I've NEVER stated that I believe Ford is more committed to the Mustang than GM was to the Camaro.

But let's at least take a look at the facts......

First, the negative.....even Mustang guys tell me they're embarrased by still driving a derivative of the Fairmont platform.

As with the f-body, the bean-counters will squeeze every last penny out of a platform until forced to upgrade by the competition......oh wait, the Mustang has NO current competition.....

Now some of the positive....

Ever seen a CEO of GM star in a commercial extolling the virtues of the Camaro? How it's his favorite car and boy is sure is neat.....

How many engine choices have been available in the Mustang? Lots.

How many body revisions....major body revisions? Plenty.

How many special models are continuing to be churned out? All the while getting better and better at it. Mach 1, SC Cobra, Cobra R, Bullit, Boss are pretty good cars....(I still wouldn't own one though)

Ever had an option of IRS on a Camaro? Sure the first attempt wasn't very good, but the current one seems to be earning some respect.

How about turbocharges and superchargers?

Did the F-body offer things the Mustang didn't? Of course it did.

The point here is not which is or was the better car, but who did a better job of getting the most out of a certian model and who just surrendered in the pony car war.

If nothing else, the Mustang shows that with the right marketing and model planning and future vision, there IS a market for the affordable American V8 RWD sports car.

I do think, however, that the days of simplistic, cheap, high horsepower, drag race warriors is over, due to unaffordable insurance costs and better, more rounded performance cars being built today.

Hopefully, when GM heals from the damage done to it by Zarrella, it too will return to the war and give us something to look forward to.........but wait too long and competitors like the new 350Z, etc...will continue to offer much more for our performance dollar.

 

quote from Z284ever: 9/11/2001 mean anything to you? That's the reason for the stock. Zarella... prime reason IMHO for Camaro hiatus. As Doug has stated, I am hopeful now that Zarella and his crew are gone.

 

What a ridiculous statement!

9/11 means plenty to me...as it does to all Americans.

I find the fact that you use it so casually, offensive.

 

Doug I completely agree with your position. Besides the same out-dated platforms Ford has shown more commitment, but this has only come recently. I don't think it's any coincidence that these special edition Mustangs started to sprout right around the time the announcement came that the F-body would die. How long were Mustang enthusiasts begging for more horsepower in the 90's? Now that our cars are gone, Ford is going after us. They want to draw us in and hold us even if GM ever decides to get back into the fight.

 

Originally posted by Doug Harden, Pres CICC "It was not "just there".......tell that to the Trans Am racers of the late 60's..........you know, the people the car was built for in the first place......."

I doubt they'd care, the 2nd Gen didn't have the / either.

"We obviously have two different visions of what a Z/28 really is"

No we don't, you only want to acknowledge the 1st Gen Z28's.

"I'm old enough to remember the original REAL Z/28's and understood their mission....I'd like to have another REAL Z/28 with the same mission, ala the Z06......therefore I choose to use the slash as a rally flag to champion our cause....you have accepted the current version as it's mission.....but choose to ridicule those of us who have this ferver"

I don't know where you got that from. Have we not been posting on the same board about these things for a while now agreeing and disagreeing on lots of stuff?? I am guaranteed to be in every post about the Z28 name and its been discussed many times. I do not accept the current Z28, you know, the 1 the 4th Gen turned into a mid model?? I accept it as a special performance option like it was in the earlier years and the top performance model that could do it all in the later years. Its almost the same thing. I would have accepted the 4th Gen Z28 as a Z28 if it was given an SLP upgrade option instead of being called SS. Even if it was called Z28/SS!! It could have had an SLP window sticker or an emblem. But no. Lets devalue our most recognized name and top model.

I too agree that the Z28 should be returned to the top, in ANY WAY. Even if its a Z06 type of car, but for it to be a success it has to have an Auto option and AC!! Its all possible today thats for sure.

 

Well, I'll say it then: FORD IS MORE COMMITED TO THE MUSTANG, THAN GM IS TO THE CAMARO.

I too, speak to alot of people who would know...and I can't find any indication that a new Camaro is even on the horizon.


Ford on the other hand..............

 

Definetly. But it wasn't always like that until a ways into the 4th Gen. They just acted like they didn't care anymore. They also seemed to refuse to listen to what the buyers want. F**d changed that about themselves and I hope GM can too.

 

Z284ever - Well it appears I offended you, if that's the case my apologies. Clearly the date was tragic for many people, certainly there was no intent to be obtuse about that. I was trying to make the point that most people realize a lot of stocks were impacted and continually today are also impacted by that day's events. My only intent with the statement was that it seemed you were ignoring the day's impact on financial markets and stocks. I hope you will accept my apology.

Doug Harden - What exactly do you expect to see posted here, when you post anti-GM diatribes on a Camaro enthusiast site? Especially when you make generalized claims with no basis in fact about design changes over the years. If you're bitter about the Camaro production hiatus, fine, you have every right to post here. But I also have a right to challenge your opinions, and your own credibility if warranted - which it clearly is from your statements herein. You stated:

The statement is simply incorrect IMHO. There's more to a "platform" than the floorpan and rear axle! The platform includes the entire load-bearing structure, suspension assemblies, drivetrain and nowadays controller architectures as well. In fact, the rear axle you seem so obsessed and bitter about is one of the few things that have NOT been changed much since the 3gens. The FBody platform changed drastically from 3gen to 4gen, and it cost GM many millions of $$$ to make it happen. The 4gen unibody is much enhanced, evidenced if nothing else by the changes needed to add the dentproof body panels. Who cares if they are from GM80? They are a good innovation and stand proudly alone.

Maybe you truly do "know exactly the design and make up of all gens of f-body suspensions". It just does not appear so from your statements herein. I'm still flabbergasted at anyone who makes such a claim but scoffs at the front suspension improvements from 3gen to 4gen and thinks of them as tweaks.

All site members are entitled to vent about their frustrations with the Camaro production hiatus... but people posting that should not be surprised to see an opposing view on a site like this. I love my Camaro and Firebird. I'm glad I have them. I'm not bitter with GM about ceasing production, since the cars are still readily available, new and used, and are a blast to own and drive. Regardless of the heresay quoted on here, I'm going to keep the faith RedPlanet has given us, unless/until he says otherwise. Z28, Z/28, whatever!

I disagree completely with this statement. GM did in fact insert every possible new technology they could into the cars over the years, but still managed to keep them affordable throughout. ABS; RAP; dual airbags; OBD-II; modern crashworthiness; low-maintenance powerplants; factory CD changers and ergonomic controls; digitally controlled and integrated engines and transmissions; the list goes on and on, for those of us not too jaded and bitter to see it.

 

who cares
i dont car what they called it the 4th gen was an awesome car
lets just hope they bring back another camaro and i dont care what they call it as long as it starts with camaro
why not just say it isn't a real Z28 cause it didn't have a 302 this is a dumb thread

 

I agree 100%. Ford is doing a fine job of marketing a very dated platform. These special additions (Mach 1, Bullet, etc) are garnering a lot of interest for the Mustang. It also helps that they have some value, and aren't just stickers and stripes as well. Just on a side note, you gotta have the slash. It's Z/28

-Mike

 

Amen to that!

 

BigDarknFast....

Apology accepted, we're fine, let's move on....

 

It doesn't have to have a 302 to be a "real" Z/28. But a Z/28 is MUCH more than just a great motor like the LS1....MUCH MORE!

As far as being a dumb thread.....I think just the opposite. This is exactly the sort of topic for a forum like this. In fact to be perfectly honest...I don't think that I can think of a more appropriate topic to open up for discussion here.

 

...that they could have done better, much better with the f-body?

BN&F, I'm only "bitter" (as you so love to point out) about why the car was allowed to become a dinosaur......have you read any of the magazine articles in the last few years? They ALL agree with my stance. Sure it was fast, some even thought it was a great value, BUT it also was too big, too heavy, long doors, solid axle, hump, cheap switch gear, squeeks and rattles, great motor, but a tired old package, etc......

Am I anti-GM? Oh h e l l no!! I live and breath Camaro....I've been a club officer including Pres. of my local Camaro club for 10 years. I've owned more than 10 Camaros......I'm as active as anyone I know in the hobby...short of Scott. I've been interviewed in countless newspapers and other media about the Camaro. I personally consider myself one of it's biggest fans.

Does that mean I have to be happy about the situation we now find ourselves in? Oh h e l l no!! Would it make you happy if we were all GM yes men? You have said that instead of complaining, we should offer ideas as to how to make a better car.......I have! There's a few of us that have tried endlessly to promote the idea of a new Z/28 built with the same mission it started life as and in the model of the Z06......only to have to spent countless posts defending the use of the original slash, instead of having them understand WTF we're trying to say. We've discussed ad nauseum a proposed model line-up..........so we've tried.

BTW, did you see the press release for the C5R motored GMPD Camaro Z/28 shown at Woodward? They also used the slash....so they get it too!!

Part of my "bitterness" stems from my knowledge of what transpired with the Camaro in the last five++ years. I'm also "bitter" about why they rest of the world is passing us by with better cars.

Think about it........the Camaro is the PERFECT car to have showcased what GM can really do. The Corvette is in small company, so it doesn't really equate here.....

In much the same way they developed the CTS, the Camaro could and should have been a world class car.......not kept in the "boy racer" class.

I've made the comparison to the new 350Z a few times.....I've had the opportunity to crawl all over one and even spent time on the track mixing it up with one.......and I have to tell you, if it had an LS1 it would not have an equal. Cast alum. suspension arms, IRS, world class brakes, 3,200#, world class handling, etc......and it still only cost what a 2002 SS did....around $35k for a track model.

So......am I bitter? Not in the way your $0.02 analysis describes me.....but I also know we could have had a MUCH better car and it COULD have been one of GM best sellers....and not been just good enough.

As much as it pains me to say this....and the more I think about it, the name Camaro might just carry too much baggage to ever return successfully.....it really does carry the risk of creating too much negative reaction to anything that cannot possibly satisfy ALL of the past Camaro owners.......not fast enough, not drag racer friendly, of course most will hate the styling (they always do...until they see one that is)....or it's still the same car that failed the first time.

GM might well do better by introducing a real world class car and letting the Camaro name R.I.P.......of course I really hope this can be proven wrong..........

Either way, if you're happy to be a cheerleader for GM and think they really did everything they could to make the Camaro as good as it could be........and believe this will help GM to build us a world-class Camaro........then I've got some swamp land to sell you.

 

Doug H - Well you certainly deserve props for your contributions to the hobby. I imagine it does take a lot of time to be President of your club, do the interviews and so forth. You could not have helped but expand the hobby and spread the word with all that work. It's great that you are that involved with the Camaro and it's clear you do care a lot about it. Plus I can tell there is a lot you admire about the car, such as when you pointed out that the 4gens were the best ever of the Camaros. I have no intent to dispute any of that -- and agree with you in your disappointment about the hiatus. It is a bummer and a clear mistake by GM.

I guess though, we are essentially of two different phiilosophies about GM. Yours, stuck in the past, looking around in disillusionment and anger at mistakes already made and thus now unchangeable for all time. Mine, hopeful of the future and looking for ways to help GM find the path to a new and even more successful Camaro. It's not anti-GM to say they could have built it better. But it is anti-GM to say some of the other things... and while you have every right, I disagree with them.

I hold all magazine reviews at arms length anymore. Car&Driver... with its eternal love for all things Honda and BMW... Road&Track... with its obvious bias against domestic makes... and so on. I stopped caring what Car&Drivel thought of my Fbodys in 1999 when their test driver for a review/comparo article said of the stunning 30th Trans Am, with its gorgeous blue-tinted 17X9 wheels and pavement-ripping LS1, "I wanted to hang out a sign saying 'not my car'!" Maybe that's part of your situation... in all these interviews with the media, you're becoming infected with their cynicism and bias. You see, it's fashionable to be "worldly" and put down American cars... even though the quality gap now is negligible and the long-term reliability gap is attenuating monotonically to zero as well.

So "some even thought it was a great value". How about naming a car with more performance per dollar than the Z28 available today? Can't can you? That's because it's the BEST performance value anywhere, bar none. Too big and heavy? Then the sprightly Celica GT will be juuusst right for you. Don't forget a sizeable exhaust tip for "the look". I see the "squeeks and rattles" myth is getting trotted out again, even though the 4gen structure is tight as a drum and neither my 99 Formula with 38k potholed-Detroit-miles nor my 2002 TA with 4k had a single peep. This "tired old package" humbles other cars every day on streets all over the USA.

This is unnecessarily negative. I know several older guys with Camaro's or Firebirds... does that make them "boy racers"? The Fbody is a value-oriented performance car... how do you propose avoiding the connotation in our society. Are you saying then that people don't also see a "boy-racer" when they see an overdone Accord or Civic with loud exhaust and ground effects? From what I've seen, many people pointing fingers about a car being "boy-racer" secretly wish they were driving something a little more sporty themselves (obviously I'm not referring to you!).

You see... that is the key. It does not have an LS1! The 350Z is a pretty nice car... but here's some other things it doesn't have like the FBody does:

1. Rumbling, melodious V8 exhaust note
2. Good looks while wearing fat drag radials on the rear
3. T-tops
4. Ergonomic steering-wheel stereo controls (it does have some tiny buttons, but IMO they are too small for gloved hands).
5. Dentproof fenders and doors (for that matter, ANY dent protection at all on those panels!)
6. Folding rear seat (oh wait! NO rear seat at all!)
7. Roomy rear hatch area for cargo

Surely you have heard of 'self-fulfilling prophesies'. I believe that a lot of carping and moaning by people posting herein about how many things are/were wrong with the Camaro could have an effect on it coming back. I think we should spend a little more time here saying what we do like about these cars, instead of being negative. If we tell GM "don't like this, didn't like that" it is not as informative as "THIS, I like!" "That, I want and need!". I disagree that the Camaro name has too much baggage to return. I believe that for most people it means "performance at a value price" and "stylish 2+2". There will always be a small fraction of consumers who react negatively to a name. Let them buy Celicas.

I disagree with this completely. You think the Camaro failed? Why? Because it's not in production anymore? If so here are some other 'failures' for you:

Dodge Charger Daytona
Torino GT 428 CobraJet
Hemi 'Cuda

All supreme performers, all loved still today by their owners, all a resounding success in my book. Oh wait - forgot one:

Z/28 Camaro

The Camaro was, is, and will be a world-class car when it returns.

Actually, I AM happy to be a cheerleader for GM. I do believe it will help GM deliver a newer and better Camaro in the future, and that they did a fine job of making the current one the best it could be. And no, I'm not interested in buying your land.

Sunset Orange Met. 2002 Trans Am, DF Lid, FRA, K&N | DFGreen 98 GTP, Insulated SLP K&N, !U!Res, 3.5 Pulley, DHP_PCM, transcooler
| Brilliant Red Metallic 1990 IROC-Z Camaro, K&N, Camaro SS takeoff muffler | NBM 99 Formula, SOLD in Aug. 02.