The base Camaro can be a lame duck IMO. People buying V6 Camaros are buying them for style and economy. If they say their buying them for performance, they should be taken out back and shot IMO.

If the Monte SS is 240 HP, them make the base Camaro 220-230 HP. I was basing my numbers on current 2003 model power ratings. Certainly if the Cobra has 500 HP (I seriously doubt it as Ford isn't stupid enough to give the Cobra the same HP as the $100K+ GT, or are they?) then the Z/28 should be in the same ball park.

I am merely saying that the Camaro line should model the Mustang line when it comes back, because that is our competition.

Camaro V6 >= Mustang V6
Camaro SS >= Mustang GT
Camaro Z/28 >= Mustang Cobra

Plus.... if this happens in 2007, I propose that the 40th Anniversary package be a trim package that could be applied to any Camaro package. My choice would be special Hugger Orange paint and special "40th Anniversary Camaro" badges.

Why? Because it will be the 40th Anniversary of the mark... although it won't be the 40th edition of any of the models.



Let's keep this going... I'm having fun!

 

I totally agree with you. What does everyone think about having the base V8 as an option on the base camaro? Like the base was optional on the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gen cars. Maybe like an 80's LX 5.0. Stripped with just a V8 manual and a LSD (that would be cool). The other thing I haven't heard is that, they all should be easily modified. Unlike the 4th gen (half of the motor was under the firewall).

 

I agree that the Camaro line should model the Mustang line to a degree when it comes back that is why I and most people think the V6 should put out about 240HP, The next gen base mustang is rumored to be around 250HP. Lets also not forget that the V6 Camaro will be competing for sales with cars like the Status R/T, RSX, Eclipes and others. If people think that the Camaro is a lame duck they will buy another car. V6 cars make up the bulk of the sales, if they don't sell well then that means less money for the Camaro line and less money to invest into V8 and special edition Camaros . The sucsess of the V6 car is very important to the Camaros survival.

I'd love Hugger Orange 40th Anniversary Camaro!!!

 

IMO the people that buy the Stratus R/t,RSX,Eclipse ect. are just looking for a sporty looking car first and the performance second. IMO even the base V6 camaro should be a real perfomance car. There is no exuse if it isn't, an example of this is the SRT/4 you can probably pick one up for $16g's.

 

You may very well be right about the type of buyer of Stratus R/T and such, but I think a new Camaro does need to bleed off some of these buyers... the customer base has to come from somewhere, and other than Mustang, there are not any RWD V8 cars in the price range anymore... so ... if they don't like Mustang, they may be forced into a car like Stratus R/T.

On top of that, even if they reallt are not performance-first people, they may be drawn to Camaro by styling and features.

 

Exactly my point. The base V6 Camaro should come standard with power windows, locks and seats, cruise control, a great stereo system, get almost 30 mpg, and be available in a convertible. People buying the base Camaro want style and luxury, NOT performance.

There's no way that combination will be priced under $20K. The base Camaro isn't in the same category as the compact rice rockets and there's no way they should be compared to them.

If there's stripper model it should be a base V8, not the V6.

 

If you are talking about who I think you are, I will vouch 100%, he's very much a Camaro guy. Though him & I don't agree on some things, his commitment is the one thing I don't question. I disagree with the Camaro as a Corvette with a token back seat view, or that the SS should surplant the Z28, but that's an issue all Camaro enthusiasts have to vote on.

Z28 was the top model from a standard engine standpoint. But SS has the horsepower most years & the torque, so it can be credibly debated "our Camaro guy", and is.... very hotly.

I agree 100% that Z28 IS Camaro, while SS is just a generic name. Last I checked, this site wasn't called "CamaroSS.com", and personally I feel that point may be lost to some.

But in all fairness, a Camaro SS today would be exactly like the 4th gen Camaro SS. But the SS would have an optional 6.0 liter V8, while Z28 would share Z06's LS6. While Ford is doing something like this with Mustang's engine lineup, but it seems GM would rather cut off a body part than consider multiple V8s in a Camaro.



Darth has a good point. The "Z" designation was always an option number that happened to be pasted on the side of the car.

 

Point taken about the "Z" designation. But ALL those Z designations mean the are either the top perfomance model (Z06, ect.) or top performance package (Z52, ect.) . In my eyes "SS" has always been a trim package with either no perfomance upgrades or small upgrades. If I'm not mistaken didn't some 1st/2nd gen SS's even have straight sixes in them? While were at it I don't ever remember seen any car tests or in-person for that matter a 4thgen SS out performing the Z28. In fact (correct me if I'm wrong) the Z always produced better times because it wieghed less.

 

I think there needs to be a statute of limitations on what new cars can due based on automotive history. Just because chevy did somthing for 1-3 years 40 years ago doesn't mean they should or shouldn't do it today. The Vette had a 6 cyl. at one time but I don't think we should ever see a 6 cyl. Vette again.

Lets focus on Chevys since 1990 for example, just about all SS meant performance upgrades.

1991 454SS = upgrade from 350 to 454
94-96 Impalla SS = upgrade to LT1
96-2002 Camaro SS = more HP,upgraded exhust,Ram Air, wider tires.
00-03 Monte SS = spoiler
2004 Monte SS = supercharged V6 (they finall got it right)
2004 Impala SS = supercharged V6
03-04 Silverado SS = upgrade from 285HP to 345HP 6.0L V8

These cars are fresher in peoples minds than cars made 40 years ago.

It would just be bad marketing to have the SS the top performance model in every car/truck but not the camaro. It would confuse non-chevy people. THe SS CAmaro should also have more HP than the 4th Gen, which had 345HP with all SLP options in 2002.

My vote would be to have the Z28 and SS both have the same 390HP 6.0L V8, but have different body kits and some differnet options.

 

Actually... the SS ugraded the 3.4 V6 to the 3.8 V6, giving a boost to 200hp from 180... also, the 'nice looking' (IMO) middle length ground effects, spoiler, foglamps, SS wheels, bigger tires, tighter suspension, upgraded guage cluster... etc etc etc...

Actually you get a good group of equipment for the money.

It's a great car, just not a RWD V8 barnstormer.

Sorry... gotta defend my wheels!!

 

That's absolutely right. Z/28 IS Camaro. I'll tell you how passionately I feel about this.....I love all Camaros, but if GM screws up the Z/28 or deletes it, I will NOT buy a Camaro. There! I said it.


I think that if Camaro SS and Z/28 were completely faithful to their heritage, the SS would come standard with the 4.8 and have the Silverado SS/Escalade 6.0 optional for a handful of cars. My '70 SS was pretty spartan. No gauges (just speedo, fuel gauge and idiot lights), 14" wheels with hubcaps and zero power accesories. I think my SS350 probably ran low 16's in the 1/4 mile.

The thing that was sort of neat about previous SS's was that you could build them anyway you wanted. Most chose to build them as "cruisers"....not "road warriors".

The Z/28, of course would come ...as you stated...standard with an LS6.

 

this is out of the latest issue of motor trend, on pg 88 under the new mustang picture


"Engine choices (for the new mustang) appear to include a 3.5 210-250hp DOHC v6 for base versions and a 270-310hp V8 for the GT. A 390-400hp SVT Cobra will follow 12-18 months after the new mustang his the market in late summer or early fall of 2004."

i think those are EXCELLENT numbers. lets remember what the camaro REALLY is guys... its a cheap, fun, ponycar. all this talk of 400 and 500hp versions is just dumb IMO. unless it is a special limited production version, to spark interest, IE mach 1.

the camaros numbers should be right in line with these numbers. although i do question a need to compete with the Cobra (because of big brother corvette). but thats just me

remember, with the 5th gen, GM is basically starting from scratch (we hope). it needs to make a name for itself, be styled well, and perform well. look at ford, the mustand GT does not boast tremendous numbers, but it is a cheap, fun car to drive and modify, AND (heres the clincher, heh) SELLS WELL. and THIS is where the F4 blew it. make a fun v6, maybe about 230hp. make a middle v8 280hp (also with this, y not do stuff like the 350z? a track edition, etc) and then make a top of the line v8 with 320ish hp.

hp numbers right out of the box are cool, but look at ALL the other sporty cars, they dont have tremendous numbers, but people buy them because they are relatively inexpensive and can easily be MADE to have high numbers (see WRX,SRT-4, Mustang GT, hell, even Celicas, Civics, Eclipses, etc).....from doing a lot of reading on this board, too many people are concerned with high numbers right off the floor. but i ask you, where is the fun in that? what r u gunna do to make those camaro's faster, or more personalized, or just things to play with? not to mention to rediculous cost.

also look at all the people buyin 3rd gens, 5.0's, and DSM's. they are cheap and can be made pretty damn quick for not that much money.

also if they address the weight issue, high hp numbers out of the box wont matter as much.

so in closing

base v6 = 230ish hp
mid v8 = 280ish hp (make track, comfort, or other varients like the 350z)
top v8 = 320ish hp

but they all MUST (and i really stress must) have a good aftermarket to enhance the image, fun, and sales of all 3 models.

any thoughts?
-EriC

 

I disagree with you guys saying people don't buy the base model camaros for performance....I enjoy the performance of my 3.8 v6, and I appreciate the fact there are aftermarket parts available to make it go faster......I have a perfect driving record, and my insurance company and others I checked with wont even insure me if i was to buy a "high performance" model camaro (z28/ss). which is why we need different engine choices for the base model, maybe not a V8, but maybe an OPTIONAL supercharger for the V6 to get it moving ALMOST as well as the next model up V8 car. If some people mover can go faster why even bother with a camaro!? might as well drive a honda civic or something then.

The Z/28 and SS should always be on top, no doubt about that, but it would be foolish for GM to make the Camaro slower than the competition....I have no doubt in my mind they will NOT make this mistake, or if they do the car will flop quickly.

Personally, I see GM using the SS as the top-of-the-line model, and the z28 as the step below, as that has seemed to be how it has been done the majority of last two decades or so. (thirdgen had the iroc in place of the SS of course). I would not be object either way though.

 

But the IROC-Z was a.....Z28. IROC-Z28.

 

Your post made me notice the url to this forum/board. http://web.camaroSS.com/forums/. Sounds like they aren't playing favorites
.