Am I outgrowing "Camaro"?
04-16-2005, 09:33 AM
#46
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Re: Am I outgrowing "Camaro"?
I think the key thing is this...
Give a BASE MODEL V8 (5.3, anyone?) with t-tops and power package for $25-26k. Give it enough power to go toe-to-toe with a Mustang GT. If the '02s naturally grew in price AND had a $1,000 V8 option available, I assume it'd be a 25k car now, so this is reasonable.
For $28k, beef up a base coupe a little, make the 5.3 standard and the 6.0 optional and call it an SS. Give it different wheels, tailights and maybe different side trim. Add some better trim on the inside. Call it a $30k car with a 6.0, reasonably equipped.
For $33-34k, make a Z28 with IRS and all the goodies. 6.0 = only engine. Case closed, end of story, everyone is happy. A lot of you get the sophistication you crave, and people like me get the cheap V8 they need and can afford. All I want is nice style, a reasonable ride, t-tops, a stick and a V8. Technically, if it only costs $300 or so extra per car, ALL SHOULD HAVE IRS. I hope GM hears that one.
But to me, Camaro can be all-things to all-enthusiasts. It can be sophisticated, but it NEEDS that cheap V8 availability. Otherwise? Not good. Remember, as I've preached here a hundred times, in '92 70k Camaros were built. 39k were base RSs with 305 TBIs. Numbers like that CAN'T be ignored in a 5th gen.
Give a BASE MODEL V8 (5.3, anyone?) with t-tops and power package for $25-26k. Give it enough power to go toe-to-toe with a Mustang GT. If the '02s naturally grew in price AND had a $1,000 V8 option available, I assume it'd be a 25k car now, so this is reasonable.
For $28k, beef up a base coupe a little, make the 5.3 standard and the 6.0 optional and call it an SS. Give it different wheels, tailights and maybe different side trim. Add some better trim on the inside. Call it a $30k car with a 6.0, reasonably equipped.
For $33-34k, make a Z28 with IRS and all the goodies. 6.0 = only engine. Case closed, end of story, everyone is happy. A lot of you get the sophistication you crave, and people like me get the cheap V8 they need and can afford. All I want is nice style, a reasonable ride, t-tops, a stick and a V8. Technically, if it only costs $300 or so extra per car, ALL SHOULD HAVE IRS. I hope GM hears that one.
But to me, Camaro can be all-things to all-enthusiasts. It can be sophisticated, but it NEEDS that cheap V8 availability. Otherwise? Not good. Remember, as I've preached here a hundred times, in '92 70k Camaros were built. 39k were base RSs with 305 TBIs. Numbers like that CAN'T be ignored in a 5th gen.
04-16-2005, 11:23 AM
#48
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Re: Am I outgrowing "Camaro"?
Darth, great post. We're about the same age, and I think the problem is that you are outgrowing it's use as a daily driver. I'm not sure you ever outgrow the fun of a Camaro, or the brute good looks. That's mainly the reason that I don't ever plan to turn in my Camaro. I bought it new in '97, and it will stay with me. Two years ago I was in your position, but for me it was just the fact that the car was getting less and less thrilling to drive each time I drove it. Modding it solved that problem. That car now feels as fun and fresh as the day I bought it. I am running out of mod options though and am worried about that day again when it's thrill factor starts to diminish.
So to sum it up. Keep the car for a fun toy. You never outgrow that. Then go buy yourself a grown-up version of the Camaro, such as the GTO, Corvette, sporty caddy...
Dan
So to sum it up. Keep the car for a fun toy. You never outgrow that. Then go buy yourself a grown-up version of the Camaro, such as the GTO, Corvette, sporty caddy...
Dan
04-16-2005, 06:56 PM
#49
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Re: Am I outgrowing "Camaro"?
Originally Posted by stereomandan
I'm not sure you ever outgrow the fun of a Camaro, or the brute good looks...
Originally Posted by Jason E
But then, look at the Mustang. Look how far ahead that car is from the old generation. I drove my Z28 last night for the first time since November, having just taken it out of winter hibernation. 4 years after buying it, after 7 years of driving Camaros, I love that car more than ever. Granted, I drive it 3k/year now as a summer/weekend toy.
Originally Posted by poSSum
Considering that MY 2002 almost 50% of V8's and over 25% of overall Camaro sales were SS's, there doesn't seem to be all that much resistance to pulling out the checkbook. If you don't cater to that market it will be that much more difficult to build the overall business plan that can compete with the Mustang.
It's a toy. It has great power. Most of 2002's sales were V8s and a quarter of all Camaro sales were SS. All these points also guarantee the next one will flop if it focuses on these to the exclusion of being an excellent daily driver for those who aren't after the quickest ride in the city.
Sure, most were V8s and the SS was a big chunk of sales in 2002, but when you are talking a mere 30K or so Camaros per year, that's absolute crap as far as sales because even Corvette sold more V8s than Camaro did in 2002.
04-16-2005, 09:25 PM
#50
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Re: Am I outgrowing "Camaro"?
Originally Posted by guionM
You 3 bring out what's great about Camaro. Unfortunately, you also bring out what makes Camaro a failure as well, and how Camaro enthusiasts are Camaro's own worse enemy IMO.
It's a toy. It has great power. Most of 2002's sales were V8s and a quarter of all Camaro sales were SS. All these points also guarantee the next one will flop if it focuses on these to the exclusion of being an excellent daily driver for those who aren't after the quickest ride in the city.
Sure, most were V8s and the SS was a big chunk of sales in 2002, but when you are talking a mere 30K or so Camaros per year, that's absolute crap as far as sales because even Corvette sold more V8s than Camaro did in 2002.
It's a toy. It has great power. Most of 2002's sales were V8s and a quarter of all Camaro sales were SS. All these points also guarantee the next one will flop if it focuses on these to the exclusion of being an excellent daily driver for those who aren't after the quickest ride in the city.
Sure, most were V8s and the SS was a big chunk of sales in 2002, but when you are talking a mere 30K or so Camaros per year, that's absolute crap as far as sales because even Corvette sold more V8s than Camaro did in 2002.
What I was trying to say was that yes, an entry level Camaro that can compete with the Mustang and other coupes that will be cross shopped in features, functionality and price is extremely important. I'm willing to accept that the 5th gen will be a more "upright" car, probably lean toward 1st gen heritage styling but with more regard to aerodynamics than the Mustang. However, if it is cheapened too much, a significant number of high margin sales will be lost. Let's set up a scenario:
Let's say that by using struts and a solid rear axle GM saves $300 per unit and sells 100,000 per year. That's a saving of $30 million.
Now let's say GM goes with SLA and IRS. They sell for the same price. However, they offer an LT package optional on V6, V8 & SS models that includes features like dual zone automatic climate control, heated memory power driver and passenger seats, heated and dimming mirrors, HUD, possibly even a navigation system and whatever other options are available on say a Trailblazer LT.
IMO that would help retain a good number of customers that have "outgrown the Camaro". It would probably also draw some new buyers in. Let's assume that between the world class suspension and available LT package sales go up by 10,000 units @$1K each margin, and that 25,000 of the total units sold are LT models with $2K profit in the LT package. That's a total of $60 million extra botttom line, less the $30 mil extra cost in including the premium suspension on all the models. So we've sold 10,000 extra units and pocketed $30 million profit. What's not to like about that scenario?
04-16-2005, 09:59 PM
#51
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Location: Springfield,OH. U.S.A.
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Re: Am I outgrowing "Camaro"?
I think its somewhat Ironic that a good percentage of the people on this site, would enjoy to see the camaro be rereleased, although how many people would buy it?
I can see most people on this site trading up, or adding it to their prized collection when and IF it comes out.
Some things you NEVER out grow, they just trade places/priorities in your life...but always holds a place in your life, CAMARO is one of those things to me...more than a car, an extension of personality.
04-16-2005, 10:32 PM
#52
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Re: Am I outgrowing "Camaro"?
I have outgrowned the WOT at every stop light, that took me 6 months to wear off but, i remember near the end of my daily driving of the firebird, i forgot how to spin the rear tires off the line... i never floored it from a stop, and with good reason, spinning out multiple times, doing 180's in an intersection is stupid and unsafe, i almost mowed over a cyclist once and almost went sliding into a median my first turn in the rain driving the firebird.
But driving that car gives me sooo much joy so much different respect for GM, rather then the media that i see every day, i forget what i used to drive daily, and why i loved that so much and why i didnt sell it.
but i will go tomarrow and probably burn a gallon of gas in a parkinglot space reminicing. the car i love is still loveable but then again im only 19 and havent had the firebird much more then 15 months before retiring it for a more reliable car.
But driving that car gives me sooo much joy so much different respect for GM, rather then the media that i see every day, i forget what i used to drive daily, and why i loved that so much and why i didnt sell it.
but i will go tomarrow and probably burn a gallon of gas in a parkinglot space reminicing. the car i love is still loveable but then again im only 19 and havent had the firebird much more then 15 months before retiring it for a more reliable car.
04-17-2005, 12:38 AM
#53
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Re: Am I outgrowing "Camaro"?
Originally Posted by poSSum
You may have missed my point, Guy.
What I was trying to say was that yes, an entry level Camaro that can compete with the Mustang and other coupes that will be cross shopped in features, functionality and price is extremely important. I'm willing to accept that the 5th gen will be a more "upright" car, probably lean toward 1st gen heritage styling but with more regard to aerodynamics than the Mustang. However, if it is cheapened too much, a significant number of high margin sales will be lost.
Let's say that by using struts and a solid rear axle GM saves $300 per unit and sells 100,000 per year.
What I was trying to say was that yes, an entry level Camaro that can compete with the Mustang and other coupes that will be cross shopped in features, functionality and price is extremely important. I'm willing to accept that the 5th gen will be a more "upright" car, probably lean toward 1st gen heritage styling but with more regard to aerodynamics than the Mustang. However, if it is cheapened too much, a significant number of high margin sales will be lost.
Let's say that by using struts and a solid rear axle GM saves $300 per unit and sells 100,000 per year.
Go too cheap and fewer people are going to want to spend much money on options and packages. You certainly will attract far fewer of the people with the means to pay for these high profit features. Where's that $300 savings now?
Getting back to my Mustang test drive......it really didn't give me enough mechanical sweetness, to make me want to pay much more than $20K. I don't think I'd want to pile on very many options.....because the basic building blocks of the car don't make me feel that it is worth it. I'll take that back....I'd pay to NOT have to live with that crude, truck motor V6. Our old 3800 feels like it was finessed by Lexus in comparison.
Last edited by Z284ever; 04-17-2005 at 01:04 AM.
04-17-2005, 04:32 AM
#54
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 757
Re: Am I outgrowing "Camaro"?
Originally Posted by poSSum
You may have missed my point, Guy.
What I was trying to say was that yes, an entry level Camaro that can compete with the Mustang and other coupes that will be cross shopped in features, functionality and price is extremely important. I'm willing to accept that the 5th gen will be a more "upright" car, probably lean toward 1st gen heritage styling but with more regard to aerodynamics than the Mustang. However, if it is cheapened too much, a significant number of high margin sales will be lost. Let's set up a scenario:
Let's say that by using struts and a solid rear axle GM saves $300 per unit and sells 100,000 per year. That's a saving of $30 million.
Now let's say GM goes with SLA and IRS. They sell for the same price. However, they offer an LT package optional on V6, V8 & SS models that includes features like dual zone automatic climate control, heated memory power driver and passenger seats, heated and dimming mirrors, HUD, possibly even a navigation system and whatever other options are available on say a Trailblazer LT.
IMO that would help retain a good number of customers that have "outgrown the Camaro". It would probably also draw some new buyers in. Let's assume that between the world class suspension and available LT package sales go up by 10,000 units @$1K each margin, and that 25,000 of the total units sold are LT models with $2K profit in the LT package. That's a total of $60 million extra botttom line, less the $30 mil extra cost in including the premium suspension on all the models. So we've sold 10,000 extra units and pocketed $30 million profit. What's not to like about that scenario?
What I was trying to say was that yes, an entry level Camaro that can compete with the Mustang and other coupes that will be cross shopped in features, functionality and price is extremely important. I'm willing to accept that the 5th gen will be a more "upright" car, probably lean toward 1st gen heritage styling but with more regard to aerodynamics than the Mustang. However, if it is cheapened too much, a significant number of high margin sales will be lost. Let's set up a scenario:
Let's say that by using struts and a solid rear axle GM saves $300 per unit and sells 100,000 per year. That's a saving of $30 million.
Now let's say GM goes with SLA and IRS. They sell for the same price. However, they offer an LT package optional on V6, V8 & SS models that includes features like dual zone automatic climate control, heated memory power driver and passenger seats, heated and dimming mirrors, HUD, possibly even a navigation system and whatever other options are available on say a Trailblazer LT.
IMO that would help retain a good number of customers that have "outgrown the Camaro". It would probably also draw some new buyers in. Let's assume that between the world class suspension and available LT package sales go up by 10,000 units @$1K each margin, and that 25,000 of the total units sold are LT models with $2K profit in the LT package. That's a total of $60 million extra botttom line, less the $30 mil extra cost in including the premium suspension on all the models. So we've sold 10,000 extra units and pocketed $30 million profit. What's not to like about that scenario?
). This is comparable to the deluxe package available on the Mustang. This is one of those things that allows that car to appeal to both teenagers looking for their first car and to baby boomers looking for a nice ride to cruise in. As for the IRS and SLA suspension, I could imagine that coming out perhaps a year after the car's intro as an optional package. By that point, the Camaro will hopefully have the sufficient success on the marketplace to convince the beancounters to increase the lineup.
04-17-2005, 06:55 AM
#55
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Posts: 2,282
Re: Am I outgrowing "Camaro"?
Originally Posted by poSSum
You may have missed my point, Guy.
.......IMO that would help retain a good number of customers that have "outgrown the Camaro". It would probably also draw some new buyers in. Let's assume that between the world class suspension and available LT package sales go up by 10,000 units @$1K each margin, and that 25,000 of the total units sold are LT models with $2K profit in the LT package. That's a total of $60 million extra botttom line, less the $30 mil extra cost in including the premium suspension on all the models. So we've sold 10,000 extra units and pocketed $30 million profit. What's not to like about that scenario?
.......IMO that would help retain a good number of customers that have "outgrown the Camaro". It would probably also draw some new buyers in. Let's assume that between the world class suspension and available LT package sales go up by 10,000 units @$1K each margin, and that 25,000 of the total units sold are LT models with $2K profit in the LT package. That's a total of $60 million extra botttom line, less the $30 mil extra cost in including the premium suspension on all the models. So we've sold 10,000 extra units and pocketed $30 million profit. What's not to like about that scenario?
04-17-2005, 08:45 AM
#56
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Re: Am I outgrowing "Camaro"?
Originally Posted by dav305z
.
As for the IRS and SLA suspension, I could imagine that coming out perhaps a year after the car's intro as an optional package.
As for the IRS and SLA suspension, I could imagine that coming out perhaps a year after the car's intro as an optional package.
04-17-2005, 11:44 AM
#57
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Re: Am I outgrowing "Camaro"?
Originally Posted by poSSum
You may have missed my point, Guy.
What I was trying to say was that yes, an entry level Camaro that can compete with the Mustang and other coupes that will be cross shopped in features, functionality and price is extremely important. I'm willing to accept that the 5th gen will be a more "upright" car, probably lean toward 1st gen heritage styling but with more regard to aerodynamics than the Mustang. However, if it is cheapened too much, a significant number of high margin sales will be lost. Let's set up a scenario:
Let's say that by using struts and a solid rear axle GM saves $300 per unit and sells 100,000 per year. That's a saving of $30 million.
Now let's say GM goes with SLA and IRS. They sell for the same price. However, they offer an LT package optional on V6, V8 & SS models that includes features like dual zone automatic climate control, heated memory power driver and passenger seats, heated and dimming mirrors, HUD, possibly even a navigation system and whatever other options are available on say a Trailblazer LT.
IMO that would help retain a good number of customers that have "outgrown the Camaro". It would probably also draw some new buyers in. Let's assume that between the world class suspension and available LT package sales go up by 10,000 units @$1K each margin, and that 25,000 of the total units sold are LT models with $2K profit in the LT package. That's a total of $60 million extra botttom line, less the $30 mil extra cost in including the premium suspension on all the models. So we've sold 10,000 extra units and pocketed $30 million profit. What's not to like about that scenario?
What I was trying to say was that yes, an entry level Camaro that can compete with the Mustang and other coupes that will be cross shopped in features, functionality and price is extremely important. I'm willing to accept that the 5th gen will be a more "upright" car, probably lean toward 1st gen heritage styling but with more regard to aerodynamics than the Mustang. However, if it is cheapened too much, a significant number of high margin sales will be lost. Let's set up a scenario:
Let's say that by using struts and a solid rear axle GM saves $300 per unit and sells 100,000 per year. That's a saving of $30 million.
Now let's say GM goes with SLA and IRS. They sell for the same price. However, they offer an LT package optional on V6, V8 & SS models that includes features like dual zone automatic climate control, heated memory power driver and passenger seats, heated and dimming mirrors, HUD, possibly even a navigation system and whatever other options are available on say a Trailblazer LT.
IMO that would help retain a good number of customers that have "outgrown the Camaro". It would probably also draw some new buyers in. Let's assume that between the world class suspension and available LT package sales go up by 10,000 units @$1K each margin, and that 25,000 of the total units sold are LT models with $2K profit in the LT package. That's a total of $60 million extra botttom line, less the $30 mil extra cost in including the premium suspension on all the models. So we've sold 10,000 extra units and pocketed $30 million profit. What's not to like about that scenario?
I would love to see a mid range model like the old LT again (I think we had a very long thread about that a couple of years ago). Realistically, I think that "mid-level" Camaro replacement will be a Pontiac or a Buick. I suspect GM will be getting away from overlapping vehicle characteristics if not the vehicles themselves.
04-17-2005, 01:31 PM
#58
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Re: Am I outgrowing "Camaro"?
Originally Posted by guionM
IMHO, I think we will see SLA front suspension, even if GM does go with a live axle. The 4th gen's SLA was paid for and was able to keep the car's cost low. In all honesty, I in no way believe we'll see struts in the RWD volume car GM-NA comes up with, especially the F-body.
04-17-2005, 02:36 PM
#59
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Re: Am I outgrowing "Camaro"?
One thing to keep in mind is that the best Camaro we have as a reference w/ regards to todays cars was introduced in 1993, and was really just a worked over 1982 design. It wasn't designed to accomodate all the trinkets we have today because the design is so OLD that the things hadn't even been invented yet. I don't think its unreasonable to expect the new car to have any less than what is available in todays entry/mid level cars from GM. I think it's safe to say that OnStar, GPS Nav, D.I.C., heads up, heated (and cooled?) seats, remote start, D.O.D., and all the other stuff thats on todays Cobalts, Malibus, and Grand Prix's will be available.
Camaro is handicapped in our minds as being rough around the edges and crude and so forth, but for those that remember 1982, it was cutting edge..and Motor Trend Car of the Year for heavens sake! The fact that it never got a proper upkeep after that is a topic that has been debated many times, but just keep in mind that a modern Camaro with the structural strength of even todays Malibu, the above mentioned equipment, and an LS2, would be LIGHT YEARS ahead of the best '02 ever made in terms of structure, comfort, ammenites, and performance. If it gets a structure on par w/ Sigma or Kappa, it will be that much better.
Camaro is handicapped in our minds as being rough around the edges and crude and so forth, but for those that remember 1982, it was cutting edge..and Motor Trend Car of the Year for heavens sake! The fact that it never got a proper upkeep after that is a topic that has been debated many times, but just keep in mind that a modern Camaro with the structural strength of even todays Malibu, the above mentioned equipment, and an LS2, would be LIGHT YEARS ahead of the best '02 ever made in terms of structure, comfort, ammenites, and performance. If it gets a structure on par w/ Sigma or Kappa, it will be that much better.
04-18-2005, 08:05 AM
#60
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Re: Am I outgrowing "Camaro"?
Just wanted to bump this one to the top... IMO, It's been the Thread Of The Year so far! SOme REALLY great stuff from everyone...
Keep it coming! I find myself nodding along with almost every post, regardless of the "side" they are on...
SOme REALLY great stuff from everyone...Keep it coming! I find myself nodding along with almost every post, regardless of the "side" they are on...