Lew,

Good luck, I'm with you. I've made the same argument on here a hundred times, and gnashed teeth with Robert a couple times before. It makes no difference what you say to him...he believes what he wants.

I'd add my own .02, but Lew already did it.

 

It goes without saying, of course, that the “buy American” pundits are always open-minded and base all their arguments and opinions on facts (and never engage in attacking a poster personally who's views they don't agree with) and of course, the facts they base their opinions on come from sources not tied to the domestic nameplates and/or the UAW!

 

Lets get back to the original point.

I still say when you add up salaries/commissions of dealer staff (sales persons, administrative, service personnel), salaries of corporate office staff, wages of labor at the plants, income to the construction firms that built the plant and the office buildings and the dealer lots, the money made by the trucking companies that transport the cars to the dealers from the factories, the salaries at the US design centers, the money pumped into US media for advertising, the money paid to US advertising firms, the money that goes to all the suppliers of US parts including frame plants like Dana, brake part companies, tire manufacturers, glass plant companies and workers...and all the various support industries including the lunch counter across the street from the plant, the income and property taxes paid into US/state/local governments by employees of all the above, that the combined aggregate POSITIVE effect of purchasing an "import" nameplate car built in the US is orders of magnitude greater than whatever piddly "profits" quote-unquote "go back to Japan."

I prefer American cars and if given the choice (meaning good products from domestics) I'll buy Domestic nameplates, but I will not fault somebody for buying an American built Import model out of some red herring fantasy-land "but the profits go back to Japan" argument which ignores the massive aggregated and compounding positive effects of buying a car built here by a company that happens to be headquartered in another country.

I would agree with the statement that buying US built imports is "less good" for the US economy than buying a domestic car, but I think it is false to say it is "bad" for the economy.

When a car costs $20,000 and $1,000 of it goes overseas and the other $19,000 stays here and is curculated in the economy, I hardly see that as bad.

Put another way, I'd rather the imports put their plants here vs. them moving them all back to Japan. We're keeping a much higher % of the revenues of a car sale here than we were when imports were truly "imported".

And lets not pretend that if imports were banned that the domestics would somehow miraculously get healthy again. Competition improves the breed.

 

And while I agree with this statement, I still find it really hard to say that it's good for the US economy at the same time when GM alone figures that each point of market shared lost costs more than 18,000 American jobs.

It's a catch 22.

 

Keep preaching...the sad thing is, the choir won't listen...

 

Does it cost GM 18,000 American jobs or does it actually cost 18,000 net jobs? If every point of market share gained by the imports has an opposite effect, then the net is much much less than 18,000.

I'm a gm-nutswinger as much as the next guy but I know enough about politics to know that their PR machine is going to exaggerate and make the worst-case look like the norm.

Lets also not pretend that Domestics don't have any foreign content in them in terms of supplier-built parts and raw materials.

 

Yeah, I don't know why anyone wouldn't eagerly accept a 60% pay/benefit cut....
If you missed the points in the article I provided, there's not much more I can do for you. You may be insulated from any such actions as Delphi CEO, used on their worker.. You obviously seem to choose to be oblivious to what you disagree with, and use the "Truth Relativity Theory", that states; the truth is relative to where I am standing...But in reality there's only one truth, and it's neither yours nor mine.
I tend to trust the people that work for the Companies in question over the Corporate Propaganda Machines of mainstream Media(ie; DFP). I know who owns them...
Also, my cousin works for Honda of America, East Liberty, Ohio; they routinely threaten employees who show interest in organizing a Democratic workforce. Some threats have even been addressed by the NLRB.
Using "empty" threats like," If you accept the UAW, we will make you pay 100% of you Health Care Insurance"...BLATANT Lies, all current agreements would be "frozen" until a contract is negociated.
And they use company time regularly to employ their propaganda machine against the UAW, they even brought high priced Lawyers in, to advise them on how to "bust" any organizing attempts. And employees who knew the truth, who attended UAW meetings and were prepared, and asked intelligent questions, were "black-balled" from company meetings.
I understand GM has a percentage of import parts in them, as well as Toyota has domestic parts in them, some made here locally for BOTH. And it's becoming hard to "Buy American", but not buying domestic will certainly lose MORE jobs here, than a transplant.
No, this burden does not rest solely on the consumer, product quality must improve, mainly material quality, which will fit better, and more easily, look great and last...which will draw more consumers.
I'm just saying, the WHOLE facts are NOT getting reported as to why Unions are gettting rejected in transplants, that's all...I'm done.

 

It's American jobs.

No arguement here, but lets not forget the facts provided:

82% parts in the average GM car or truck are domestic content
At Honda, it’s 49%
At Toyota, it’s 41%
Nissan 38%
BMW 11%

 

Let's not forget the facts provided?

Why then do those "facts" keep getting presented while those who keep repeating them conveniently ignore a couple of basic questions?

Part content figures mean nothing without knowing where they came from and what was included in the calculation; unless of course you simply like what they say and, therefore, don't want the answer to those questions.

And if part content is the end all and be all of the argument, why, if GM is so "American", is its part content not 100%?

As to the “18,000 jobs”…what about the "18,000 thousand jobs"...it's a meaningless figure by itself. How many of those 18,000 jobs shouldn't have existed in the first place because they weren't really needed anymore but union contracts wouldn't allow them to be cut? How many of those 18,000 workers took jobs with Toyota or Nissan or Honda? How many of them went back to school and/or started a new career?

 

It's pretty apparent you can attempt to discredit anything. Yet bring little to the table. Where are your numbers?

The numbers posted for content in this thread I believe originally were posted by Scott Settlemire. If you want to discredit Scott go ahead. The man has been nothing but truthful and honest to this group of enthusiasts. Therefore until proven otherwise I will believe Scott. If you choose not to fine.


You can attempt to dissect and tear anything apart without any regard for who these people are. These people have faces, names, and families, they are our brothers, sisters, friends, and neighbors, which in the end they are ALL Americans. No matter which way you slice it 18,000 jobs lost will have an affect on themselves directly and their families. GM and Ford announcing the loss of 60K jobs over the past 3 months isn't a good thing for the country in which we reside.

How many of those 18,000 workers took jobs with Toyota or Nissan or Honda? It certainly wasn’t 18,000 I can tell you that.

It makes me sick to know in the country of which you reside provides you this freedom to come into this message board and yet be so blatantly unsupportive and show such a serious disrespect and non-caring attitude for your fellow Americans and their well being.

If it wasn't for the industrial might of this country of which Ford and GM employees during WWII contributed heavily. We might well be speaking Japanese or German right now. How much did Toyota, Nissan, and Honda help with the American war effort???? Ohhhhhhh that's right.....

I know you'll come in here and tear apart everything I've stated. That's fine as it's expected from you. At the end of the day I'm seriously appreciative and supportive of the country I live in. The history and the generations of Americans that have helped to contribute to the country and freedom we have today. Call me bias, yes I'm deadly bias to see our country succeed and prosper.

 

Not surprisingly; you miss the point of my comments entirely and mistake very reasonable questions for a personal attack on Scott.

Yes…I know Scott is, at least purported to be, the original poster of these numbers. I’ve met Scott on at least four occasions (F-Body Gathering and Bowling Green) and was proud to have him sign my Z28 – I have nothing but respect for him and what he means to those who love Firebirds and Camaros – all of which has nothing to do with my questions as to how those numbers were calculated and what was included.

To make sure you don’t miss it this time here is an illustration of why I ask ….if Honda sells ten models in the US; five of which are manufactured in the US and five are manufactured offshore and transported here; would it not be reasonable to suspect that the North American part content of the five models assembled here might just be a little higher than the North American part content of any of the five models produced offshore? And if that is the case, don’t you think it might make just a little difference in the numbers and might be worth knowing whether all ten models or just the five domestically assembled were included when quoting part content for a nameplate? If the domestic part content for Honda, in my example, is 60% when looking at just the five assembled here or 40% when all ten models are included don't you thknk it might be a good idea to know that?

I’m not saying the numbers are wrong…I am asking what’s in them.

I’m also not suggesting that the transplants are as high in domestic content as GM but I do ask once again, why is the part content % the end all and be all of the discussion and if it is, why is GM not being chastised for being only 82%???

Find one post of mine where I said or even hinted that I don’t care about the people affected…you’ll find quite the opposite if you get past your bias.

You are very correct, GM or Ford ending jobs and closing plants is not a good thing for our country or the industry but what is your answer then? Should GM and Ford continue to employee people in jobs they don’t need to build cars they can’t sell?

Maybe we need a Federal mandate that every citize must buy a new car at least once every four years and that new car must be a GM or Ford product...perhaps they should step in and close down every transplant manufacturing plant (and all their suppliers and everyone else who benefits from those jobs directly and indirectly) so that GM and Ford don’t have to compete…we’ll wind up with about the same number out of work...would you care as much about those affected then or woudl you not care since they aren’t former GM or Ford employees???

And you can tell me that based on what exactly?

You are right of course, I’m unsupportive and disrespectful because I believe companies and their employees should compete in the marketplace and earn their position…believing in free enterprise rather than protectionism and scapegoating is very un-American and unpatriotic of me.

I think it’s now obvious what is really behind your opinions - I can easily forgive such a view from those who landed on Normandy beach or at Guadalcanal or the Coral Sea…getting shot at tends to give one significant clarity and a firm opinion. I doubt you were there, however which makes a statement like that just old fashioned bigotry.

 

Protectionalism FAILED in the USSR. We shouldn't allow it to happen here...

 

So back to the original question ...

As a Canadian ....

Should I be buying an "Assembled in Canada" Toyota Matrix or an "Assembled in the U.S.A" Pontiac Vibe for my wife?

 

If you want to stay married; I'd suggest you buy whatever she wants, at least, whatever she wants that you can afford)!

 

Problem is GM doesn't build NEW 1988 GMC S Jimmy 2 doors anymore. I need to find the next best "fit".