And this was a serious M3, not a 3700+ pound luxo model!
I don't think I've ever seen such a light weight for an M3.

 

They were close in every real test I saw. I only remember the 4.6 GT "owning" the Camaro SS when the two were compared subjectively on windy roads.

The best comparison I remember reading with real drivers, on a real track, HEAD TO HEAD, DOOR TO DOOR, was Automobile magazine with Parnelli Jones and can't remember the other guy driving.

The Mustang was a 2010 Track Pack and while both drivers preferred the handling feel and turn-in of the Mustang, they both said they could only pass the Camaro if they were to put a fender to it. The Camaro posted the faster and quicker lap times.

The Camaro SS can be a LOT better in the handling feel department and it can certainly improve its laps times as well, but it does get (got) the job done, even if it doesn't feel as good as the Mustang.

A "track pack" like Camaro SS would be very competitive with or even best the new 5.0 GT if done well. Perhaps GM will do this in the future. Perhaps not.

I don't see any answer for the Boss though.

 

Wow, the road course test is spectacular! The Mustang rocks. Sounds like Randy Pobst doesn't even consider the Camaro in the same league.

 

While I highly respect a professionals opinion. I don't think you could realistically make that claim unless he has driven the Camaro on the same track.

 

I don't know if he's ever driven a Camaro on the Streets of Willow, but this what he said when he drove one at Laguna Seca:

 

Wow I didn't see that.

if I might ask were the lap times given for the stang and camaro?

 

The fixable issue with Camaro's handling is seemingly straightforward: Wider versions of it's existing tires (though both use the exact same Pirelli P-Zeros, the Camaro's fronts are skinnier than the Mustangs!), tighter bushings and perhaps revised steering tune.

The unfixable issue with the Camaro is that high belt line that give's Camaro it's traffic stopping look also makes it feel bigger and more unruly than it is.

Camaro's IRS means it's going to take a whole lot to unsettle it on a high speed curve, and BMW and AMG has been making cars heavier than the SS handle like mad for years.

The potential is certainly there for Camaro to care up a course better than a Mustang, but because the Mustang feels lighter and has a lower beltline, the Mustang is almost certainly going to always "feel" better, no matter what GM does with Camaro.

But that isn't a bad thing.

 

Agreed!! I just made almost this same post in a thread in the lounge. I (and many others, yourself included I'm sure) have been saying this for some time now.

Come on GM, give it to us!!

 

You put fatter tires on and the car mags favorite reason to not like American cars comes up.......Numb steering. Although it is somewhat numb now.

 

The tire width in and of itself isn't going to make or break the steering feel. Alignment setting, steering ratio and effort are very important. Granted, the wider tires will feel heavier to turn at low speeds. But I think the real difference is in the rest of the steering and front suspension settings.

 

Oh, it absolutely does. And just for kicks, why do you think they went with the front tires chosen for the Camaro?

 

1. You missed my mentione of retuning the steering.
2. Bigger tires tend to do the opposite of making the steering numb. They tend to make the car "darty" at speeds and tend to take a bit more effort at stand still.


As mentioned by falchulk, you bet your tush it DOES make a difference.

The big issue with Camro's handling (that isn't related to it's high beltline styling) is that it has a pretty serious (via Mustnag GT Track Pack standards) understeer problem. I've found it out myself. A sharp turn or increasing acceleration in a corner doesn't give you the balenced handling or the sticky grip that a 4th gen does (or an 89 SC with upsized 245 tires). What you get is a Camaro that starts giving up grip, and starts edging towards straight ahead instead of continuing on the curve.

That's most certainly a tire issue.

Since the exact same tires do wonders on the Mustang GT, and the Camaro SS is about 200-300 pounds heavier, yet it uses skinnier versions of this tire, then it's pretty obvious where you want to look first to fix the problem.

The 2nd issue is in steering response and feel. That's exasberated by the "tank" feeling of a high beltline & high dash creating an illusion you're sitting in a tank to begin with.

Jumping from a 4th gen or a Mustang GT into the 5th gen and the steering feels almost artificial. Sure, you eventually get used to it, and it feels perfectly normal....... until you jump back into a 4th gen or a Mustang GT.


GM undoubtedly went with the thinner tires to help with steering feel in the new Camaro. Somewhere along the line in final development, an engineer's notebook likely said something about heavy steering feel, and the fix made for production was to specify thinner front tires... which reduced steering grip.

I have no doubt whatsoever that this was only a temporary fix, and that there is a revised steering system in the pipeline, and therefore better grip and feel.

But the current Camaro is always going to feel much bigger than it really is.... [i] the 5th gen is not much bigger than the Mustang save about 2 thumbs width in stance.. yet it feels huge. That's all an illusion.

 

I didn't say it didn't make any difference. I said it wasn't the only factor. Making a little change to toe is going to make at least as big a difference as 245 width versus 275 width front tire. But since you asked, the narrower front tires were probably chosen to reduce tram-lining and to reduce steering effort at low speeds. If they were out to make a track prepared Camaro as opposed to a street friendly one, then the likely would have put wider tires on the front. It would have also had a multitude of other changes to alignment and suspension specs. Which leads me to...

Sure it makes some difference to steering feel, which is what I commented on. I was making no comment about handling prowess. I pointed out that there are many other factors influencing the feel which apparently you then go into.

I don't disagree that wider front tires may be a way to address this, but I would also point out that there are also several other items that could likely be changed to improve the under/oversteer balance outside of trying to improve front grip alone, eg spring rates or sway bar diameter. Also keep in mind that while a wider front tire should provide a little higher lateral grip limit, it will break away more abruptly at the limit (which isn't a characteristic OEM's like for more mainstream cars). Then again, higher spring rate and to a little lesser extent bigger sway bars can affect ride quality adversely.

I agree with this.


Seems like a reasonable hypothesis.

Guess we will wait and see.