LT1 4th Gen VS L98 3rd Gen
09-29-2003, 10:52 AM
#31
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I don't know what is wrong with your engines. I have a 92 z28 with the L98 and it pulls strong all the way to redline. It's got 104000 miles and I have done very liittle to it.
09-29-2003, 01:31 PM
#32
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Originally posted by 1986MCSS
OK, let me just say this
I currently own a 1988 formula 350, with all the goodies, 9 bolt 3.27 posi rear, 350 tuned port, 4 wheel discs, aluminum driveshaft, etc. Top of the line l98 car. All stock except for cat back exhaust flowmaster, and high flow converter, and i also own a 98 trans am a-4. Before the T/a i had a 95 z28 with an lt1, all stock. I raced countless iroc's, GTA's formula 350's, and none of them even came close to beating me, out of the hole, they were with me for about 3 or 4 seconds, but in was nothing but a massacre after that. I have driven this formula of mine for 3 months now, and i cannot touch an LT1 f-body, A-4 or 6 speed. My formula is in perfect running condition, and runs very strong, but i think anoyone who says they have beat a stock LT1 with a stock L98 is very dishonest. The only way possible for that to happen is if the lt1 either is not running right, or the driver is drunk, otherwise stock for stock, the lt1 is far more superior. The l98's low end torque advantage is only from 0-2500 or so rpm's, you are past 2500 rpm's in a stick or auto in less then 3 seconds, and thats when the lt1 starts pulling. just my .02.
oh yeah, if you can afford it, get the ls1, it is truly a very fun experience smashing the throttle down, and just feeling it pull through the entire rpm range, and not wanting to quit climbing up top
OK, let me just say this
I currently own a 1988 formula 350, with all the goodies, 9 bolt 3.27 posi rear, 350 tuned port, 4 wheel discs, aluminum driveshaft, etc. Top of the line l98 car. All stock except for cat back exhaust flowmaster, and high flow converter, and i also own a 98 trans am a-4. Before the T/a i had a 95 z28 with an lt1, all stock. I raced countless iroc's, GTA's formula 350's, and none of them even came close to beating me, out of the hole, they were with me for about 3 or 4 seconds, but in was nothing but a massacre after that. I have driven this formula of mine for 3 months now, and i cannot touch an LT1 f-body, A-4 or 6 speed. My formula is in perfect running condition, and runs very strong, but i think anoyone who says they have beat a stock LT1 with a stock L98 is very dishonest. The only way possible for that to happen is if the lt1 either is not running right, or the driver is drunk, otherwise stock for stock, the lt1 is far more superior. The l98's low end torque advantage is only from 0-2500 or so rpm's, you are past 2500 rpm's in a stick or auto in less then 3 seconds, and thats when the lt1 starts pulling. just my .02.
oh yeah, if you can afford it, get the ls1, it is truly a very fun experience smashing the throttle down, and just feeling it pull through the entire rpm range, and not wanting to quit climbing up top
this seems true in my neck of the woods aswell ....... I got completely smoked in my buddies L98 @ the track by a stock LS1 ...and a Lt1 ( this was semi close beet me by a .3 )
09-29-2003, 02:21 PM
#33
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A STOCK T56 LT1 motor will outrun a STOCK L98.
(NOTE: the L98 never got a manual tranny behind it from the factory)
HOWEVER...
I think that with light mods the L98 will get more bang for your buck, by far. The LT1 is almost the same motor with a new intake. Biggie whoopie. If you have any type of *real* intake mod done to your L98, i will say that you will beat the crap out of a stock LT1.
An LS1, well, sorry...but it dissapoints me. Why bother with it unless you're going to do some MASSIVE forced induction? I mean, with a 6 bolt main...jeez...all alum, that's the ONLY thing i could imagine with the motor. But stock...zippeeee, it puts down 300 rwhp. A 275 rwhp L98 with really nice gears will outdo a basic 300 horse car anyday. And the 700R4 auto has a HUGE first gear that'll blow apart other autos and often hang with (if not beat out) manuals for at least 60'.
Overall, i think that all three motors have awesome potential, but i'd take the L98 over either of the fourthgen motors. There's simply more options and more room for modification. Heck, you have a hard time just finding headers and exhaust to fit an Ls1 car. While the LT1 may have more parts avaiable, that's simply becuase its an L98 with a funky intake! They're both still smallblocks until you get to the completely redesigned LS1.
(NOTE: the L98 never got a manual tranny behind it from the factory)
HOWEVER...
I think that with light mods the L98 will get more bang for your buck, by far. The LT1 is almost the same motor with a new intake. Biggie whoopie. If you have any type of *real* intake mod done to your L98, i will say that you will beat the crap out of a stock LT1.
An LS1, well, sorry...but it dissapoints me. Why bother with it unless you're going to do some MASSIVE forced induction? I mean, with a 6 bolt main...jeez...all alum, that's the ONLY thing i could imagine with the motor. But stock...zippeeee, it puts down 300 rwhp. A 275 rwhp L98 with really nice gears will outdo a basic 300 horse car anyday. And the 700R4 auto has a HUGE first gear that'll blow apart other autos and often hang with (if not beat out) manuals for at least 60'.
Overall, i think that all three motors have awesome potential, but i'd take the L98 over either of the fourthgen motors. There's simply more options and more room for modification. Heck, you have a hard time just finding headers and exhaust to fit an Ls1 car. While the LT1 may have more parts avaiable, that's simply becuase its an L98 with a funky intake! They're both still smallblocks until you get to the completely redesigned LS1.
09-29-2003, 02:34 PM
#34
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Originally posted by mako350Z28
I don't know what is wrong with your engines. I have a 92 z28 with the L98 and it pulls strong all the way to redline. It's got 104000 miles and I have done very liittle to it.
I don't know what is wrong with your engines. I have a 92 z28 with the L98 and it pulls strong all the way to redline. It's got 104000 miles and I have done very liittle to it.
09-29-2003, 02:42 PM
#35
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Originally posted by kraftopia02
A STOCK T56 LT1 motor will outrun a STOCK L98.
(NOTE: the L98 never got a manual tranny behind it from the factory)
HOWEVER...
I think that with light mods the L98 will get more bang for your buck, by far. The LT1 is almost the same motor with a new intake. Biggie whoopie. If you have any type of *real* intake mod done to your L98, i will say that you will beat the crap out of a stock LT1.
A STOCK T56 LT1 motor will outrun a STOCK L98.
(NOTE: the L98 never got a manual tranny behind it from the factory)
HOWEVER...
I think that with light mods the L98 will get more bang for your buck, by far. The LT1 is almost the same motor with a new intake. Biggie whoopie. If you have any type of *real* intake mod done to your L98, i will say that you will beat the crap out of a stock LT1.
I'd call that very good bang for the buck.
09-29-2003, 02:46 PM
#36
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Originally posted by RobsWS6
I'd call that very good bang for the buck.
I'd call that very good bang for the buck.
09-29-2003, 02:52 PM
#37
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Originally posted by RobsWS6
I don't know about that. Back in 96 when my WS6 Formula (M6) was new, about 4K miles I took it to the track. Mods were K&N and 160 thermostat. Ran a 13.50@103.9 on a 2.0. At 6K miles I put 4.10 gears and HPP+ and ran a 13.18@104.9 on a 1.87. Stock everything else including tires.
I'd call that very good bang for the buck.
I don't know about that. Back in 96 when my WS6 Formula (M6) was new, about 4K miles I took it to the track. Mods were K&N and 160 thermostat. Ran a 13.50@103.9 on a 2.0. At 6K miles I put 4.10 gears and HPP+ and ran a 13.18@104.9 on a 1.87. Stock everything else including tires.
I'd call that very good bang for the buck.
But you must admit that the differences lie only in the intake type setup (i.e. cam, manifold, head) which can be easily modified on the L98.
In fact, i'm in the process of modding an LT1 intake to fit my L98 motor.
But i agree more with Rippin...the pricetag on your CAR was by far more than an L98 car, even though the motor itself is getting cheaper.
09-29-2003, 04:14 PM
#38
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Originally posted by Rippin92RS
Isn't redline like 4800rpm?
Isn't redline like 4800rpm?
5500
09-29-2003, 04:45 PM
#39
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Originally posted by kraftopia02
An LS1, well, sorry...but it dissapoints me. Why bother with it unless you're going to do some MASSIVE forced induction? I mean, with a 6 bolt main...jeez...all alum, that's the ONLY thing i could imagine with the motor. But stock...zippeeee, it puts down 300 rwhp. A 275 rwhp L98 with really nice gears will outdo a basic 300 horse car anyday. And the 700R4 auto has a HUGE first gear that'll blow apart other autos and often hang with (if not beat out) manuals for at least 60'.
Overall, i think that all three motors have awesome potential, but i'd take the L98 over either of the fourthgen motors. There's simply more options and more room for modification. Heck, you have a hard time just finding headers and exhaust to fit an Ls1 car. While the LT1 may have more parts avaiable, that's simply becuase its an L98 with a funky intake! They're both still smallblocks until you get to the completely redesigned LS1.
An LS1, well, sorry...but it dissapoints me. Why bother with it unless you're going to do some MASSIVE forced induction? I mean, with a 6 bolt main...jeez...all alum, that's the ONLY thing i could imagine with the motor. But stock...zippeeee, it puts down 300 rwhp. A 275 rwhp L98 with really nice gears will outdo a basic 300 horse car anyday. And the 700R4 auto has a HUGE first gear that'll blow apart other autos and often hang with (if not beat out) manuals for at least 60'.
Overall, i think that all three motors have awesome potential, but i'd take the L98 over either of the fourthgen motors. There's simply more options and more room for modification. Heck, you have a hard time just finding headers and exhaust to fit an Ls1 car. While the LT1 may have more parts avaiable, that's simply becuase its an L98 with a funky intake! They're both still smallblocks until you get to the completely redesigned LS1.
With a little work you can get an LS1 running 11s....the LS1 is the best engine GM has ever designed. The Induction setup is the best ever on an F-body, and it will outperform any TPI motor everywhere. Stock M6 LS1s run like 12.8s at the track near me.....500HP with only bolt on is more then acceptable to me. You could never get near that NA on a TPI setup. 6 bolt mains spread the load out on the block, the block was specially designed with the 6 bolt mains for durability purposes....
Short of completely changing the TPI setup to a tunnel ram design, the LT1 will destroy an TPI....the LT1 block is different, has reverse cooling, and aluminum heads among various other things. If you think you can outrun an LT1 at equal or better cost with your TPI your going to be very disappointed. New baseplates, runners, TB, and anything else you can try and do will not make that intake make high end power like an LT1. Not to mention the LT1 has a stronger bottom end. GM has made alot of bad choices...the LT1 and LS1 don't fall into that category. There is a reason the TPI design was dropped in favor of a Tunnel Ram design.
Redline doesn't mean it makes power until 5500RPM. A stock TPI setup falls flat on it's face around 3500RPM.
09-29-2003, 05:37 PM
#40
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[i]
Redline doesn't mean it makes power until 5500RPM. A stock TPI setup falls flat on it's face around 3500RPM. [/B]
Redline doesn't mean it makes power until 5500RPM. A stock TPI setup falls flat on it's face around 3500RPM. [/B]
3500??? A stock TPI 350 makes max torque at 3200 RPM and max hp at 4400 RPM. So how exactly does it fall "flat on it's face around 3500 RPM"?
09-29-2003, 05:49 PM
#41
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Drive a 350 TPI, then drive an LS1, around 3500RPM you'll feel the difference...TPI just doesn't make good power...the torque curve just falls apart....making max HP at 4500RPM and having a flat torque curve are two different things.
09-29-2003, 06:46 PM
#42
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comparing a TPI to an LS1 is like going to an *** kicking contest with one leg...it just aint right..
the LS1 has a complety differnt bore and stroke so the power isnt in the same places to begin with...the intake runner lenghts are different lenghts and diameters...so how can you compare the power curves?....i wouldnt call the LS1 torque corve flat either, more like a slight arch...with a peak of 335ft lbs @ 4,200 or so
its the hi end HP that wins the game...
and to correct an above post..
the LT1 makes more low end grunt then a L98..L98 makes more mid range
LT1 is 335 ft pounds @ 2,400
L98 is 345 ft pounds @ 3,200
and like my previous post stated, my 91 GTA with the LB9 and G92 ran a 14.1, with a muflfer, k&n, plenum grinding and me driving it like i stole it..
a 14.1 will run with 90% of stock LT1 cars bud...and a 14.1 will be a helluva stoplight run for an LS1...
the LS1 has a complety differnt bore and stroke so the power isnt in the same places to begin with...the intake runner lenghts are different lenghts and diameters...so how can you compare the power curves?....i wouldnt call the LS1 torque corve flat either, more like a slight arch...with a peak of 335ft lbs @ 4,200 or so
its the hi end HP that wins the game...
and to correct an above post..
the LT1 makes more low end grunt then a L98..L98 makes more mid range
LT1 is 335 ft pounds @ 2,400
L98 is 345 ft pounds @ 3,200
and like my previous post stated, my 91 GTA with the LB9 and G92 ran a 14.1, with a muflfer, k&n, plenum grinding and me driving it like i stole it..
a 14.1 will run with 90% of stock LT1 cars bud...and a 14.1 will be a helluva stoplight run for an LS1...
09-29-2003, 07:07 PM
#43
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You got your 305 to run 14.1 with a muffler and KN? I would love to see that timeslip....
From what I've seen at the track, most stock L98's are pulling about 14.4 at the track, I've seen some bone stock LT1's going 13.6. Once you get into modifications it becomes a runaway, simply because the TPI setup isn't high HP friendly. I'm not saying you can't get it pretty damn even LT1 vs. TPI with alot of modifications...but to say the L98 is the best motor between the 3 for modifications is well.....come on.
From what I've seen at the track, most stock L98's are pulling about 14.4 at the track, I've seen some bone stock LT1's going 13.6. Once you get into modifications it becomes a runaway, simply because the TPI setup isn't high HP friendly. I'm not saying you can't get it pretty damn even LT1 vs. TPI with alot of modifications...but to say the L98 is the best motor between the 3 for modifications is well.....come on.
09-29-2003, 07:08 PM
#44
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I never said that the LS1 wasn't an improvment. As to the torque curve of the L98, mine must be an oddity then because at full acceleration my trans shifts at 5500 RPM and will bark the tires (245/50/ZR16) shifting 1-2 and 2-3.
The problem with the L98 was the intake and heads: above 4500 RPM the engine is starving for air
Only mods are flowmaster cat-back, hypertech chip, 160 thermostat, fan switch, and K&N filters (if that can be called a mod). Working an a ram air at the moment.
The problem with the L98 was the intake and heads: above 4500 RPM the engine is starving for air
Only mods are flowmaster cat-back, hypertech chip, 160 thermostat, fan switch, and K&N filters (if that can be called a mod). Working an a ram air at the moment.
09-29-2003, 09:42 PM
#45
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Man, you're seriously going to tell me that you find it easier to modify an LS1 than an L98?????
As many have said, it's a different ballgame. I agree, i think the LS1 is a great motor, but there is simply not the availability of parts or machining for the LS1 like there is for the smallblock. Period. Yes, the TPI hits a wall (it's about 4600 rpm) and it just quits pulling (for the most part.) But that's not to say that you can't get it to run better with a better base, runners, injectors and plenum. (and, can we say...compression increase and head work?)
The reverse cooling on the LT1 is a cool idea, but i think it may do just as much harm as good. Now, granted i have never owned an LT1 car, but the fact that the coolant is forced down makes for the escaping of bubbles impossible. Think of a diver coming up for air and the nitrogen expanding in the blood...that's what i think of with LT1 reverse cooling.
And for the money, i'd love to see a forged internals L98 built with a turbo setup against an LS1, i don't care what you do to it. It would still be an interesing race.
I'm not trying to say that any one motor is "better" than another. Obviously the LS1 is going to perform well beyond a stock L98. But to say that the L98 is a motor not worth the mods, well, no, for that i cannot stand.
As many have said, it's a different ballgame. I agree, i think the LS1 is a great motor, but there is simply not the availability of parts or machining for the LS1 like there is for the smallblock. Period. Yes, the TPI hits a wall (it's about 4600 rpm) and it just quits pulling (for the most part.) But that's not to say that you can't get it to run better with a better base, runners, injectors and plenum. (and, can we say...compression increase and head work?)
The reverse cooling on the LT1 is a cool idea, but i think it may do just as much harm as good. Now, granted i have never owned an LT1 car, but the fact that the coolant is forced down makes for the escaping of bubbles impossible. Think of a diver coming up for air and the nitrogen expanding in the blood...that's what i think of with LT1 reverse cooling.
And for the money, i'd love to see a forged internals L98 built with a turbo setup against an LS1, i don't care what you do to it. It would still be an interesing race.
I'm not trying to say that any one motor is "better" than another. Obviously the LS1 is going to perform well beyond a stock L98. But to say that the L98 is a motor not worth the mods, well, no, for that i cannot stand.
Last edited by kraftopia02; 09-29-2003 at 09:48 PM.