Note that I didn't say that they were.
96_Camaro_B4C understood what I meant.

 

Sometimes I think we spend too much time thinking about this stuff

 

Didn't Ford announce the Probe was going to be the successor to the Mustang back in the mid-80's. It wasn't till Mustang fans rallied heavily that Ford changed course to keep Mustang?

I don't believe any company is impervious to making poor product decisions, no not even Ford.

 

Well sure an enthusiast will certainly do things that the buyer group as a whole won't. Why compare the enthusiast of one vehicle to the buyer group of another? Wouldn't enthusiast group to enthusiast group be a better direct compairson?

Comparing enthusiast to enthusiast, the lines become quite intermingled.

An enthusiast is an enthusiast, as a multiple time owner of Mustang and Camaros, being part of local clubs, participating in car shows, AX, road course, drag strip, attending and participating in events like Super Chevy and Fun Ford weekends. An enthusiast is an enthusiast. The label on the car doesn't confine one group as a whole into social group, that mostly cruises or visits car shows.

Your week of cruising around in the Camaro all week couldn't have set a perception in your mind that's the definition of meaningful use of the vehicle for the majority of owners could it? Would your perception have been different if you were running it around Texas World speedway, or Road Atlanta all week in the Camaro? Likely.

Someone alert the Camaro owners to avoid hitting the AX, road course, or drag strip, Mustangs will own you.

 

I remember reading an interview with Don Petersen (the then Ford CEO) in the late '80's, on the first letter he opened regarding the subject of a FWD Mustang. It had the salutation: Dear A$$hole.

I think that there is a difference between trying to do the right thing (even if you're wrong), and not being able to do the right thing. Remember GM was working on GM80 back then.

 

That is pure awesomeness!

 

Of course. And I've beat up on both Ford and DaimlerChrysler as well as GM.

And, as was pointed out, you almost ended up with a Camaro and Firebird that were based on GM's midsized front wheel drive cars.

A bit of trivia for you:

That DOHC V6 that wound up in Chevy Luminas was developed as the top power plant for both the GM-80 Camaro and Firebirds.

OK, fair enough. I'll rephrase.

There are more Mustang enthusiasts than Camaro enthusiasts.
There are more Mustang customers that personalize or modify their cars than Camaro customers.
I've been a multiple owner of Mustangs as well as Camaros, and have been to gatherings of both.

If you are looking at older models, then there are great examples of both. If you look at newer models (and I'm talking before the 7 year "hiatus") there's a big difference.

If you look at newer models (only the past couple of years to be fair), I see far more new Mustangs with modified paint, grilles, body kits, personalized interior tweaks, special exhaust or exhaust tips, window louvers, etc than you see on any new Camaros.

How that clears up things.


That week was hardly my only time using the new Camaro this year. All together, I'd say I've had use of a 5th gen for a total of at least 30 days this year so far.

I've talked to other owners (something that can't be helped if 2 5th gens and their drivers end up within a block of each other, let alone the same parking lot), and I'm pretty comfortable with my observations.

Keep in mind that if one does nothing but hang out at race tracks, then that doesn't give you an accurate view of what's going on.

The number one reason people buy Camaro (once you discount the rabid enthusiasts) is exterior styling. Period.

With Mustang is image.... and that image isn't centered around just appearence.


Actually, last years 4.6 Mustang GT did "own" the Camaro SS in a road course in Automotive, Car & Driver, let alone the new 5.0.

As far as the drag strip, seems you take my remarks and exaggerate them quite a bit.

Yes the Boss will abolutely OWN the Camaro SS. And on anything but an extended straight line, even the 5.0 GT can dust off an SS.

I also said that for crusing, the Camaro is the better car. It looks great, it's as solid as a tank, it has a drivetrain that idles at freeway speed and is undoubtedly quick.

No, the Camaro SS isn't a Challenger R/T. The R/T is severely under-tired, has an over-aggressive traction control system that allows burnouts but not aggresive driving, and is tuned more for comfort than being thrown around a course. Camaro can make a good show on a course, can be driven aggressively, and has both the traction control and the manumatic programs that put more spirited driving control in your hands.

But is Camaro as tossable and as rewarding to drive as the current Mustang when you're feeling assertive?

Unless you mean base V6 to base V6, then no.

 

My comment was a rebuttal to your statement of which you laid out with GM's on-off investment and strategic direction and vision for Camaro specifically.

Merely highlighting manufactuers at times have all in one time or another questioned the direction of their pony cars. Nothing more than that.

What are the numbers that support these statements? Does SEMA or the manufacturers publish something?

Respectfully, we tend to see or take note what we want to see. Somehow extrapolating what a person sees and takes note of is somehow directly relational to the actual numbers as a whole for the entire market is slight a reach with little validation.

As you are welcome to your observations as well as anyone else, that certainly doesn't solidify as scientific results for an entire market historical from the respected owners and models in scope.

If one has nothing but perception without real supporting numbers it makes ones observations and opinion and void of supporting fact from the entire market capturing all Mustang and Camaro customers/enthusiast.

So now we're talking about stock vehicles, not enthusiast modified ones? Little confused as the references here keep going back and forth.

Where there not other evaluations of the 4.6 Mustang versus the Camaro SS where the Camaro came out on top?

The story isn't finished with Mustang performance as you just showcased with with the Boss and GT, yet at the same time it doesn't look like Camaro is finished with it's story as well Z28 and Alpha. The Mustang was owned for a number of years by F-Body performance, yet it didn't dominate or diminish Mustang in a negative way, it made the breeds better. This now with GT, Boss, GT500, etc will be much of the same with the roll reversed, until GM steps forth with new performance product, Z28 and Alpha based Camaro.

 

I don't really understand this. The new base Mustang has about the same advantages over the base Camaro as the 5.0GT has over the SS. Especially when you consider that you can get a real handling package on the base Mustang.

Better handling, better acceleration, better braking, better fuel economy, better interior, better electronics. Is the ride over uneven ground in the Camaro (ie its IRS) really enough to make up for everything else?

 

When the choices are between the Camaro SS and the Mustang GT, I rank the Mustang GT well ahead of the Camaro SS. I even rank the Challenger R/T on par with the SS.

When ranking the V6s, Mustang, Camaro, and Challenger, I choose the Camaro, hands down no contest. Even with the Mustang V6 being quicker.

Here's why.

Since Ford jacked up the price of base Mustangs to spitting distance of the V6 Camaro, you have to look at the value of what's being offered. Mustang V6 will hand a V6 Camaro it's head on a silver platter in acceleration.

The Mustang V6 also has better interior materials.

But then you run into a brick wall.

The V6 Camaro has IRS and better handling characteristics (in base form). Camaro's exterior styling will also still stop traffic. Even though Camaro's slower than the Mustang V6, it is by no measure a slouch.

You buy a Mustang V6 and your fun stops at about 110 mph. Might be fine for the freeways of the northeast, but it's a near hazard out in the rural interstate freeways of California, Arizona, Neveda, and New Mexico. Nothing more than a rim and tire option tops your V6 Camaro at 157 mph.


When you jump to the SS versus GT contest, the same value versus cost comes into play, and the Camaro SS simply (IMO) doesn't rate the same spectacular value the V6 does. Consider these items:

a. You get the same styling as the $23k Camaro, so the styling argument goes out the window.
b. You get the same IRS, so that also goes out the window.
c. You get the same braking capacity (check most tests of both the SS and the V6 and you'll notice both stop in roughly the same distances despite the V6 having GM brakes and the SS's being sorced from Brembo.

The big difference between the 22K V6 and the 32K V8 is the engine.

Bit the big issue at the $32,000 mark is what do other cars in that price range look like?

At that price range, every car has good interior materials. Mustang GT makes a good attempt (and remember, it's about a grand cheaper than the SS). Camaro's (though it's interior is acceptable at 23 grand) is unacceptable at 32 grand.

Yes, the car has first rate acceleration, but how is it in all other catagories? Handling? Stopping? General feel? Ease of driving hard? Mustang walks all over the Camaro SS.

The Challenger R/T, although it's dashboard is a bit of a yawn, is made of stuff that feels a bit more higher quality than the hard (and in some areas, almost brittle feeling) plastics inside the Camaro. The Challenger offers plenty of rear seat space, and it's trunk is bigger than an Impala. Sure it's not as quick as an 5th gen SS, and it's handling electronics and it's near worthless tire size and grip makes tire upgrades and cracking the traction control computer the 1st order of business. But it nicely near LS1 acceleration and it's the perfect car for both crusing and the occasional freeway grand prix.

Camaro SS is a good, quick, and fast car. But it's not that impressive. It's no quicker and faster than the last GTO, it doesn't handle as well, and it gets worse fuel economy. Last years slower Mustang GT will eat it alive on any handling course that doesn't have a lot of straightaways. This year's Mustang GT will simply leave it for dead.

But the V6 Camaro, although the Mustang V6 is quicker, it isn't even going to touch Camaro V6's top speed no matter what options you buy. It's not going to have the handling sophistication or braking of the Camaro V6 unless you spring for the handling package. Short of crusing with Catherine Zeta-Jones topless in the passenger seat, you simply won't stop the traffic the Camaro's body will stop.

That's why while I am less than impressed with the SS, I give high praise to GM and the Camaro V6.

There simply isn't a car on the planet I can name that provides as big of a value for your money as the Camaro V6.

The Camaro SS is simply a matter of priorities and what you're willing to compromise on.

 

I'm not disagreeing with your conclusions about the V8, but I do have to disagree with some of the statements about the V6's. I'll try to address them in the same order for simplicity's sake.

Acceleration: Yes Mustang V6 is a bit quicker. Interestingly enough, it isn't more than a few tenth's in the 1/4mi in most mag comparisons. But while on the topic of acceleration, Mustang has LSD available with the auto, as well as optional rear gears for auto and manual.

Interior: Agree Mustang interior materials are better. We could argue about the design, I think Mustang's is better. But you left out that there are more interior features available on the Mustang than on the Camaro. Sync, Nav... can't get anything like that in Camaro except OnStar which is a paid service and doesn't have a screen. You can also get the silly multicolored instrument thing in the Mustang, and regardless of its value you can't really get anything like that in Camaro... I guess some of the ambient Camaro interior lighting is neat too and is a bit different than Mustang. Rearview camera, power passenger seat. The Camaro does get a sunroof option that is cheaper than the Glass Roof in the Stang, and the auto does get buttons for shifting unlike in the Mustang. Visibility is better in the Mustang. As far as everyday features go, the Mustang is superior.

Handling and IRS: Ok Camaro has IRS. There aren't very many solid reviews of the base Mustang. However, with the performance package, it is rated superior to the Mustang GT, which in turn is better than both Camaros. On base 17's with 215 rubber I bet it isn't the best handling car ever. Nor is the Camaro LS. They have optional 18's on the Mustang, as well as the 19's that are available with the performance package. Maybe give the nod to Camaro in handling over uneven pavement, maybe give it the nod in ride comfort, but it does not out handle Mustang on smoother surfaces and it also does not brake better. In Edmund's test, Camaro RS 60-0mph 111ft, Mustang w/ perf package 60-0mph in 103ft.

In general you see a lot of comments like this:
Unfortunately I do not know how quickly the Mustang stops with the "base V6" brakes and wheels. The brakes have been improved since 2010, but that is all I know. However as shown above the Mustang V6 with GT brakes (in the perf package) utterly destroys the Camaro RS in stopping distance from 60mph. Even if the base Mustang stops worse than a Camaro V6 the availability of upgraded brakes that trounce the Camaro's gives it an advantage.

Speed: Sure the Camaro does have a higher limiter than the 113mph one in the Mustang. As a resident of Texas, I understand a desire to drive quickly on the interstate, but 99.9999% of the population has no need to exceed 113mph on any public road in the United States. I also am skeptical about the assertion that someone doing 110mph on a public freeway is more of a hazard than someone doing 150mph (or even 120mph). And I am sure if you really need to exceed 113mph in the Mustang that there is some tuner out that that can oblige.

As far as the final thoughts, sure the Mustang isn't as great to look at as the Camaro. It has a solid rear end and not IRS. It has a lower top speed. But I think that if you say the Mustang GT is superior to the Camaro SS you have to say the same about the base cars since they direct comparisons net pretty much the same result in every category.

 

All items you bring up are very good and valid points, and honestly there is very little there that I really disagree with.

Mustang V6 does come with a lot more goodies on the option list.

Mustang V6 with the handling package simply rocks.

You are correct in that I myself tend to cruise around 110 to 115 on most long distance runs out here (with the cruise control set around there, a slight tap on the brakes send my Camaro to 90...CHP targets 88mph+ drivers on many roads... quickly without touching the brakes). However, I do occasional blasts to the 130 range when no other cars are around, and the next curve, bridge, or hiding place is visually many miles away.

But looking at base level cars, and the single wheel and tire option you need to get on a base Camaro w/ manual 6 speed tranny, and what other vehicles are around at that $23K price, it's simply unbeatable.

BUT.... yes, I will concede that when you start adding options, Mustang's V6 has the cooler and far better options list. You can certainly have a nicer and more potent V6 Mustang than Camaro.

 

Man, talk about green with envy... sigh.. Although on a good day heading toward DC on 95 you can get away with 85-90, well on a very good day.

 

Yeah this is what I am sort of hung up on a bit, but it really could be remedied if GM could just figure out a way to offer the same amount of options on a Camaro that you can get on a Mustang. Why can't they offer a suspension package? Why can't you get navigation? Maybe with the redesign in the interior they can add a few more features like a space for an LCD nav.

While on the subject of options, Ford does not offer the performance package on the automatic cars. You do get LSD and can get the 3.31's on the auto. If you are dead set an an auto, the Camaro might be more appealing if you can live without stuff like Sync or Nav. And if you want in your face styling as opposed to improved acceleration. The odd part is that while it seems the Mustang in some ways seems more configurable for performance whereas the Camaro is optimized for cruising or touring, you get the steering wheel shift buttons for an auto in a Camaro but that is not available in the Mustang. Might have something to do with wringing out the fuel econ numbers in the auto (which is where they get the 31mpg, not the stick).

Really all the Ford performance parts for the Mustang V6 aren't really anything specifically developed for that car. The handling package is GT wheels, tires, suspension (except notably the shocks), and I'm sure the gears and LSD are shared with the GT as well. Why can't GM offer SS suspension (and brakes) on the V6? Why can't the automatic get LSD when it is in the manual?

Just seems like there are so many minor things that could be offered that would boost Camaro significantly. Chief among them suspension packs so enthusiasts can get more of what they want, and so they can supply press cars so equipped as Ford does with the Mustang...

 

If the Boss is supposed to be going after the M3, the M3 better step it's game up:

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...son/index.html

Vids

Drag Race: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muRC7WJHgmA

Road track : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muRC7WJHgmA