OK, I can understand all that, and I would agree, but here's the kicker:

What price range is there that there is not a domestic choice?

The person who chooses a Civic coudl choose a Cobalt, the person what chooses a Titan can choose a F150... etc etc.

I would wholeheartedly agree if there were no domestic alternative in a given price range, but I can't think of a range where that would be the case...?

 

A car with a manual transmission and AWD.

 

Are you saying we should only buy an "American" nameplate, then, even if the "Foreign" is less expnsive, or of better quality or better able to meet the needs of the person buying it? What about style preferences, handling, etc, etc...Just because there is a domestic choice does not mean it's the best choice for a particular individual buying it.

 

There are very few, if any, types of cars or trucks that you can't get a domestic equivilent for the same price or cheaper.

Better Quality? It's not the issue that foreign fans want to make it. About the ONLY arguement left that holds ANY water is interior material quality.... and even I'll admit that domestics have lagged behind here. However, strides have been made. Find me a better truck interior than the new F150...

Styling preferences? I suppose one could perfer the styling of an import to a domestic... but unless you're buying a sports car, styling isn't THAT important...

Again, IMO, it's just a matter of using any excuse to justify buying foreign.

I could understand if you just can't get what you want from a domestic nameplate, but there are few, if any, instances of that.

 

But you and everyone else have still failed to prove that buying a domestically "owned" brand helps the US economy any more than a foreign "owned" brand that is built domestically.

If somebody shows me hard numbers that have been researched by an unbiased, reputable source, then I'll reconsider my position.

 

No, actually, I see this whole thread as an excuse NOT to buy foreign. Everybody has to have some reason to dislike the foreign automakers, and the "US loyalty" thing is the favorite.

I don't need an excuse, because I do not buy new cars anyway. I own two GM products and one Nissan, all used, all built in North America. I'm not arguing from a position of defending my preferences or my actions, I am arguing from a principled position IMO.

 

2 quick things:

- just looked at the content sticker of a G6. 95% of it came from North America. I would say that was an American car.

- I am a UAW member and I am sick & tired of all the anti-union bullsh*t!!
I work my *ss off every day. If you non-union people had any clue about a union, you'd have nothing to talk about.

 

And the last time I checked, the dealers had 123 days worth inventory of Pontiac G6s.


All I know is that the Mississippi "scabs" that build my vehicle aren't forced to pay dues to a union that financially backs the Democratic party. I resent the fact that the simple act of purchasing a UAW-built vehicle indirectly supports Howard Dean's Democratic agenda. The UAW membership should get their priorities straight and get out of the political arena.

 

WTF are you talking about?

 

He's talking about the fact that nearly 100% of Union political donations in this country go to support Democrats even though union members vote 40% GOP.

They have no say in how their union dues are used. That's taxation w/o representation, and we fought a war over that once.

 

Here's a new concept for you to think about...

Suppose you claim that you have an anti-gravity machine.
I say you don't.
You insist that you do, but don't want to show it to anyone yet.

In the rules of debate (and science), the default position is that NOTHING IS ASSUMED TO EXIST OR FUNCTION BY DEFAULT, IT MUST BE PROVEN.
In the case above, it is not MY responsibility to prove that you DON'T have an anti-gravity machine.
It is YOUR responsibility to prove you DO - or else your claim is rejected by default. Producing the machine and demonstrating it will prove your claim.

Back to the topic of the thread - you made the claim that globalization has made our nation stronger, better, wealthier, etc. SO YOU SHOW ME.

I don't have to provide you with some "data" or 3rd party "report" that itemizes and details how domestic reinvestment is better for domestic economy. There is 229 years of physical evidence all around you claiming that sovereignty and self-development are successful ways to grow safe and secure - independent of other nations.
Did you ever learn anything from HISTORY?!?!
We were not buying 60% of our everyday wares from overseas back in 1880!
We did not farm out our ship-building in 1914!
We did not buy vehicles from overseas in 1945!
We did not import Levis in 1920!
We did not import our atomic technology in 1941!
We did not import our Nuclear technology in 1964!
We did not import radio technology in 1935!
We did not import radar technology in 1940!
The US pioneered industry, with railroads, steel mills, rubber, textiles, chemicals, agriculture, etc. and became strong because of it. We are still going on that strength 50-100 years later, but it is now waining due to this wonderful globalization process (aka GREED in my book).

Let me explain something to you clearly...
Since our nation declared it's independence from British rule on July 4, 1776, we became the superpower of the world. We did it with blood, sweat, and tears, and we did it ALONE. Oh sure, we traded with other nations, but we did it on OUR terms, not theirs. They NEEDED our trade to support THEIR economies, not the other way around.

We are living today on the hard work and fundamentals paid by our predecessors, and what pisses me to no end is how carelessly the Me-Generation is blowing it all away without so much as a second thought. For the last 30 years, the only issue these money-mongers care about is their bottom line - no matter what the price to native land or citizens.
To them, Profit Rules and nothing else matters.

Today, nations trading with us LAUGH at us. We are rich and dumb - the perfect market for them. They refuse to pay tariffs. They find loopholes to get their products into America without paying taxes. They dump their sub-quality products here at hideous prices, putting our lives at potential risk. And we give them money for catastrophies and charity on top of continuing to let them send their crap here to sell. This is BULLSH1T!!!

And if all else fails, they open a plant here and claim they are helping us out by hiring American workers. Bullsh1t again.
I applied at ASMO Corporation in Statesville NC when I graduated with my second degree in engineering. They build window and seat motors for Toyota, Honda, Nissan, and numerous other companies. They were interested in me, but not for my engineering degree - they wanted a tool and die maker (which I have an apprenticeship). They brought me in for testing and I scored perfect in their aptitude and capability tests. The put me on a lathe in their shop to make a part - gave me 45 minutes - I was done in 30. When they called me in to make me an offer (of $12/hour which is rediculous for a CNC machine programmer with T&D experience) I asked about opportunity for advancement. They said I would likely move onto a production supervisor's role in 3-5 years. I told them I meant Engineering or plant management. They haggled and squirmed. I finally pinned them down, and was told that all engineering and management was done by corporate offices in Japan, and they send their staff over here to fill vacancies in those positions. I told them thanks, but no thanks - I deserved better. And I left.
So they offer a person with T&D experience, a ***-laude Mechanical Engineer, PE, and 8 years of university education a job at $12/hour and refuse to allow that person to attain a position of responsibility in their company. Oh yeah, they are definitely here to help us Americans.

Don't take it personally Chris, because we have been here before on this issue - you and I. You are entitled to do what you like with your money.
I've spent a lot of time doing business in Mexico. Real estate is a steal in Mexico right now, you can have a 7000 sq-ft home in a gated country club for about US$100k. You could have all the cars you want - no taxes, no inspections, etc. Beer is about US$.50 a bottle - good beer too like Corona, Tecate, DosEquis, etc. If VALUE is your thing - GO THERE!!! Action speaks louder than words dude! Why stay here in the expensive US? Why pay taxes? Why put up with crabby old Democrats and Independents that don't want big businesses to monopolize everything? Mexican policy is to get as much good export stuff as they can - you'd fit right in down there! They just stopped importing/selling the original VW Beetle down there about 3 years ago!

So do what you want, but do me a favor and stop asking me and other Patriotic people to prove something to you. My father, grandfather, great-grandfather, and ancestors before them HAVE ALREADY PROVEN IT. You and I are the lucky bastards that are fortunate enough to be living here in the USA today and making this choice to debate on line because of what they did before you and I were itching in our daddy's pants. If you want to prove to me that globalization is some kind of salvation to me - knock yourself out, but don't try to do it with "market analyst's reports", "square-footage of homes", or "average salaries". That crap plays right back into the statement I made last time about "anybody can make numbers say anything they want to".

Instead, I challenge YOU to prove your claim... Show me how my life is better today because China is dumping unsafe windshields in the US market, killing profits and forcing plant closings for companies like PPG, LOF, and Carlite.
(I strongly suggest you read THIS ARTICLE before you start harping on the details.)
Or THIS briefing...
Quote - "We believe that the petitioning manufacturers are as efficient as anyone in the industry, but we do not believe that anyone can produce and ship replacement windshields at prices we're seeing from China without losing money," Goudy said. "If China's domestic market were open and subject to the same profit discipline we are," he continued, "we could take the competition to their market. Unfortunately, their market is closed to imports and their production distorted by central planning, and we are the victims. Our petition is the remedy provided by law and international agreements to restore competitive market balance when foreign producers dump products in the U.S."

And if you want the whole story behind this ONE instance, be prepared to read for a while ... Entire Court Record of Case
BTW, the US companies won the ITC petition.
Quote - "Officials with PPG Industries (NYSE:PPG) said they are pleased with today's 3-2 vote by the U.S. International Trade Commission that affirms imports of automotive replacement glass windshields from China are causing material injury to the domestic industry."

Hey, know what, I guess that DOES prove my case that "globalization" and imports can be harmful to the US economy and citizens, doesn't it?!?! At least according to the International Trade Commission anyways.

FWIW, I had the windshield replaced in my Explorer last year, and I specifically asked for a PPG unit. I was told it was not Safelite's "default unit" for my model, but they did carry PPG. After they asked why I had a preference, they obliged with no problem. It cost me nothing extra, I got a windshield I know is safe, and the people working at PPG's Allison Park glass plant got a sale. THAT'S what I call buying domestic, and making my money work here at home, and THAT'S what I think American's need to do more of.

I don't lead by rhetoric, I lead by example.

I REST MY CASE.

 

Well, my arguement would be based on the assumption (don't knwo where I could find numbers, if at all) that domestic "brands" employ more Americans, and use more domestically designed and built parts and subassemblies.

I think I am fairly safe in assuming that is true... but I admit I do not have any numbers ot back it up... I love to see thwe numbers though. It sure would help one side or the other.

I suppose that is the opposite side of the coin... a fair point. However, I still have to assume that more Americans are supported via the domestic brands than imported brands.

I just can't see how a Japanese nameplate, for example, employs and supports and overall higher amount of Americans than a domestic one does...

 

So this is why you're mad at the Japanese automotive industry?

 

I don't think PP ever said he was "mad" at the Japanese auto industry, just that A) He does not and will not support it and B) Doesn't understand why people quickly accept the US-built Toyota Camry, for example, as being a "domestic" automobile. There is a difference.

 

Proud Pony:
Dude I'm like you; I have 3 kids, a wife just finishing her Master's degree in buisness b/c all the recent "back-wash" of highly educated people into jobs they are truly overqualified for, leaving no room for "just a BA degree" anymore! I own a home that costs roughly one year's salary, my newest car is a '95 model (ALL GM !) with a combined annual income of just under 90K; AND I AM STILL LIVING FROM WEEK TO WEEK!!!!!!!!!
My father-in-law, btw, lost over $35K in the last 2-years on his 401K, I had to take mine for hardship after being laid-off 2 times for nearly a year at a time in the last 3 years! And while I was laid off I had many oportunities to see these WONDERFUL NEW JOBS created recently, NONE of which topped the $10/hour mark, NO NOT ONE, and I was required to apply EVERY WEEK per Unemployment! And some required driving more than 45 minutes for under $10/hr....

Are you naive enough to think the "company" that built your vehicle isn't up to its eyeballs in the political arena, promoting legislation to benefit Republican "trickle-down" economics???????????????? (which never "triclkes down"..)Someone ought to be lobbying for the "little man".
They have their priorties right; keeping companies honest, maintaining a "good days wages for a good days work" philosiphy, keeping some dignity in the workplace, forcing companies to provide a safe work environment,(believe me they wouldn't if they didn't have to!..)
Dude, I work building trucks, and am a member of the UAW, and have been for over 10 years!, and I can tell you that if it was not for them, you would make MINIMUM WAGE! with NO BENEFITS, like the "temp hires" our Union tries to prevent working here....it's about giving RESPECT to those who pour out their blood-sweat & tears to make their company THE BEST! AND UNIONS TRY TO DO JUST THAT!!!!(We're not govt workers, 10 watching 1 work...everyone pulls his own weight!)There are days in the summer when my clothes are wet with sweat from the start-up buzzer, to the quitting buzzer. All I ask is some respect for that labor: decent wage, decent health coverage, safe workplace and equal respect as a human being while doing so....(Don't you think that, even those PEOPLE in exploited countries like Mexico deserve that too??)(You know just giving a starving man a "cracker" isn't justified, no matter if he thinks it's the best d@mn cracker he's ever had, which it would be, to him...)

Let's take their hypothetical position on producing for less to its end.
Say EVERY company finds out tomorrow how to produce everything , or provide their services for nearly nothing invested, which IS their ultimate goal, ULTIMATE EFFICIENCY..LEAN ECONOMICS...
Who would be able to purchase their goods or services??????
On what income????From where????
You see, not only must you provide a good or service that is affordable, you MUST protect those who ultimately invest back into you company on a personal level by designing in some FAT, which will allow for future long term growth.
I personally DON'T MIND paying more for a product that is of better quality even though it costs more. It's not the efficient thing to do, it hurts my NOW BOTTOM LINE, but it's a good investment that will pay off over time, plus I'm supporting some skilled person who probably worked hard, and trained hard to provide it to me....