Listen, I'm 30 years old and we've been running a global trade deficit for as long as I've been alive. "at the current rate" implies we are going to eventually go broke or run out of jobs.

But we are better off finiancially as a nation than we've ever been in terms of total number of jobs and average wages, standard of living, etc. Stock market is near all time highs...

Obviously something is creating a dynamic equilibrium or we'd have been drained dry decades ago. Its actually two things, foreign direct investment and job creation through economic growth.

 

Originally Posted by Chrome383Z
Michigan alone has LOST 200k manufacturing jobs to outsourcing (overseas work) in the last 3 years. Open your eye's people...
Chris 96 WS6

And that comment is toatally worthless without know the wages($$) these "New Jobs" offered in comparison to the ones they replaced. I'll tell you most of them were aprox ONE HALF the wages of the jobs they replaced. I love how Bush likes to say he's creating "New Jobs".

Chris 96 WS6

Brother I need to move where you are, cause I'm seeing the opposite here in the "States". We're regressing to the "Sweat-Shop" days, and the only reason you make a decent wage right now is b/c the Unions are fighting companys for them everywhere, if they go you'll be working for MINIMUM WAGE in a VERY short time.....
Chris 96 WS6
I think John Kerry had a good plan, give tax incentives to build here, increase tarrifs on imports.
Chris 96 WS6
Need I remind you that A) Unemployment put limits on benefits, and just b/c people ran out of benefits DOESN'T mean they're not unemployed. B)The people that did go back to work now have to work 2 of these "NEW" jobs to equal what they used to earn...
Actually the BEST place to locate an industry is in a more central location to it's demand. It cuts shipping costs and delivery times..
Well, you got part of it right, the BIG 3 did poor funds handling and planning, NOT the UAW, the Companies. And the Japanese are just now starting to realize the costs of pensions, as they're first wave of employees are becoming eligible. It was another reason the Big 3 had trouble competing, the Japs didn't have the "Overhead" of pensions. "Ridiculous wages"? relative to what? the Regan era were the poorest days I can remember....Don't believe the headlines bro...Disposable cars, maybe??
Aeromaks
Talk about an uninformed statment, you really read too many junk magazines. "Overpaid"? by what measure? By wages in Mexico? Americans just refuse, for the most part, to be "Wage-Slaves" as 3rd world countries. For Globalization to remain viable it will have to undergo major reform, on it's current downward spiral, it WILL self destruct! When the average consumer can NO LONGER afford the goods produced, it will implode...(Let's see: Lower wages=tougher sales and competition=lower wages.=.....=....=.....=....=......)

 

In Mexico, our engineers (with BSME and BSEE degrees) make $19/day. That's insane.

While I was there, you could see corruption everywhere. You don't go to the cops to report a burglery or a car accident, because they don't care. US $20 got our group out of a car accident AND a speeding ticket within one week in two separate instances. I was dumbfounded.

The other thing you will see BLATANTLY is that there are the "Haves" and the "Have-Nots". There is no middle class in Mexico. You are either dirt poor living in a lean-to, or you are stinking wealthy.
THAT is what comes from economics that are uncontrolled. I want no part of it.
"Wage-Slaves" wasn't a bad term - I might use that one again some time.

One other thing I didn't detect yet in this onslaught of politics and policy...
The foreign companies that built plants here in the states did so to gain an IMMEDIATE financial benefit. They were able to circumvent the tarriffs and excise taxes that are implemented at port when goods are passes through customs. Some tarriffs were adding $3k to $6k on average cars/trucks like Camry or Accord. If you are selling 80k units/year - that adds up fast. Not to mention the tax incentives that state/local districts are offering for major manufacturers to locate these days - sometimes in the ten of millions of dollars. THOSE are IMMEDIATE financial releifs guys - not long-term returns.

 

This whole post makes me sick too, and puts this insane pressure in my head that people this smart don't get it. If you support a company from another country, it is not the same as supporting one from your own. Such a simple conclusion some people here refuse to grasp. IS IT THAT HARD?

Guys, keep buying your imports, ok? Keep justiyfing it to yourselves. I know how free trade, unemployment, wage levels and such affect micro and macroeconomies. Simple logic however states buying a GM or a Ford is supporting more American workers and helping an ever-eroding trade deficit MORE than buying a Honda. And while I keep saying that (as have others), people dance around it and talk about how wonderful free trade is.

Go ahead guys...keep buying your imports. My head hurts, and I'm done with this thread...

 

If my job ever got shipped overseas, I'd just FIND ANOTHER JOB. Don't forget the FREE in Free Market.

Robert made a good point, you guys can find anecdotal evidence till the cows come home but those sob stories don't prove anything except that progress is a mixed bag. But protectionism is a worse mixed bag.

I don't really see the difference in a domestically assembed Japanses car and a Domestically assembled GM car. Yes the "profits" stay here...but do they? Show me how the "profits" actually benefit anyone in the US?

Find for me where GM's profits actually did diddly squat to help the US? You can't, because those profits don't go into the system the same way supplier contracts and labor costs do. Its a wash.

 

Show me where you got that "fact"....and it needs to be a legit source, not dailykos.com. That's nothing more than speculation supossed as fact.

 

Again, I'm buying GM because many of my friends and family members are connected to the company in some way. Again, for every 1 American that Toyota employs to turn a bolt on an assembly line, GM probably employs 20 line workers, managers, and engineers. (I say "probably" because I don't have the figures available in front of me). I'm born and raised in Detroit. GM, Ford, and now to a lesser extent Chrysler is the lifeblood of the entire region. I'm not sure it's coincidence that Michigan's unemployment rate (~8%) is among the nation's highest. People buy foreign car makes, then turn around and blame the Big Three for having to cost-cut and job-cut, which makes people angry and in turn drives them to buy more foreign makes. Does this make any freaking sense to anyone???????? It doesn't to me!!! So tell me again how GM and Ford going belly-up helps anyone?

Perhaps my attitude would change if that 20-1 ratio became 10-1, or 5-1 or 2-1. Perhaps I'd be more open to owning a Japanese or European ride if they invested more capital and more of their buldging profit into my area. Right now GM is investing millions of dollars sprucing up Detroit's riverfront. They bought the ailing Renessaince Center for their world HQ and are constantly making improvements. The Ford family owns the Detroit Lions and invested hundreds of millions in a beautiful new downtown stadium. I'd sure like to see Toyota or Honda step to the plate and do something tangible like that somewhere in America. But I honestly can't see that happening for a long time. If ever.

 

They do give back. We can argue degree all day but they do give back.

http://corporate.honda.com/america/p...ty_involvement
http://corporate.honda.com/america/p...hropy_programs
http://corporate.honda.com/america/p...da_foundations
http://www.toyota.com/about/operatio...lanthropy.html
http://www.toyota.com/about/diversit...lanthropy.html
http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/COMP...SHIP/ACTIVITY/

FWIW I am not a particular fan of Japanese cars. I like my domestics. But the idea that closing off our borders to protect our domestic jobs and/or companies will actually help anybody in the long run is absurd and has been proven wrong by history. I know it SEEMS heartless to let competition settle it, but then again the road to hell is said to have been paved with GOOD intentions.

Plus I remember what crap detroit produced and passed off as quality in the 80s, and I thank the Japanese automakers for bringing our guys back up to respectability. W/o that competition things would have only gotten worse.

 

I don’t know that there is much more to say here - obviously this is a complicated topic; one that I was hoping we would deal more with fact than with feeling but perhaps that was naïve of me to think it possible.

We seem to have those who feel that “GM/Ford, etc” is “American” and everything else isn’t – they would feel that way even if 95% of the design effort, labor, parts and raw material in a Toyota were domestically produced while in the comparable GM vehicle only 10% was domestically produced; in other words “GM is an AMERICAN company so whatever they produce is AMERICAN; PERIOD!!!.

Then there are some who believe (or at least want to believe) that this is the 1950s or ‘60s when the US domination of the auto industry was so complete that “imports” were nothing more than quaint little toys that would never impede the flow of profits to GM, Ford, American Motors, Chrysler etc and what constituted an “import” was a lot easier to define.

Somewhere in all of this is the truth…that truth that life, especially economic life is a lot more complicated today than our fathers or grandfathers faced. The truth that if you are determined to only “buy American” you are going to have fewer and fewer choices if you are actually honest with yourself about what is and what isn’t “American” (and you’ll need to stay out of Wal-Mart and most other stores for that matter). The truth that competition is good, not bad. The truth that the waves of change happen and we can either embrace it or be swept away by it.

For myself, I'll continue to buy and drive what best suites my needs, wants and pocket book regardless of what nameplate is on the vehicle...if some want to consider me unpatriotic for that, so be it.

At least is was a good discussion, I think.

 

Southern Ontario is just as "centrally located" as Michigan, but the healthcare costs are picked up by the government and the labor laws aren't as hostile towards employers.

 

Mexico is a nasty, scary, corrupt and terribly inequitable country. Guess what? Mexico is going to be left behind in the move towards globalization. You heard it here first. A country like Vietnam offers cheaper and more effective labor than Mexico, and China offers a convergence of decent infrastructure, engineering talent and a motivated workforce.

The only thing that Mexico offers is the future threat of unreasonable union demands. Is it any wonder that VW has halted investment in Mexico in favor of Brazil and China?

Get your mind out of the 1980s. Tariffs are no longer an issue in post-WTO America. For last decade, the Japanese have been investing in domestic capacity to prevent another "Yen-shock" fiasco like the one during the mid-90s. To a less extent, the Germans have been doing the same thing. For companies like Toyota, investing in domestic capacity makes tremendous sense - especially when there are business friendly states that offer big incentives.

 

I'll concede the cheaper and motivated workforce part... but I'll question the engineering talent part.

My brother-in-law just got back from spending 18 months in China. He is an engineer with Goodyear, and was sent there to manage a project that included building a giant tire manufacturing complex.

From what he told me of his experience... there are a ton of workers, who will work for basically nothing. For example, there was a big boulder he needed moved. He asked to have it moved. Instead of a crane coming in and moving it, about 60 people showed up with pick-axes and started chipping away. Eight hours later, the boulder no longer existed. It was cheaper to pay the 60 workers 8 hours of labor than it was to rent a crane for one hour.

On the flip side, Goodyear HAD to send him over to manage the project, because they could not find anyone over there capable of handling the project.

He told me of countless items that were there (it was an existing complex where additions and all-new buildigs were set up) that had to be destroyed because they were so poorly engineered and built.... He had to be VERY hands on with the Chinese engineers because they simply didn't understand a lot of the engineering concepts and how to execute them.

 

A couple of years ago, I would have said that India has a far greater engineering capacity than China. Not any more. India has more engineers per capita, but they just aren't very effective compared to their Chinese counterparts.


1. My best guess about your brother-in-law's experience is that the best Chinese talent was tied up in other projects. China is in a huge building boom and civil engineer are at premium. (Incidentally, I know a couple of genuine American civil engineers that don't "understand a lot of the engineering concepts and how to execute them." After dealing with these lawsuit generating clowns, I wouldn't automatically knock Chinese engineers.)

2. If you look at something like aeronautical engineering, you'd be amazed at how far the Chinese have come in the last few years. In ten years, China has been able to bring one particular project to the threshold of the production (and export!) phase. In twenty years, India has taken a similar project to the technology demonstrator and prototype phases, but initial production is still 5-7 years away.

 

I wish my brother-in-law had the time to read and post here... I have mentioned the site often, but he is very busy traveling and such for Goodyear since he has been back...

Basically, he had to re-do 75% of what was there just to have a base to start what he was supposed to do.

Add to that the fact that he had a staff of Chinese engineers on hand that he was supposed to be able to hand down some tasks to, but after he had to have an entire foundation for one building destroyed and the whole framework of an addition destroyed because of engineering miscalcuations... he just dropped these guys and basically worked 18 hour days the whole time he was over there...

I'm not sure I buy the old "Oh, all the good ones must have been tied up on other projects" arguement...

Goodyear gave him a huge list of things to avoid when in China... in addition to "Girls looking to latch on to Americans", there was a laundry list of items like cable cars, ski lifts, and a million other contraptions that are considered unsafe by Goodyear.

 

I don't whether your brother is a "general purpose, white collar, white person-type" or a long-term expat that has genuine fluency in Mandarin and/or Cantonese. The big problem with doing business in China is that you can't hold onto an American or European mindset.

You have to ask the question of whether a Chinese product manager or developer would have had the same problems?

With the scale of the building boom in China, you can't dismiss the fact that civil engineers are at a premium in China. Of course, I wonder if you brother-in-law was able to differentiate an "incompetant engineer" from a "corrupt engineer?" Either way, the guys your brother-in-law dropped probably didn't lose more than a day's work. After all, civil engineers are at a premium in China....


I'd say that China's highways are are some of the most dangerous in the world. I can't comment on 'Girls looking to latch on to Americans' or the cable cars and ski lifts.