IT IS NOT AN IMPORT IF IT WAS BUILT HERE.

Why is this such a complex concept?

It pisses me off you people are actually questioning the patriotism of someone who would buy a car that's built here just because the name on the trunk is an "import" brand and because supposedly the "profits" go overseas.

What you call import bias in this thread is actually the opposite. I see a lot of reactionary, irrational defense of a "domestic" product that doesn't fit the neat little definitions you want it to anymore.

 

Chris,

And with all due respect, I'm sick of "you people" justifying how A PRODUCT WITH A FOREIGN MANUFACTURER IS A DOMESTIC CAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ITS NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just because it is BUILT HERE does NOT mean its domestic!!!!!!!!! If the profit goes overseas, it is NOT THE SAME AS BUYING A GM OR FORD.

Are we clear on that???? Now you see why I stopped coming in this thread. I'm reactionary because a Honda Accord is not a domestic car solely because it is BUILT HERE.

My argument is simple. There is more domestic benefit to an American built Pontiac than there is an American built Honda. Prove me wrong and I'll shut up. Otherwise, I am completely justified on that standpoint.

 

--------------------

It would appear that you had difficulty with the second grade as anyone who had actually passed it would never make such as condescending and asinine post – I suspect mot of life must be a “mystery” to you, Jason E.

My patriotism goes far beyond the superficial act of “buying an American car”…feel free to laugh at my American flag; I’ll be laughing too loudly at your ignorance to hear you.

 

This topic should end right here.

 

Actually, my Economics degree from UMass Amherst qualifies me plenty for this debate, Mr. Nashville.

Further, my MBA with a focus in international trade REALLY qualifies me for this debate. If you'd like I can fax you my 2 diplomas...I'm looking at them right now.

The only thing condescending was what you just posted, Mr. Nashville. Chris started talking about "you people," which is why I responded, seeing as how I am one of those said people, apparently. Patriotism to me means a lot of things...one thing it means is supporting the products your country makes.

If you don't like it Mr. Nashville, I truly don't care. You stated your opinion, I stated mine. I didn't poke fun at your or Chris...you poke fun at my education. Who's being condescending now? Me laughing at a US flag on the back of a Toyota is my right. You don't like it? I don't care.

The comment was pointed at no one, Mr. Nashville. Maybe I am not the one who needs to grow up.

 

Let me explain a little something about myself. I am a Credit Analyst for TD Banknorth, a large commercial bank in the Northeast. My job is to assess risk with a Borrower, to understand their operations, make recommendations on what types of bank products could help them grow their business, and prepare loan approval documents for approval by Senior Loan Committee.

With that being said, one of the more interesting parts of my job is visiting customers. The most recent visit I made really hit home with me. A local furniture manufacturer who produced futons recently closed down its entire production operations, and is now strictly an importer of foreign-made futons. 36 people lost their jobs. The owner didn't want to do it, but had to. Why? Cheap import knock offs. He couldn't compete anymore because the Chinese derivative is cheaper, and people don't care. And he is not alone. Hundreds of companies across this country continue to downsize because people don't care where products are made. Meanwhile the trade deficit continues to grow, the rich get richer, the poor get poorer, and everyone wonders why. Sure, as I think Chris mentioned, there is a movement in the job market. People can train for new jobs. But the problem is, too many people making $15/hr at a plant end up making $8/hr at Wal Mart. And sure, its easy to say "go get an education", but a lot of these people can't.

If I can support something built in this country, I will. I find it interesting the most angered ones on here are typically the ones driving imports. If you feel that's fine, ok by me. I'm not asking you to drive an American car, and I'm not judging you. I feel its more patriotic to drive American, but you know what? Thats my take on it, and I'm entitled to it. I am tired of watching jobs go overseas. I am tired of watching my friends get laid off. Just yesterday the only textile plant left in Ludlow, MA closed due to foreign competition. Ludlow used to be a hopping textile town years ago, with this one plant hiring over 1,000 workers. Now it laid off its last 50 or so.

I am tired of watching jobs go overseas. I don't care, Robert, if you enjoy your Nissans. Its your right, and I feel no ill will towards you despite my apparent lack of education. But you never answered the simplest question. If I buy a 350Z and a Titan, or I buy a Mustang and an F150, question?

Which one supports America more?

A second grader can answer that one.

 

1. Massachusetts is a terrible state to do business in.

2. A futon is a very, very low end piece of furniture. I don't understand why it's in the interest of society-as-a-whole to preserve America's "Futon Industry?"

If China builds futons better 'n cheaper, let China build the futons.

 

Just curious, how would someone like you show Patriotism??
I hear so much talk about it, but without action, Patriotism is dead...
I believe in "Passive" Patriotism, resistence by non-compliance with the "Main-Stream" schools of thought that "do what you want, buy what you want, it's all the same.." Your purchase power speaks loudly to the only thing they listen to, their profits!..
Tho not "technically" an "import" built product in itself; being of a Foreign Label qualifies it as an import product in origin, Manufacture, design and construction. Much of which parts are still imported from outside the US, whether or not profits go back overseas or to expand domestic operations here to cut our companies out of the market. Let's keep buying Imports and allow their corporations to own more of our country than we do, OK? Viva le NAFTA!!!

 

This has been a truely interesting thread to say the least, Jason! I'm glad at least we can see what's at work here.

To the "other side", I will say to you that an import car by definition used to be a car that originated from another country, that was imported to the states. Thanks to "globalization", the term import car has had to change. Point blank, it's not that simple anymore. Two questions left to you "other siders" went left unanswered. The one Jason recently pointed out, and mine from long ago about how you the Japanese would feel about a Chevy Cobalt being assembled in Japan. You may want to look back if you didn't.

Know why these two questions went unanswered? Jason and I do.

This has two very strong sides to the arguement. I know which side I'm on. And it has nothing to do with considering any Japanese, German, Korean, or any other country's company our own. Period.

 

You, Mr. Jason E. were the one who inferred that those who did not agree with your position was not as smart as a second grader

Did I misquote you? If you don’t like the inference put back upon you than don’t open the door in the first place.


If you insist on throwing degrees around then Ok. I hold two and am working on my third…I hold a BSBA with a major in Accounting, a BPA with a major in Public Fiscal Management, and currently working on a Master in Information Technology Management; those coupled with 24 years in the business world perhaps qualify me to comment in this thread as well although it would take your degrees and mine combined along with a $1.09 (oh well, perhaps a $1.99 in Mass) to get one of us a cup of coffee.

I have no ill-will toward those who want to spend the money they’ve earned to buy domestic nameplate vehicles or whatever other products they wish. But for anyone to suggest that those who do buy only “domestic” nameplates are more “patriotic” than someone who buys a “foreign” nameplate IS a condensing and a particularly obtuse attitude.

I challenge you and all those who hold to your “buy only domestic” position to remove ALL products from your life that is either foreign made or has some foreign content but I suggest that if you really want to buy only “domestic” products you will need to buy a plot of land in the mountains, build a log cabin using the trees nearby and grow your own food, and weave your own cloth for clothing because that is the ONLY way you will not buy “foreign” products and keep the “profits from going overseas”.

And for 90rocz, asking how someone “like me” shows their patriotism - I show my patriotism by going to work every morning and earning my living instead of relying on government hand-outs - I show my patriotism by voting in every election since I turned 18 – I show my patriotism by owning my home and paying my taxes and volunteering for and contributing to several charitable organizations - I show my patriotism by serving eight years of active duty in the USN; five aboard a guided missile cruiser, and putting my life in harms way many times for my country and seeing the death of fellow sailors and marines while on deployment and I show my patriotism by flying the US Flag from my home and yes, even by displaying the US Flag on my 350Z and my Titan; just as I did on all my “domestic” vehicles (even before it became “trendy” to do so)…those are some of the ways I show my patriotism, 90rocz..

 

Ok Bob, got the inference. But I didn't point it at anyone. You did. Capiche? Further, nice to know about all your experience. All I was saying is I'm as qualified as anyone to discuss this topic. All the degrees in the world though don't stop the fact calling me a second grader is an asinine comment to make...but we'll let that one go in the spirit of the argument I appreciate giving me a mini-resume, but based on your posts and Chris' knowledge of you posted earlier, I had no question as to your intelligence. However, to question mine was more than a little obnoxious. When someone makes a generic statement, to me it means far less than when its pointed at someone.

I don't think the argument is obtuse at all. And I think 90rocz has a key point, which was my point as well. Purchasing power has a lot to say, I believe. Its easy to hang a flag out the front window. Its easy to throw a sticker on the back of your car. And I think Robert you and I can both agree, buying a Ford supports more Americans than buying a Nissan, typically. I haven't heard anyone here disagree about that yet. To each their own, Robert. But seriously...with an economy in such a disarray as ours is today, if as a citizen you have some power, ANY power to help it, wouldn't it be nice to? I would love to take all the imported things out of my new home, but the fact remains while 50 years ago I could have, today I can't. And THAT is my point. You are talking to someone who even has an American-made microwave (Sharp makes certain models in NC ), who bought it because he read the box long enough and liked what he saw. I am an audiophile to the enth degree, but its nearly impossible to find American-made home or car audio that doesn't cost a small fortune. But I own a lot of US made pieces anyway...

Hey, I'd be pissed too if someone questioned my patriotism. I'm not trying to do that so much as I'm simply trying to make the point...if you have an American built choice that provides a viable option for you, why not support an American company over a foreign one? To me, the choice is clear. If others don't agree, as I said from the outset of this conversation...that's their perogative. I agree, the line is more blured now than ever before, between import and domestic. But to me, the line is still there...

redzed,
MA sucks...we agree on that one Ok place to live (besides the cold), and while Robert thinks our coffee costs a lot more, while our cost of living is higher than many states thankfully our paychecks are higher too! But yeah...for businesses, its hard. And yeah, while mid-level futons aren't going to kill the economy, I still think the example is representative of the erosion of the manufacturing economy in this country.

 

Damn!

Good post Bob.

I guess we should abandon specialization of labor and go back to each of us making our own clothes and food and homes. The example is extreme but the analogy is accurate in this case. Why should we produce 100% of our own items when the free market can produce those items more cheaply and free up highly skilled US labor for more profitable prodution?

If unemployment was 12% like it is in Germany and we had skilled people in bread lines as a chronic condition your arguments would carry more sway. But unemployment is 5.4%, the economy is exploding and US manufacturing jobs GREW by 20,000 last month. If we don't export the cheap/simple stuff then we cannot continue to innovate.

Jason, perhaps a second grader could understand if you acutally provided any evidence beyond the absurd "where do the profits go" argument for why buying a domestically built foreign branded car makes someone a traitor. Claiming the rest of us are to dense to comprehend the point doesn't obscure the fact you still haven't proved the point. We cannot understand what we have not been provided.

I still want you guys to come down here to Smyrna to the Nissan plant and tell the line workers anyone who buys a Titan is a traitor (because you have all but implied that is the case in your opinion). So if everyone was patriotic and didnt' buy Nissan Titans, who's going to buy them? So then what happens to the American Nissan Employees?

Economics for the Citizen: http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=4091

I'm not even goinig to entertain this absurd discussion of my patriotism, because I don't and shouldn't have to prove my love of country to any of you. None of you know anything about me and it is presumptuous, arrongant, condescending, and jingoistic to take the debate in this thread and transfer any judgements about mine or Bob's or anyone's patriotism based on what SHOULD be an intellectual discussion. But alas, its turned into name calling, as it always does when one side cannot back up their argument.

Go ahead, hide behind the flag. It doesn't do anything to strengthen a weak argument. This thread has officially made me sick, and I hereby end my participation in it.

 

I will admit to avoiding this thread for days and I missed this post. I avoided mostly because I got tired of getting mad reading this thread.

So this is your premise...it all comes down to this?

I admit that perhaps, in a vacuum, your assertion is true. In hard dollars derived directly from the manufacture and sale of the two types, more dollars probably do ultimately end up in the US economy through the sale of a domestic car. I would argue, however, that the different is probably nearly insignificant once you get to the point of sending whatever profit is left over after dividend and shareholder disbursement, etc. But that's beside the point right now. You have at least admitted above that buy a domestically built import is at least some benefit to America.

I also think, however--and more importantly--that your statement is way oversimplified. The end result of your premise, if we all bought domestics is that 100% of US auto sales would be US built/US owned cars. I assume you would suggest anyone that is Pro-America should buy domestics. Eventually, your suggestion, if followed by all of us, would precipitate the eventual death of import brands here, and the closing of lots of factories and a lot of workers on the streets as foreign companies board up and the US manufacturers take time to expand their operations. This would be real hurt to families' wallets in real dollars, not just a theoretical argument over the relative benefits of one car over another.

In the end the Domestics (all two of them now) would have no competition but each other, and once that happens, with UAW labor running the show at both companies, automobile prices would soar and quality would simultaneously tank, and we'd all be WORSE off for it in the end since our net effective buying power would be greatly reduced in the automotive marketplace.

The import brands being here may be of marginally less benefit to the US in direct dollar terms, but if you factor in all the indirect benefits of market competition that they have brought here including reducing upward pressure on car prices and forcing the domestics to increase quality (which is a direct positive benefit to the American consumer's wallet), then they are an essential and integral part of the current landscape that you cannot take away.

Import companies are here, and they are selling well, and buying one DOES support US workers who take paychecks home to buy houses, cars of their own, pay taxes, and send their kids to college, etc. etc. You're making a normative judgement about the societal worth of one purchase over another, and its based on a set of assumptions that I'm not sure you really have any factual basis for. I just don't buy the profits argument. I think the profits are too small to be of any real benefit vs. the massive payrolls, etc. that these companies have. Once you add up all the outlays a company is going to make to build a car in the US, the "profit" on one car is going to be microscopic by comparison.

Though you're not advocating it per se, the ultimate end result of your position if we carry it out to its logical conclusion is putting the import automobile genie back into the bottle, and I think that's awfully short sighted.

In the end it may be slightly more beneficial to the US to buy a domestic, but in relative terms vs other issues this is a non-issue IMO. I'd rather focus our efforts on keeping business taxation low so as to keep the costs of business low in order to make our labor markets more competitive with foreign markets and therefore reduce outsourcing of skilled labor jobs. I'd also rather focus on keeping personal income taxes low so that families have more net income to increase their buying power and therefore their standard of living. If a family decides an import brand works better for their needs than a domestic then I'm all for that.

In sum, some of us HAVE to buy imports, because its the only thing keeping the domestics on their toes. Thus, they do provide an essential set of indirect benefits that buying only domestic cannot duplicate. Thus, I have to conclude that your premise, although valid on a small scale when considered in a vacuum of direct $ benefit, is false. I'm all for the success of the domestics, but as I said earlier in this thread it should be because they have won the market share through superior product, not because of some Pat Buchanonesque economic isolationism.

FWIW I am sorry I insulted your education. I don't remember where I did that and I'm not about to go back through this thread looking for it but my guess is it wasn't directed at you Jason, so much as one of the others here that I've been arguing with.

 

"...with the UAW labor running the show at both companies, automobile prices would soar and quality would drop.." Are you implying the UAW is the cause of these problems?

When the current government programs favor not working over working in these low wage jobs Bush's programs are generating, by allowances for extravigances like:food, basic housing, diapers & formula, and training or education, I have to say, I might not opt for it, BUT I understand....When a man swims for a long time just barely keeping his head above water, I can see why he'd take a govt life-preserver, even tho he must swallow his pride every time he goes to the grocery. I myself have been penalized by making enough "money"(accouts receiveable)to disqualify me, but not enough to afford things like putting 3 kids through college, new vehicles and healcare coverage outside what my job offers.
- As long as Big Buisness is allowed to lobby on capital hill, your vote(and mine), sadly, is futile. –This is one of the reasons Islamic Extremest justify killing our innocent people, our taxes support some subversive movements, like our CIA training Islamic guerrila's, as recently exposed. Besides the FACT that the Constitution does not provide for "Income Taxes" or having a "Standing Millitary" supported by them..
So have I, I applaud you!..I have gained a new respect for those receiving govt help.(ie:dirt poor)
Again, I refused to join after finding out things like, our country is the main cause, directly or indirectly of the conflicts we get into. And I come from a millitary family.
How do you think your flying an American flag on a Japanese car, would make a WWII Vet or son of one feel? Especially one that died in Pearl Harbor?(You brought up the Millitary..)
Again, I'm not angry with you, just seeing a lot of complaciancy around me, and I believe it's taking a toll on US as a nation. As a matter of fact I refused to fly one of those 1ft X 2ft Taiwanese made American flags on my car, or the Chinese magnets. If I do fly one it'll be "upside down", if your a vet, you'll know why?....

B/c of the way our unemployment program is structured, with deadlines for benefits etc, the 5.4 IS incorrect. By simply getting these people off of lists that say they are receiving benefits, doesn't mean they are working, and sure doesn't mean they earn wages worthy of supporting their families..
I'm not arguing intelects, and education, we all know there are many poor intellegent people as well as educated idiots out there, this is moot.

 

Who said I was implying? With no countervailing force (i.e. non unionized labor) at competing facilities to force the UAW to moderate its policies, wage pressures would increase and there'd be ZERO incentive to maintain and improve quality, since all US automobile labor would be union protected and the US market would be 100% captured by unionized labor.

What's so hard to understand about that? I'm not impugning the UAW just because its the UAW, I'm saying that if you remove the market forces from any environment, these things are a natural result.

I'm giving you a Christmas present dude....you get the last word. I'm done done now, and realizing that no one can shut you up or actually prove anything to you means you'll continue to come in here and provide your historical quotes and your warped paradigms until there's no one left to respond to. So, I hereby abdicate this thread to you and hope it will die a quick death.

Thanks for steering us way off topic AGAIN.