OK, I've seen the Alt.
If you're thinking of running that now and then turning it up later for a 16v battery, then that sounds like a plan.

Good luck,
Dave Brown

 

If you say so - I wouldn't know anything, I'm just a lowly automotive electrical engineer.



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1996 Impala SS - LT4 396, T56
1996 GMC K2500
1992 Buick Roadmaster Estate Wagon

 

OK, ERIC,
Where couldn't you use higher voltage?
What would be hurt by it?
Why will we be seeing most manufacturers switching to 48+ volt systems in the REAL near future?
More efficient!

If you have something to add, then add it.
Don't quote me with a smarta$$ tone!

Dave

------------------
If a little's good,
More is better,
And too much is just right!!!

[This message has been edited by strokedTA (edited June 26, 2002).]

 

If and when you have problems with your car's drivability, whether it be PCM, sensor, or ignition related, who will be able to correctly diagnose the problem?

Mechanics have a hard enough time figuring out what's wrong with our cars with the stock electrical system, let alone a modified one.

You won't know if your problems are related to your 16 volt conversion or a genuine stock part problem.

------------------
'93 Camaro Z28 Automatic with a ZL1 hood.
No bottle.
No blower.
383 cubic inch serving of horsepower...hold the rice please.
Thats all you need to know.
ICQ: 23984221
Gripenfelter's Homepage

Disclaimer: The opinions expressed by me are not necessarily supported or indicative of the Government of Canada or any other Federal Employee.

 

Dave.....

Let me try and explain why the "engineers" cringe when they see something like this.... not saying "we're right, you're wrong".... only trying to explain why someone with specific "technical" knowledge might not have the same view as someone (and I am making an assumption here... maybe you are one of "us" for all I know.... ) with "practical" knowledge.

First, the fact that future systems may operate at 48V is really not relevant. When 48V systems are implemented, each component within the vehicle will be designed to operate at the appropriate voltage. When a system is required to power electric steering pumps and valve acutators which draw significant power, it will indeed be more efficient to raise the voltage and reduce the current levels and accompanying power losses and weight penalties from heavy conductors. It is very efficient to transmit power cross-country at levels in excess of 500KV, but that isn't relevant.

A few of us (apparently not too many) remember the change in 1956 from 6V to 12V operating systems, and the difficulties of transplanting parts from one vehicle to another.... a 6V part from a 1955 Chevy shoebox was not very happy in the environment of a 12V 1956 shoebox.

As far as individual components go, I have no doubt that they will "work" at higher voltage.... but will they work correctly, or will they have the same life span? In general, things like bulbs will not last as long at higher voltage. Many kinds of motors (but not all) will see a reduced life at higher voltages. These are the easy ones to "see"..... may not be important to some people that they have to replace their bulbs in 4 years rather than 6 years..... but can anyone say with certainty that the fuel pump that failed didn't fail a lot sooner because it ran constantly at 16V, rather then temporarily when needed, using a VoltBlaster? I honestly can not quantify the shortening of the life of these components, I can not tell you whether the shortening will be of any significance to the intended use of the vehicle, I can only tell you with certainty that these components will have a shorter life span.

Then there are the unknowns. Look at the injectors.... supplied with full system voltage, and shorted to ground via the drivers in the PCM to operate. How close to the edge is the driver in the stock PCM? Is it rugged enough to drive the injectors with a 33% current increase? Did GM engineer that much fat into the component.... again, I freely admit I don't know the answer to the question. I know my MoTeC is quite happy with levels up to 22V, but did GM build the stock PCM like a MoTeC component?

What about the effect of higher voltage on the offsets for those same injectors... do they open and close faster? Does this affect the tune? Is this why pu12en12g's car runs better at 16V than it does at 12V? Is the reduced offset enough to mask the effects of improper calculated pulse widths, because some other sensor is providing faulty info? I don't know.

But I have followed the question for many weeks in other forumns, and I know that the reason for asking the question is to overcome perceived problems when the car operates at a "normal" voltage level... and perhaps even below "normal" as a result of what appeared to be a problem with the alternator, battery, voltage regulator or some combination of all....

Again... I am not saying you are wrong.... only trying to point out that although something "works" at 16V levels, within the parameters that you set as acceptable, it doesn't mean that there are absolutley no negatives associated with the change. I think it can be stated with certainty that there are negatives, if only shortened bulb life (big woop!).... only quantifying those negatives is a problem.

I think that everyone who wants to pitch in deserves the right to be heard without ridicule or hostility. If pu12en12g reads the posts, and decides that the "anti" side has not made as strong a case as the "pro" side, he is free to make his own decisions, but hopefully it will be an informed decision.

Again...I am NOT saying "I am right, you are wrong".... I am simply trying to share my technical knowledge in the hope that the subject will be more fully discussed. And to help you understand why some people may have a different view than you.

Peace.

Fred

 

Man Fred! Chew my a$$! LOL

I know what you are trying to say.

As you might know my car? Bulbs are the least of my worries.

I don't see the use of a 16 volt system as a band-aid either, but as an upgrade.

As far as injectors go, mine are just fine with 16volts and would probably be fine with 480Volts (since I have a Dominator ) too. LOL

All the racers I see at the heads up races and a lot of the NHRA races are running 16 volt systems and a lot of them are running EFI (stock PCMs and aftermarket). If there was an injector tuning problem someone probably would have come forward with it by now. Maybe they have?

Dave
P.S. Fred, you can write so much here, but when I email you to find out about your DS you can't mail me back.?

------------------
If a little's good,
More is better,
And too much is just right!!!

 

The following e-mail was sent to you on 6/26, at 3:39pm......

If you didn't get it, let me know.... I sent it from work, and e-mail is actually routed through a server in Norway.... .

PS: It was not my intent to chew anyones a$$.... not sure why it came across that way....

[This message has been edited by Injuneer 94FormM6 (edited June 27, 2002).]

 

I never got it.

Well I'd have to measure mine, then. It's like 44" from u-joint center to center.

Email me again and I'll try to reply to that, with my measurement.

Dave

 

Hey thanks guys ! for posting your views on this. I think both sides have a valid argument. Mainly, when I upgrade this, I should be prepared to upgrade more stuff later as things fail.

Well, such is the situation with any modded F-Body it seems. I think that the high output alternator alone will be an upgrade, and the battery setup will be a bonus, with future mods in mind. It looks like it will run me nearly $400 for the entire setup, but I think in the long run it will be worth it.

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~ Black 95 Z A4 Convert~
P t ' s w e b p a g e
Custom PCM, ASR PCM mod, 1st gear mod, short shifter, 3" CUTOUT, TB Bypass, ported/polished MAF, Vortech/K&N CAI, LT4KM, JET IAT, BMR STB, BMR SB, BMR SFC's, TPIS Fuel Pump (Ground-Control/Eibach ERS, BMR APHR, 160 stat, Ignition Booster waiting to be installed !)

 

What did you end up getting? I need a new alternator and I'm interested in this variable one. Can you post some details?

Tia,

Dave

 

The plan to convert to 16 volt batteries may be complicated by the fact that Turbo Start has reportedly gone out of business. I'm sure there are other units available but Turbo Start was the most commonly seen 16 volt battery and external charging system seen at the track.

c.

 

A 16 volt bat and alt and everything else 12v isn't a good idea on a driver. Trailer queen no problem. Ya will be sorry when ya are driving down a lonely part of I-40 and it just shuts down and it cost 200 for a tow to the next town and ya don't have the 5-600 dollars to make it run again and the mechanic says they won't guarantee ANY part installed untill ya change the bat and alt.It happens used to put 8v bat in a 6v system and ya would go broke putting light bulbs in it.
If ya got a trailer queen,OK but for a driver I would fix whatever is wrong with the exsisting system.There are thousands running the stock system with NO problem.

 

its a bandaid, because things should work properly at 12 Volts.. Pumping 16 volts on a stock electrical system to make it work properly, means you are compensating for some sort of other problem... perhaps its as simple as an internally corroded battery cable..


Also, remember, whats good for a race car, is not necessarily good for a street car. Drag cars are only intrested in surviving 1/4 mile blasts at a time.. then they are shut down to be checked. Your street car will be on hours at at time. Thats why, even in your post's title, its usually race only.


Pumping more volts than the standard spec will decrease the life of your components.. IC, wires, caps, regulators, etc How much, depends on how things were designed and manufactured.. Is there a seperate power regulator for in our cars to clean the power feed to the PCM/injectors/sensors?


So IMO, I'd rather get the existing system working with the proper voltage.. Then if something else does blow, you know you can rely on a OEM speced part for a reliable replacement..

Else you are hopping on to a 16V power system, thats automatically puts all your stock electrical components to question. Debugging electrical problems will be a bit more intresting. If you ever have to sell the car, imagine trying to explain that to a potential buyer.

 

The AGM Turbo Start batteries are no longer available (for now). These batteries looked like the Optima and were not available in a 3 post.

The wet cell batteries are still available and are available in 3 post. The 16v chargers are not available at this time and were made by Schumacher (in china I believe). Moroso sells a 16v charger for race cars. The 16v alternator is available from Powermaster. The adjustable version is called XS volt with the variable regulator.

If you want generic compatability info I suggest a hard core stereo shop that participates in competitions. They often run the competition systems on 48v for spl contests. (with compatible equipment) This will probably be your best source for information other than a late model NHRA stock-eliminator racer than runs 16v as their cars must be complete and functional. System voltage with a 16v battery is 18-19 volts. There are many accessories that are not rated to withstand this voltage.

What you are not understanding about injector offset is that a fuel injectors opening time varies with voltage. So increasing your injectors voltage 30% will change its operating characteristics causing your tune to richen up as the injector is open longer.

The cummutator and brushes on your fuel pump will wear faster and the pump will make more noise as it will be spinning faster. The pump will also make more volume- 30% or more possibly leading to heat related issues in your fuel system. But hey, your power widows and a/c should really get after it.