Oh, the horror! Imagine Ford of all companies actually having a competent engineering staff, the mind reels

 

https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/sho...t=m3+benchmark

 

I've raced them anywhere from 100% bone stock to highly modified. The last class racing I did was in the NMRA Factory Stock. The name is deceiving, because as the class evolved, we got further and further away from "factory", but much of the factory equipment had to remain (power steering and stock type suspension, for example).

Certainly it is easier to get lighter when starting with a lighter car. That is the main reason I didn't step up to an S-197 chassis (2005) - the car was significantly heavier than even the SN95 (which was heavier than the Fox), and not very easy to get weight out of.

From a drag racing perspective, my main issue with weight is breakage. In 2001, my minimum weight for the combo I was running was 3500 lbs (with driver). I was 200-400 lbs heavier than 5.0 combos (my car was a 4V 4.6). I broke either a transmission or rear end at each of the last 5 races that year (Tremec was sending tranny parts gratis cause I was breaking stuff that didn't normally break at my power level...mainly input shafts).

Kind of like Guy's talk of "point of diminishing return"....when you build a driveline piece that is strong enough to hold up to the abuse, you are ultimately making some other compromises....such as THAT part(s) becoming heavy, inefficient, stupid expensive, etc, and then need more power to turn it. Point of diminishing returns...

For me....from my perspective...it is a lot easier to start off with something lighter.

Not to continue to beat the now rotting horse....but you asked.

 

I guess I’m kind of in the middle on this subject. On one hand, like Bob and Charlie, I’d rather see a nimble lightweight Z/28 that uses moderate tweaking of the LS3, improved brakes, tires and suspension, and weight lightening materials like carbon fiber to put it at the top of the pecking order. On the other hand, I understand the need to keep the costs down in order for the car to be dependable and more durable as there will be some buyers that decide to throw there cars around the track and others who will just drive them and enjoy them.

Quite frankly until we actually see the numbers/details and know what is included in the Z/28 package, how can we possibly critique the car, positively or negatively?

We’ve heard rumors that it will be supercharged and have 550hp. Everyone automatically assumes that means it’s getting the LSA. Check. However as the price difference between the LSA and the LS3 in the Camaro SS is roughly $8,000. (The LSA is a $15k engine, not a $20k engine as some have suggested.) Using the GT500 price point as a rough start, that gives us about $7,000 to play with to improve the weight and handling of this car. (Assuming the SS costs $33,000 and the LSA delta is ~$8k.) Upgrading the suspension could cure the under-steer problem with products offered by vendors on this website like Pedders and Pfadt, or others (e.g. http://www.pfadtracing.com/catalog/p...roducts_id/176 ), and companies are already producing carbon fiber hoods, and some working on carbon fiber trunk lids as well. For that additional $7k, you could theoretically improve the handling and lighten the car significantly without breaking the bank. I’m not sure what GM is planning or has already done, so I’ll wait to see what actually comes out, however I am already leaning towards buying this Z/28, regardless.

As to the supercharged vs. naturally aspirated argument; while I’m sure GM could have used a hot cam version of the LS3, or the LS7 or some derivative version thereof, and while obtaining 500+hp is perfectly achievable, would it necessarily be more dependable than the supercharged LSA? I say, “No.” In fact I’d argue that the LSA will be more durable and more dependable that such a configuration. Sure a slight weight increase must be sacrificed, however fewer warranty issues and fewer repairs will go a long way customer satisfaction and a stronger image for the company.

That said, I concur with Guy on one point on horsepower. When is there too much of a good thing? Take all the weight lighting I’ve discussed, take the suspension upgrades, better brakes and tires/wheels and throw them at the base Camaro LS. Now slap a turbo or supercharger on the 304hp V6 and for about the cost of a Camaro SS, you could have one pretty awesome car that has the potential to slay the Mustang GT. Something to think about?

 

Where are you guys seeing that the 2011 GT500 will weigh in at 3700 lbs?

I can't find a link.

 

You know, I've taken an awful lot of physics in my day, both college and post graduate level, and those darned laws of it are pretty much unavoidable. The CTS-V is a wonderful, gorgeous, fast, Cadillac sedan. But the CTS-V is certainly not what I'd call nimble - not what I'd call the Z/28 formula. Plus, your assumption is that the Z/28 will be every bit as good as the V. That could be a stretch.



Yeah, who knows. But I've seen times for the GT500 all over the place, both faster and slower than the CTS-V. Let's just call them comparable.


Wow. Let's just say I couldn't disagree more. In fact, we are SO far apart here, that I'll just agree to disagree.

So, what happens when/if the GT500 cuts a better 1/4 mile time than the Z/28 - will handling be important then?

 

Current GT500 ~3900-ish pounds. Next year's GT500 loses 100-200 pounds.

 

Because of the aluminum block? Are we sure the car's weight will be lower or are we guessing it will be lower because of the block?

If that's the case I would guess about 50-70 lbs lighter.

Just curious. Not trying to start a pissing match.

 

The Al block alone will be nearly 100 pounds less. Where the rest comes from, I have no idea.

 

Supposedly, there are many parts and pieces, in the current GT500, that are WAY overbuilt, for the car.

General consensus, from engineer type people, who work for Ford, is a loss of 175lbs.

They do admit, however, that they do not know the extent of Fords lightening program. The block is the biggie, but there will be small weight losses from a large amount of parts. A bunch of small amounts equal a pretty good loss, especially when there is a concentrated effort to do so.

 

According to Edmunds the CTS-V is 298 lbs heavier than the 2010 GT500 and has "comparable" straight line stats....so I would say there is hope!

CTS-V - 4222 lbs
GT500 - 3924 lbs

 

While we're onto the subject of innuendo, the GT500 engine might lose 100lbs when the Coyote takes pride of place but the chassis will need reinforcement to pass 2012 safety mandates. That would almost negate any weight savings.

 

Huh??

What does the Coyote 5.0 have to do with the GT500 for the 2011 MY??

Of course, you are just salivating at the hope that it takes 300lbs of reinforcement of the chassis, to meet said 2012 regs. You would probably be surprised by how little it will take, if the chassis doesn't meet them already.

 

OK. I just realized the GT500 will stay with a 5.4L engine and won't go to the 5.0L S/C 'Miami'. Anyway, I'm not that well acquainted with Ford news.

Although, what I have stated still makes sense. If your rumor of 175 lb drop is accurate, we still don't understand how it will be achieved. If Mustang needs chassis reinforcement, it makes your rumor seem even less likely.

We won't have to wait too much longer to find out.

 

The block obviously, but theres also the heavy steel driveshaft, and those big rotors up front (Mitsu has set the precedent for 2 piece rotors in a production car IIRC). The roof skin is steel and I dont believe the skin is a structural component.

Beyond the block I'm just guessing where they might trim weight - hell, Ford might even have the S-197 on a program similar to the miata's and is going over every wire and every fastener triming bits and pieces here and there (didn't Mazda cut out 80 pounds to offset the weight gain in the chassis?).

An AL or some sort of metal matrix driveshaft like GM has used in conjunction with the AL block and some thoughtful reduction in the chassis like Miata would get that 175-200 pound drop without going into the rest of the drivetrain.