You could set the heads on the hood of your car and it wouldnt matter!!!!!!!
Unless the valve guides are not in the head and the valve is sitting on the hood .The relation of the valve stem to the rocker is all in the head (valve guide /rocker boss) IT HAS ABSOLUTLY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE BLOCK!!!
This has nothing to do about bashing Speed Inc.I am Good Friends with them .Matter of fact I talked with Jim aka INTMID8 about this earlier today and both had a good laugh at some peoples knowledge of motor geometry.

 

Maybe you could take a trip over to speed inc and solve this issue for me. Sounds like you could handle it. Jim never did tell me what the actual issue is. TFS denies it being in the heads. I mean if its obviously a head issue why have I not been told directly that there is a flaw in the heads by Speed INC. I am going to have to give Jim a call myself I guess since I never got his opinion on what the problem is.

 

I would love to see them in person along with the studs and rockers. I do not need a block or anything. I just feel bad for randy after dumping $$$ and getting stuff that not only "he can't" use but stuff that is really "useless to anyone". I would like to see the heads and give an unbiased opinion about what the problem is.

I will remove the valve springs and install the studs and rockers and look at how they ride on the velve tip. If they sit flat, great . . . . the heads are fine and were mysteriosly fixed during shipping, LOL.

If they do not sit flat, I will spin the valve (reason for removing springs) and see what that does. This will eliminate or confirn the valve tip being flat. I will then loosen and rotate the stud while looking at valve tip on rocker. This will eliminte or confrim the studs.

If the rockers do not sit flat after all of this, the valve guides and/or rockers stud threads are not correct.

No block is needed.

If this checks out fine, I can't imagine the block, lifter, guide plate and pushrod not allowing things to sit flat. The stud, rocker and valve will NOT flex and give problems with the rocker not sitting flat. These things will play with side to side location of the rocker on the valve and how centered the rocker is on the valve but will do nothing for the valve sitting flat.

No block is needed.

If they are still not sitting flat, the only way to use them at that point will be to find the guide/stud thread problem and correct (lots of $$$) or to "hammer tune" each stud to make the rocker sit flat on each rocker. I am not really hip on either one but just thinking out loud here. As Randy said, it would be a good time to cut losses and just "punt" and get a head that DOES make everything work like it should.

Maybe the heads were fixed during shipment or maybe the heads will not have the problem for what ever reason but that is a list of what I would do and what the results would show

Lloyd



Lloyd

 

I gave Jim My opinion on how to fix them .I am sure that any "competent" machinist could also tell you how.But people on the internet know everything. Good Luck with your problem.

 

I will be the FIRST to admit I have no clue at all what is wrong with the setup.

 

Lloyd I had just sent you a PM asking you to take a look at them! We will have to work that out. Unfortunatly I currently do not know if the heads are on there way to Speed INC or are still at TFS. I would really appreciate you doing this for me.

 

Honestly I feel sorry for the runaround that you are getting on this problem.It should never get to this. You are in good hands with Llyod and Speed Inc. They are both excellent companies and you should follow their recommendations(sp)Again Good luck Randy

 

Thanks man I know it will all work out in the end. Lloyd will hopefully be able to see somthing, he has been nothing but helpful. Speed INC is top notch from what I hear so I have complete faith in them. I try and only deal with well known and well respected businesses just incase somthing like this would ever happen. Glad I did my research.

 

You guys were kinda bashing on my idea of just bolting it to another LT1 block to confirm it ...

And I want to reexplain myself on that one. Bolting it down on ANOTHER block, and duplicating the issues, when done by a competent engine building shop, DOES prove to TFS that it is in the heads ... It would instantly prove to any doubters that it is a head issue.

The only way I could ever see a block being the problem is if the deck was so out of whack ... And I am SURE they checked this already. But it just seems impossible for this to be the case or happen.

I bet that TFS just made some fast measurements to check it out, and the problem still lies in the threads for the rocker studs, defective valves, or the guides ... I sat around thinking about this earlier today, and honestly, can not think of a single other thing that can duplicate the results you are having ... especially since you used other rockers and such to rule out the trunions and such.

 

Here are a couple of pictures of the heads mocked up here at TFS. As you can see by the pictures there is nothing wrong with the cylinder heads.The first image is with a Comp Cams 1.52 rocker and the second is a TFS rocker that we had sent a set of to Speed Inc. We will be sending the heads to Lloyd (NightTrain66) with the rockers so he can mock it up also.

 

Just wondering if you tried the mock up with 1.6 rockers also. I read a article about a tfs headed 383 that was losing 40hp 1.6 vs 1.52 do to the fact the 1.6 was bringing the pushrod closer to the head causing a deflection issue pushrod against cylinder head. This would also explain why some are worse then others. I will post a link to the article.
http://www.vetteweb.com/tech/0204vet...er_arms_ratio/
I don't know if this is the issue by any means but possibly the 1.6s and the big cam are making the pushrod deflect off the pushrod tube causing a side load on the rockers?? This would also explain why we are having a issue on one block and not the other....

 

Are those pictures taken using the same studs and guideplates that were used for mock-up previously? If they are not the same, it is possible that the guideplates used by speed are not chamfered enough and it was putting the studs into a bind when the radius of the stud hits the guideplate, hense they would sit at an angle.

I thought this possibility was ruled out though?

 

Guideplates are most definitly ruled out. We have tried GMPP and TFS brand. Yes those are the same ones used for the mock up. Jim was adament from the get go that it was not a guide plate issue but he still ruled it out. Thats why I was thinking the 1.6 rockers we are using vs the 1.52 rockers TFS used maybe part of the issue, as illustrated in the article that I linked. Seems like a possibilty at least as much as guideplates were.

 

The article you linked is very old. There has been a revision to the heads since then to accomodate 1.6 rockers and in no way pertain to this situation.Yes your heads were checked with 1.6 rockers ( The picture of the TFS rocker is a 1.6 ratio and are the same ones shipped to Speed Inc along with the same studs and guideplates)

 

You know at this point i agree that the best thing to do here is let Lloyd take a look at them, i got $20 that says he will blatantly let everyone know what the issue is.

The bottom line here is that it is flat out preposterous that both TFS and Speed Inc are using the EXACT same parts, but yet Speed can consistently duplicate the problem and TFS can't. Hate to say it, but Speed doesn't have anything to gain by bringing this up, only protect their rep. by doing good work.
I have TFS heads, and have been 100% satisfied with them (lloyd ported them), but there is basically no way that this could not be a head issue unless every valve stem is bent. the chances of that are like a million to 1. the valve guides either have to be in at an angle, or the stud threads are not properly machined.

I have been following this thread and I can't believe that it has gotten to this point. Like I said let Lloyd get a look at them, 3rd party opnion will help this out.