THANK YOU!

Charlie -- go look at the post you created a while back on weight -- something along the lines of a 4,000 lb Camaro versus a 3,500 lb Mustang...the figures tell the story -- esp. when you realize - that weight is an issue to a very few. WE are more concerned about weight than just about anyone (WHY do I have to keep going over this???) -- because of CAFE.......

We have established you don't like the car.

Fine --

 

On that, you've got me. I agree with that as well.

 

First and foremost, handling is almost all about transitional ability. How quickly the car changes direction. "Nimbleness" if you will. Part of this is balance.

Next in handling is response. Will the car promptly do what the driver asks?

Last is outright grip. (Balance can have an effect here as well) That's why skidpad numbers tell us squat about how a car handles. That's why a big road course like Nurburgring with a lot of big sweepers isn't much better sometimes. Still, 'ring performance is a better measuring stick than nothing at all.




I'd like to respond to your comments about weight and how a heavier car could possibly handle better.

There is a very big difference in 300 lbs at the 2600 to 2900 range (Miata to Solstice) than in the 3500 to 3800 range (Mustang GT and Mustang Cobra). I know those aren't the exact numbers being used but it is approximately where my examples fit.

The Solstice is very competitive with the Miata although it does have significantly bigger tires to help it's performance. On the other hand, the GT slaughters the Cobra through the cones.

In other words, weight can be managed until it increases to such a point that you can no longer hide it through chassis engineering or bigger tires.

 

I'm merely engaged in conversation here.

And no, we have not established that I don't like the car. We HAVE established that I don't like it's mass.

And if that poll, back from the dead, from last winter is any true indication, (eventhough you tell me all my polls here are unscientific - which admittedly they are), of buyer intentions, this car will be wildly successful. And I hope it is.

BTW, about CAFE - I predict that this car will be CAFE negative, isn't that going to be an issue if that's the case?

 

Scott, could you hypothesize for a moment?

Let's assume the new car sells very well. Let's assume that it is more than enough for a 6th gen to be approved.

What do you think we would see in that car? The same as what we are about to get or something a bit smaller and lighter? I guess '81 to '82 is the best analogy I can think of.

Obviously I/we won't hold you to this and I/we also don't expect you to reveal anything being planned.

I am simply interested in your best guess on what the future holds for Camaro.



I guess I know you won't venture a guess. Not because you don't want to but because it probably wouldn't be the best thing for you to do. I just can't help but think how successful the next car could be if your concerns and our concerns could be addressed (since they are exactly the same concerns but perhaps for different reasons).

 

Makes sense to me.

For what it's worth, I've read tests in the Aussie mags of the new VE Commodore (G8) and the older VT-VZ (GTO). When the VE first came out, there was concern over the extra ~100kg (200 pounds in round numbers). The verdict was unanimous, however, that the new car was a far and away better drive in every respect except straight line performance (where it was about a wash).

I think that's where SSbaby is coming from. He apparently has many km in both.

 

I'd be interested in Scott's thoughts on that also - purely from a hypothetical perspective. But my minds eye sees the '81 to '82 transition as a good analogy as well. Except this time, powertrain has it's act together from the get-go.

 

Not if the Volt is wildly successful too! Remember it's the average of the entire fleet.

If GM can get the Volt out, it will be a great halo car, and it will also help CAFE. It'll get mindshare in the coastal big cities like no Camaro ever could. I hope they can make money on it too.

I'd love to see Volts instead of Priuses, Camrys, and Civics around here.

 

Oh yeah, me too. I'm hoping that the Volt eventually becomes a game changer for GM. I'd doubt that GM would be willing to sacrifice Volt's CAFE credits for the Camaro though. At some point (soon), Camaro will at least need to become CAFE neutral.

 

I doubt it. You can't directly figure CAFE contribution from EPA numbers any more, but I'll bet the V6 Camaro is a little CAFE negative even at the current 27.5 number. Since CAFE is going up, they would never have introduced the Camaro if it needed to be CAFE neutral.

Besides, it's not like each line gets credits. They take the fuel mileage of all vehicles sold by a mfr (after applying myriad credits) and average that. Currently, that's done for domestic (really NAFTA, iirc) and imports (really non-NAFTA) separately, but iirc (again) that changes with the new CAFE.

Remember that you don't get any benefit for exceeding CAFE (other than favorable press), so one of the jobs of the Volt will be to help GM with CAFE.

But obviously, every car counts, and as he's posted, a higher CAFE contribution number is always better than a lower one.

Looking at the rate of powertrain development, I think there's more bang for the buck increasing powertrain efficiency than reducing weight (not that the latter won't be important). Just look at the Prius with around a 55mpg CAFE number at 2900 pounds (plus whatever credits it may get).

I think Ford's apparently decision to drop the F100 in favor of Ecoboost is evidence of that.

 

I think it takes both.

Ford has already made public it's intentions to drop from 250-750 pounds on all of it's North American products from 2012 -2020.

Maybe you should contact them, and tell them they don't have to bother.

 

Yeah, the Camaro is going to feel like a Durango. Yeah, let's go with that.

 

Ummm.... you're saying that, not me. Maybe you can explain yourself, and please add some of those fancy rolleyes smilies for effect...

 

Really? Ok, let's go with that too, and yes the fancy rolleyes and every other
icon is there for effect.

 

Now go back and read what I wrote. I wrote that there was more bang for the buck in powertrain development. I did not write that weight reduction was not important.

I'm not expecting all the pronouncements of the great automotive industry diet to come true, though once again, I'll be pleasantly surprised if they do.