EXCELLENT point Clean. Maybe Camaro isn't supposed to be as rough around the edges as we envision it, maybe it's just coincidence and the lack of some significant structural/cosmetic updating is the real culprit for the Camaro's reputation.

 

Exactly! I don't, nor do I want, to equate a Camaro w/ crudeness. Just because the last 2 generations have languished for too long before getting modernized (and the case could be made that the 4th gens were almost a 3.5th gen) doesn't mean that it should be a signature of the car. I think part of the point of this thread is that as we get older, and get a sampling of newer designs, we become very easily converted to appreciating the driving dynamics of a modern,tight, strong, and controlled car. I know Darth has the GTO, I've had a CTS and C5 in recent history, and you DO notice instantly how much more advanced and modern these cars feel than the 4th gens. So when you compare these rides to a 4th gen, I think most people wonder if they are outgrowing them simply because they are allowing themselves to think that maybe they like some of the modern stuff MORE than their beloved Camaros.

Now then, if we get a MODERN Camaro with which to compare to todays performance vehicles, then I think its safe to say that all the guys that are on the bubble in terms of being swayed my modern comfort and convenience will find that they haven't outgrown Camaro at all, they simply have grown up to the point that they appreciate comfort, convenience, and a well built automobile. And unfortunately, the 4th gen comes up a little short in modern standards of the above criteria.

If anyone has any doubts as to how far a modern chassis has come, drive a CTS, then imagine that as a BASE Camaro in terms of performance. I think we'll all want to "outgrow" the old car and embrace the new one!

 

Boy oh boy do I agree CLEAN!!!!!!!

In fact, I urge everyone reading this to go drive a CTS. Go to a dealer. Sign up for GM's Auto Show in Motion. Rent one. Whatever you have to do...do it. Once you drive it....all of your preconcieved notions of what is "acceptable" in the next Camaro will fly out the window.

And if you happen to test drive a Mustang after experiencing a CTS.....you'll know that "just good enough"....no longer is.

And the answer to Darth's original question is, that it is Camaro which needs to grow up to catch up to me.

 

Do you honestly think Chevrolet can deliver CTS refinement at a Camaro price?

IMO expecting the chassis dynamics of a $40,000 car in a base Camaro ($20,000 car) is very unrealistic. I guess I'll have to see it to believe it.

Is that to say Camaro cannot be brought into the 21st century? No, but benchmark the base Camaro v. the CTS is absurd. If you want a CTS go buy one...they are available now at your local Cadillac dealer.

Economy of scale is great, its one of my buzz phrases, but I realize it can only go so far. We're still talking about a basically new car that has to hit a given set of price points and be reasonably profitable for corporate to approve the business case. R&D costs are going to have to be skin-of-teeth thin too because GM's cashflow isn't exactly positive right now.

 

Chassis-wise, yes.

 

1st off, Charlie has now moved me to the point that the next time I need a rental for less than a few days, I'm going to rent a CTS (I'm on a budget, ya know ).

2nd, if you ask my personal unsubstantuated opinion, I believe the next Camaro replacement may have IRS and and struts up front (to offset the cost of trhe IRS). I still have no problem with a live axle if that's what happens, as long as the car's really good.


3rd, Camaro typically is a better or improved Mustang, and has been since it came out. It isn't always quicker than Mustang, regardless as to what some of the more testosterone folks here think, but it usually has better handling or a better interior. I suspect that's what the next Camaro replacement will be.

Finally, anyone expecting a CTS suspensioned Camaro will probally be disappointed. The Sigma based Camaro was killed because of cost. The "Zeta" based Camaro was killed because of cost. Both of this happened before GM's cash crunch. Bob Lutz is on record saying if they had stuck with Zeta in North America, GM would have had to skimp too much in quality and areas the customer would notice and pay attention to. So it stands to reason that Sigma's CTS-v strength IRS and front suspension simply ain't gonna happen.

Not sure where GM's going with this, but it should be intresting.

 

Are struts a step backwards? I was always of that opinion based solely on perception, but, Porsche, Mercedes, BMW and maybe a few others use them with outstanding results, plus the new Mustang's struts are appearenty much improved (although I've heard from a certain Mustang driver that the new front end uses half an upper 'A-arm' to resist deflection...so is it still a strut?)

 

so basically, what i see here, is people who want GM, to make less margin on their corvette, and sell it cheap enough so that punk kids can skrew around with them under the hood, and so that everyone can afford a vette.

well the camaro should be what it is, a cheaper version of the vette but it will never be near as nice, unless it is in the same price range

 

I don't think it should rival the Vette in every area either, just in power potential, as it has always done. Give us a good basis for some "Tuning" and Aftermarket. We can make it a Vette ourselves, if we wish, as we can afford to.
I think all they have to do is, look at where they left off, take the rough edges off (refine slightly) similar to the Cobalt. Give it some wheel travel, or flexibility, the suspension that is NOT the chassis/body. It doesn't need to handle like a Formula 1car, stock that is.

 

Interesting thread. I put it aside at first, and meant to read it later, then I forgot about it.

As for Camaro, I've seen it not as "unrefined," per se, but as "lacking options." To explain, Cadillac is supposed to have a smooth ride, good handling, and lots of options. If you were to take a Camaro, and brand it as a Caddy, that would be unrefined. As a Chevy, it's in line with what it offers, but doesn't have the bells and such. To me, if you want to put heated seats/mirrors and such on it, then it's starting to get into Buick/Cadillac territory and away from what it should be. I've always seen it as a compromise between a family car and a Corvette. It's the car you buy because you need the backseat for your kids. Something you buy when you don't have a lot of cash to spend, but want something quick. Or, when you can live without alot of the fancy stuff, but want something fast. The next one, IMO should continue that. Put a few luxury touches on it, but don't option it up.

If I buy a Camaro, it's going to be my daily driver. At 21, with a full-time job (that doesn't pay too good) and preparing to take college classes, if I swing a new Camaro I'm not going to be able to buy a 2nd car like some of you can. It's got to do everything for me. Leather is nice, but I really don't have a problem with cloth. I don't necessesarily want something smooth, but I'd like for it to not bruise my kidneys. I'd like to see a HUD available on it, like the 'Vettes and Bonnevilles. All the extra goodies are nice, but aren't deal sealers.

That's just my $.02

 

One of the specific reasons I mentioned heated seats (besides the fact that I love them in the winter) is that you can now order heated seats.... on a Chevy Cobalt... the car that replaced Cavalier !

My thinking is that things that some people think as "high priced luxury items" are not so any more.

 

What we're proposing is that Camaro can start with base models that "lack options", but also allow us to option up our Camaro to the content level we want. I used the Traiblazer as an example because in our case we have a full load Envoy as our "primary" vehicle, and it has all those options. If we're prepared to pay very near CTS pricing for a Camaro, why shouldn't we be able to?

I suspect there are a lot of humble well to do folks that would simply fee more comfortable driving a Chevy that a Cadillac. I know my dad has been driving Buicks most of his life for that reason.

 

And just to clarify, I never said Camaro should be based on Sigma, I said go drive a modern chassis. Considering the leap forward CTS took over Catera, the Malibu took over the Malibu Classic, the C5 over the C4, ect...I just wanted to communicate the idea that the Camaro has a big leap coming in terms of chassis refinement. Also, who's to say that in 3 or 4 years when/if Camaro comes out, that it can't have a Sigma like ride? After all, it will be 6 or 7 years old by then, and the bar likely will have been raised again by then.

And to back up the options list, look no further than Cobalt/Malibu for what is considered "normal" options vs "luxury" options these days. It's come a long way since 4th gen. We've moved from power windows, locks, cruise, and a/c to remote start, heads up, heated seats, and satellite radio.

 

Maybe you're confusing unrefined with lacking options, or maybe I'm misunderstanding.

You can have an extremely refined car....but with very few options.

Refined in they way it drives and feels. Refined in the way it's chassis responds to your inputs. Refined in the smoothness of its powertrain.
This is simply mechanical goodness. You can have a refined car with cloth seats, crank windows and a reasonable sticker.

On the other hand, you can add all the high dollar options you want on an unrefined car....and in the end, what you have is a very expensive turd.

 

First of all, the chassis dynamics for the CTS are the same for the $29,900 version as they are for the $40K version (can you even get it up to 40 w/out the V series?). I'm talking structural strenth, nothing more. That $29.9 (that was my '04 model anyway, probably has gone up now) model has a high content V6, side impact airbags all around, Onstar, IRS, Leather, power everything, automatic climate control, and HID's.

I wonder how strong Kappa is compared to Sigma, and it starts at $19,995. Kappa is just a downsized C6 structure is it not, which is pretty tight, I can say from experience .

What benchmark (structurally, not content) would you use for a car that's not going to be on the streets for another 3 to 4 years?? Catera?

EDIT>>>HOLY COW they jacked the prices on these things! In summer 2003, the Luxury sport was high 30's loaded, now its 45! The base has only gone up $900 bucks though.