off the ground – Toyota Motor Manufacturing of Kentucky (TMMK) – has been a stunning success. The Japanese carmaker is the world’s seventh-largest corporation, with worldwide revenues of $172 billion and profits of $10.8 billion in 2004.

Kentucky workers have helped boost Toyota’s profits by giving the company a strong foothold in the highly lucrative U.S. vehicle market, turning out more than 6 million vehicles since the facility opened in 1986.

The Camry sedan, TMMK’s signature product, has been the best-selling car in America for the past three years and is the leading seller so far in 2005. In 2006 Georgetown will begin production of a hybrid version of the Camry.

With wages of $25 an hour, a company-paid health plan, a 401(k) package and the steady work that goes with making a top-selling product, why is anyone at TMMK interested in a union?

‘To go in there every day wearing a UAW shirt – that takes real courage.’

~ Region 3 Director Terry Thurman

Because nothing is guaranteed, says Toler. “Will it be there tomorrow? That’s the big question. Toyota has cut back and changed and eliminated an awful lot. If they continue on their downward trend with their benefits and the bonuses, where are we going to be?”

The problem at Toyota isn’t just pay and benefits, says Toler. It’s the daily indignity of working in a factory where managers set the line speed at a breakneck pace – and have no patience for the basic human needs of the people who have to keep it running.

“It’s hard to get off the line for a bathroom break,” said Toler. “They give you a dirty look, or they might give you a smart remark about holding it until break.” But there aren’t enough women’s bathrooms available during break time, she says.

“A union would really improve things,” she says. “You would have a vote in what your package is. You would have a chance to elect a bargaining committee, and then you would vote yes or no, and whatever you agree to is written into that contract.

“A union is going to give us accountability. Right now, Toyota can do whatever they want,” she adds.

Despite a successful relationship with the UAW at the New United Motor Mfg. Inc. (NUMMI) plant in Fremont, Calif., which Toyota jointly owns with General Motors (see Page 19), the Japanese auto giant has taken a tough anti-union stance in Kentucky.

Well over 2,000 of Toler’s co-workers have expressed an interest in forming their own organization for the purpose of collective bargaining – not a majority yet, but an impressive showing at a company that makes an aggressive effort to prevent workers from exercising their rights.

Toyota is two-faced, says L.T. Davis, a 15-year TMMK veteran who is also a UAW supporter. “It’s a public façade. They say, ‘We’re not anti-union; it will be the employee’s choice.’ ”

But inside the plant, says Davis, it’s a different story. “We were paid overtime and required to attend an anti-UAW, anti-union propaganda meeting,” says Davis. “It lasted about an hour.”

Managers also deliver an anti-union message during the last five minutes of break time – time which is set aside by TMMK for safety briefings.

According to the National Labor Relations Board (NLRB), Toyota has stepped over the line on several occasions with illegal harassment of UAW supporters.

In one case, the NLRB found that the company had illegally disciplined workers who were discussing workplace issues; in another, the UAW won back pay for a worker who was illegally terminated – after it was discovered that the notation “openly supports UAW” had been marked in his personnel file.

Toyota’s tough stance is in contrast to its image as a model employer, which the company works hard to promote. Toyota officials tout, for example, the good pay and benefits at their Kentucky plant, but they don’t say much about their widespread use of temporary workers, who can earn as little as $8.50 an hour, with no insurance or other benefits.

Toyota has stretched the definition of “temporary” beyond all recognition, treating lower-wage workers as second-class citizens for five years or more.

The company won’t release statistics on its use of temps, but TMMK workers estimate there are more than 1,000 temporary workers, out of a total workforce of about 5,500 production and maintenance workers.

“I’ve become friends with a lot of the temporary guys,” says John Hall, who has worked at TMMK 14 years. One employee, he recalls, finally got a chance to apply for a permanent job after five years as a temp. “But when he went to take his physical, they told him he had carpal tunnel and they couldn’t hire him. They used him for five years and kicked him to the curb.”

Carpal tunnel syndrome, caused by repetitive motion, is a common occurrence at Toyota. Part of the problem, says Hall, is workers are discouraged from reporting injuries.

“Many times they’ll blame you if you get hurt. They’ll say you had not stretched enough, or you were not performing the job in the correct postures,” says Hall.

“That’s one of the biggest faults of Toyota. The job is not built around the worker; the worker must adjust to the job, whether it’s safe or not.”

The new TMMK Worker Resource Center, opened by the UAW in May, is giving volunteer organizers such as Hall, Davis and Toler new opportunities to communicate with their co-workers.

Although there is a solid base of support, pro-union workers realize they still have plenty of work to do.

“We’ve got a lot of cards signed,” says Gene Toler, Karen’s husband and a 10-year veteran of the assembly line at TMMK. “But we’re not where we need to be.”

Although labor law allows workers to file for a union representation election with support of as little as 30 percent of workers in a bargaining unit, Gene Toler is convinced TMMK workers need to be much stronger before taking that step – because he knows Toyota will run a harsh “vote no” campaign.

“I want to win,” he says. “I’ve not been doing this for eight years just so we can have an election and lose.”

“To stand up for your rights inside that plant, to go in there every day wearing a UAW shirt – that takes real courage,” says Terry Thurman, director of UAW Region 3, which includes Kentucky and Indiana. “I really admire these workers for what they’re doing at Toyota, and the UAW is going to do all we can to support these workers.

“Our whole union, really, owes them a debt of thanks. If we’re going to keep the auto industry in this country as a strong union industry, these are the workers who are going to have to make it happen. They’re showing the same kind of courage it took to start our union in the first place – and I think one day we’re going to have the same result: a good union contract, a voice on the job and democracy in the workplace.”

- by Roger Kerson

(from Solidarity Magazine Nov/Dec.2005)

 

I’m not sure how you arrived at that conclusion but the transplant manufacturing plants make the vehicles here as much as GM or Ford does…often using the exact same vendors for their raw materials as well as finished parts…they don’t bring over sections of finished product/almost assembled cars and simply fit it together as you seem to be implying.

And I don’t think anyone is overlooking the impact from Ford’s or GM’s actions or underestimates the personal tragedy when people loose jobs.

 

While I'm sure "Solidarity Magazine" is an unbiased publication with no agenda behind the quotes printed; all the quotes in the world wont change the simple fact that every time the UAW has tried to organize a transplant facility; they lost - and not by a slim margin.

You might find this article from the Detroit Free Press of interest...

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a...SS01/601200452

 

Posted earlier in this thread average domestic content:

82% parts in the average GM car or truck are domestic content
At Honda, it’s 49%
At Toyota, it’s 41%
Nissan? 38%
BMW? 11%

These numbers state that a far greater percentage of import manufactured vehicles have content materials, components, and assemblies that are sourced outside of the North American shore line.

The assembly line workers certainly aren't taking raw material and conforming components and assemblies while on the assembly line. On an assembly line, parts, components, and assembles are faceted to assemble the entire vehicle. In the import manufactures case, much larger percentages of the parts that comprise a vehicle come from sources other than North America.

Just because final assembly is done here certainly is no indicator of actual domestic content. The numbers above show the true value that these companies are investing locally versus abroad. This is all part of the import marketing smoke screen.

 

Fair point, but way back when, all those numbers below GM's were "0" as in "ZERO". The trend is rising upwards, in my opinion. The Titan and Tundra weren't designed in Japan, I can tell you that much. I have seen a new Tundra window tag when looking around at the mall....it's at least $60% made in USA to my recollection, so while some Toyotas are dragging the numbers down (Lexus are all made in Japan, correct?), some are playing ball here, for the most part. More to come. Live with it. If you don't like it, don't buy it.

Let's be proud that GM makes the 3.4L v6 in China now. Also, GM and Ford believe that Asia is a profit cow, for some reason. If that's the case, Toyota, HyundaiKia and the like wouldn't be here. I doubt when Toyota has the San Antonio plant really up and going, all their materials will be coming from Japan. That %age will be closer to zero than 100%.

Does this mean I will go out and buy a Tacoma or HD Tundra? Nah, sure don't. But in the "dog eat dog" world we live in, people have to pay the bills somehow. Don't think your average Nissan worker in Canton, MS ain't thankful at least someone brought work to MS. There a plenty of American (among other nationalities) stockholders in any of the aforementioned companies that hope things go well. Why not wish them the same?

So, I suppose we've gone through 50 posts trying to wish reality away. Or something like that. Honda Motors of North America is based in NYC....yahoo business lists 'em. Call 'em and say "Hi, build a real truck!" sometime. They're your neighbors, in a broad sense.

Buy what works for you, that's all. Of course, this could be Russia, where you find real top notch Ladas to toot around in. (Sarcasm)

And you all see what I own. Ford thanks us by trying to kill the Ranger plant and you know where the GM F-bods went.

Of course, part of these threads always turns into "Well, if (this brand) didn't come to the USA, GM and Ford would be healthy." Not so, reap what is sown. I, for one, would not want to see good old Western civilization complacency root itself too deep in the US automakers, but it has anyway. GM waiting until 09 to do what Ford did for 05 (Mustang), waiting until 07 to get a crossover (Buick Centienne), both of them pinning their survival on gasser SUVs and trucks, but what about a diesel engine or a better hybrid in them? Playing catch up is doozie....the worm turned and the gears are really slooooow to turn. We have another gas price spike, like the 70s, but the Last 2 let history repeat itself again. I do not feel pity enough (okay, none at all) to reward them for that display of sloth.

The Euros are losing their auto industry, especially England, VW makes stuff on every inhabited continent, Jag-u-ar, Aston, Volvo, and Saab are all US owned...but it's us that has a problem with someone bringing their base over here. Interesting.

 

Did somebody say Lada!

http://lada.toimii.net/leffa/ladaraider.mpg

Yeah, 5th gen fans fear this!

 

As I noted (well) above in this thread, those content percentages are meaningless without knowing what the parameters are - do the figures for the transplants include ALL vehicles sold under those nameplates, including those models wholy imported, or only the models assembled and sold in North America and what model year are those figures for? Knowing those two facts could change the meaning of those figures significantly.

In any case, I'm not claiming that transplants models don't have less North American content than a typical Ford or GM, it's just not the picture painted earlier of nearly assembled cars brougth here to have just a bit more assembly.

That said, what argument will be offered when the average parts content of a typical Toyota is statistictly equal to or greater than a typical Chevy? And if you think that can't or won't happen...think again.