Lets get real about the weight of the Camaro
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From: Santa Clara, CA
Car and Driver called the '84 Z/28 the Best Handling Car in America:
http://www.thirdgen.org/besthandling...driver-may1984
And later that year C&D called the Z/28 the best handling car - period.
http://www.thirdgen.org/besthandling...driver-oct1984
You're not going to like it, but I think it actually supports 99SilverSS somewhat
Btw, they called the 944 the best handling car, not the Z/28.
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From: Santa Clara, CA
And it's not like the Mustang powertrain is from the stone age, but it is behind the L76.
Aerodynamics is another area for improvement.
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From: SoCal
You say the car has to live in the real world but that doesn't really answer my question as to why the car was not equipped to be a drag car if it was intended to be just that.
The general public believes they are drag cars because they know many more people who have drag raced them successfully than people who have road raced them successfully. Ignorance doesn't support the assumption. Obviously there are more drag racers and street racers out there than road racers. Obviously there are more drag strips and stop lights than road courses. Like I said, the unititiated have gotten the wrong idea over the years because the car can be successful doing either one.
Yes, the groups I mentioned are different. One knows what the car is for. One does not. I'll let you decide which is which.
Cars like the Miata are classed much differently in autocross than road racing. In autocross, the Camaro is in a lower class. The same is NOT true in road racing. This is simply the result of the differences in the competition. And no, a drag race with an RX7 in my car would be a driver's race. I would not embarrass that car. (I'm talking about the turbo model here)
Like you said, we'll have to agree to disagree I guess. Your mind is obviously made up. I'll leave you with this though.... I don't know what you have ever done with your car. I don't know if you have drag raced it, autocrossed it or run it at a road course... but take it from someone who has done all that... the Camaro is least at home at the dragstrip.
The general public believes they are drag cars because they know many more people who have drag raced them successfully than people who have road raced them successfully. Ignorance doesn't support the assumption. Obviously there are more drag racers and street racers out there than road racers. Obviously there are more drag strips and stop lights than road courses. Like I said, the unititiated have gotten the wrong idea over the years because the car can be successful doing either one.
Yes, the groups I mentioned are different. One knows what the car is for. One does not. I'll let you decide which is which.
Cars like the Miata are classed much differently in autocross than road racing. In autocross, the Camaro is in a lower class. The same is NOT true in road racing. This is simply the result of the differences in the competition. And no, a drag race with an RX7 in my car would be a driver's race. I would not embarrass that car. (I'm talking about the turbo model here)
Like you said, we'll have to agree to disagree I guess. Your mind is obviously made up. I'll leave you with this though.... I don't know what you have ever done with your car. I don't know if you have drag raced it, autocrossed it or run it at a road course... but take it from someone who has done all that... the Camaro is least at home at the dragstrip.
I've been more of the casual drag racer. I've made probably 250 passes in stock and near stock Camaros and some other vehicles. I've never ventured out to the auto x or road course but I did enjoy spirited driving in the many twisty roads in SoCal after moving out here. The Z28 was ok the SS was much better and well my sport bike takes the cake but that should be expected.
I'll sum up my whole point with this. Lets take a my 99 SS's best off the showroom stock pass that I think was around 13.15 @ 108. (after much practice and many far worse runs) That time will rank far better against Porsche Boxter, Mustangs, RX7/8's, 350Z's, M3's, and Vettes or other cars in the close class with the Camaro that it's road course/Auto X handling. (All cars can be modified so leave that out.)
That's by no means to say the Camaro can't compete but like many magazines even Charlie mentioned and others over the years the Camaro usually has a bigger power to weight ratio and excels on the straights but just competes on the turns.
That’s why I brought up the Z/28 and 1LE because without a more focused attempt on suspension and handling the Camaro which is easily at home at the strip with a SBC and a solid axle needs a bit more help when the road turns right or left.
Yes, on this we are in complete agreement. And FWIW, I have always enjoyed the curves more than the straights. Even as a young kid, I enjoyed watching road racing over anything else on TV. My uncle (1972 454 SS Chevelle) and Dad (1968 327 Chevelle) could never understand it.
However, I will freely admit that in person, nothing and I mean nothing can hold a candle to the show that the NHRA puts on. Not NASCAR, not the IRL, not dirt racing. I've attended them all but nothing comes close to the NHRA. So don't think I'm an anti drag racing snob.
However, I will freely admit that in person, nothing and I mean nothing can hold a candle to the show that the NHRA puts on. Not NASCAR, not the IRL, not dirt racing. I've attended them all but nothing comes close to the NHRA. So don't think I'm an anti drag racing snob.
I totally agree about the NHRA. I've seen NASCAR, Indy and F1 the NHRA is the most extreem vehicles in motor sport. I hope they get back to racing the full 1320 but safety is safety I guess. F1 is a close second though.
Last edited by 99SilverSS; Aug 14, 2008 at 11:28 PM.
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Yeah, I just looked it. Last time I read that was 24 years ago!
I think the Z/28 had an extremely respectable showing. I was as proud of it just now, as I was a quarter century ago, when I first read that piece. A great read, from a time when magazines seriously compared Camaros to Porsches - just think about that for a second.
According to C&D, it "trounced" the 944 at the track, but ultimately the Porsche edged it out overall. Camaro's greater mass than the 944's, is mentioned more than once as one of the reasons why.
Last edited by Z284ever; Aug 14, 2008 at 08:23 PM.
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Give me an upgrade package that includes a turbo version of the 6cylinder, with some of the gizmos left out to keep the weight the same as the regular 6, call it the R/S-T or something similarly catchy, price it at 30-32k, and I'll pawn off my first child to get it. I really do love the car...I just can't get past 3900lbs of the V-8 version. And I have no V-8 loyalty if it's possible to get better off the showroom floor performance out of a 6. Whatever can give me equal grins on a curvy road and a stoplight.
Hear me Scott? I WILL buy that. Period. And I think a LOT of other people would too. Because that would be an awesome combination.
Gimme 9 months advance notice before it comes out so I can get busy
Hear me Scott? I WILL buy that. Period. And I think a LOT of other people would too. Because that would be an awesome combination.
Gimme 9 months advance notice before it comes out so I can get busy
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From: Melbourne, Australia
Check on the specs of a Subaru STi (2L turbocharged, AWD, ... which is no bigger than Cobalt size)... the weight of that thing is upwards of 3400lbs.
Now, correct me if I get my history all screwy... but Camaro was never that small, although I do believe it weighed less at some point in its history. But that was during an era where every other 'big coupe' weighed less... even the same spec Subaru STi weighed 2750 lbs - only a decade ago. Go figure!
Now, correct me if I get my history all screwy... but Camaro was never that small, although I do believe it weighed less at some point in its history. But that was during an era where every other 'big coupe' weighed less... even the same spec Subaru STi weighed 2750 lbs - only a decade ago. Go figure!
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Depending on trim levels and tranmissions, all that seperates the V8 from the V6 is 144-163lbs for the auto and 80-119 for the manual. Considering that you'd probably want the turbo'd V6 to have the upgraded brakes and (probably) bigger sway bars, there really wouldn't be that much of a weight advantage. Hell, you could make up the weight difference by having less gas in the tank or going on a diet.
I'm not turbo "smart", so forgive me, but how easy would it be to get 122hp & 135lbs tq out of the V6 to match the LS3?
And then there might be an issue with reliability of the V6 transmissions holding up to LS3 power levels.
Sorry, but I just don't see it.
Last edited by Ron78Z&01SS; Aug 15, 2008 at 02:24 AM.
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Yeah, I just looked it. Last time I read that was 24 years ago!
I think the Z/28 had an extremely respectable showing. I was as proud of it just now, as I was a quarter century ago, when I first read that piece. A great read, from a time when magazines seriously compared Camaros to Porsches - just think about that for a second.
According to C&D, it "trounced" the 944 at the track, but ultimately the Porsche edged it out overall. Camaro's greater mass than the 944's, is mentioned more than once as one of the reasons why.
I think the Z/28 had an extremely respectable showing. I was as proud of it just now, as I was a quarter century ago, when I first read that piece. A great read, from a time when magazines seriously compared Camaros to Porsches - just think about that for a second.
According to C&D, it "trounced" the 944 at the track, but ultimately the Porsche edged it out overall. Camaro's greater mass than the 944's, is mentioned more than once as one of the reasons why.
You'll see a 'Vette in my driveway before a Porsche, though I can understand why it's the other way for some people. But you'll see a Camaro before either of those.
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Yeah. I'll bet the new one will trounce a Cayman at the track too. At least if it's a similar type of track to what was in the test. But the Porsche will probably win again too, for the same reasons. That's okay. If I wanted a Porsche, I'd buy a four year old Boxster S (and then prepare to pull out the credit card for service).
You'll see a 'Vette in my driveway before a Porsche, though I can understand why it's the other way for some people. But you'll see a Camaro before either of those.
You'll see a 'Vette in my driveway before a Porsche, though I can understand why it's the other way for some people. But you'll see a Camaro before either of those.
You think it'll trounce the Cayman? I'd be very skeptical of that, considering the V8 Camaro will weigh almost half a ton more. And the fact that the 5th gen, (even with 162 hp more, better front and rear suspension, more tire and Brembos), could only shave 2 seconds off of the Cobalt SS's 'ring times. Honestly, I can't imagine anyone comparing the 5th gen to a Porsche - those days, I think, are over.
I've never been crazy about the rear engined Porsches either. I can see why people like them though - but they're just not for me. The turbo versions are simply animals though. Especially the early 930s. Hit about 3000rpm, and the car literally EXPLODES with power. Hard not to like that - but you need to be attentive, it could very easily bite you.
I always preferred the front engined Porsches. Just my personal preference. They seemed Camaro-esque to me - but on a whole different level. I almost bought a leftover '86 black/black , 944 Turbo in 1987. Very, very sweet car, but decided I wasn't really a Porsche guy.
Last edited by Z284ever; Aug 16, 2008 at 07:56 PM.
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That's one of those situations where it would be very course dependent. The more open the track, the longer the straights, the fewer the number of corners, the more the Cayman would be at the mercy of horsepower. The Cayman would likely dominate if run on a smaller, tighter, busier course.
Just another reason I hate using road courses to determine what car handles better. It's far too subjective.
I've never been a big Porsche fan either but those Caymans are sweet. Actually, I'm a big fan of a lot of different cars. Cars like the Cayman, Exige, GXP Solstice, StEVO, Cobalt SS turbo, BMW M cars and many others.
Problem is, I'm a juvenile Neanderthal knuckle dragger at heart. I keep my cars too long and I doubt any of those cars would keep me entertained beyond the length of a loan.
I need a hard to manage car that requires a fair dose of driver skill to extract its full potential. I need one that will kill the rear tires at will. I'm sure I would enjoy the impressive abilities of those other cars but eventually I'm going to want to steer the car with the throttle and the wheel.
That's why autocrossing my Camaro is just so damn much fun. It is also why it's so satisfying when you get it right. More than one national champion has said that if you can autocross a pony car well, you can race anything well. Unfortunately it looks like I'll be moving up to racing a Corvette in the future. I'm keeping the old car though.
Just another reason I hate using road courses to determine what car handles better. It's far too subjective.
I've never been a big Porsche fan either but those Caymans are sweet. Actually, I'm a big fan of a lot of different cars. Cars like the Cayman, Exige, GXP Solstice, StEVO, Cobalt SS turbo, BMW M cars and many others.
Problem is, I'm a juvenile Neanderthal knuckle dragger at heart. I keep my cars too long and I doubt any of those cars would keep me entertained beyond the length of a loan.
I need a hard to manage car that requires a fair dose of driver skill to extract its full potential. I need one that will kill the rear tires at will. I'm sure I would enjoy the impressive abilities of those other cars but eventually I'm going to want to steer the car with the throttle and the wheel.
That's why autocrossing my Camaro is just so damn much fun. It is also why it's so satisfying when you get it right. More than one national champion has said that if you can autocross a pony car well, you can race anything well. Unfortunately it looks like I'll be moving up to racing a Corvette in the future. I'm keeping the old car though.
Last edited by Chewbacca; Aug 15, 2008 at 03:11 PM.
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That right there, what the car is named, IMO is why we have any outcry over the weight.
If the car was named... ohhh let's say Chevelle... and had the appropriate sheetmetal, would anybody have a problem with the weight?
I know I wouldn't and I've been screaming about weight for a long time. Those cars aren't supposed to be tossable pony cars. They're brutes. They're muscle cars.
Honestly, the new car is closer to the spirit of a Chevelle (big, solid, well appointed, comfortable car with a monster under the hood) than it is to the spirit of Camaro. Because it carries the Camaro name it has to live up to the standard of its forebearers.
I feel it would be far more effective at carrying that burden if it was named Chevelle. We simply wouldn't be having these debates because it would be more true to the standard associated with its name.
If the car was named... ohhh let's say Chevelle... and had the appropriate sheetmetal, would anybody have a problem with the weight?
I know I wouldn't and I've been screaming about weight for a long time. Those cars aren't supposed to be tossable pony cars. They're brutes. They're muscle cars.
Honestly, the new car is closer to the spirit of a Chevelle (big, solid, well appointed, comfortable car with a monster under the hood) than it is to the spirit of Camaro. Because it carries the Camaro name it has to live up to the standard of its forebearers.
I feel it would be far more effective at carrying that burden if it was named Chevelle. We simply wouldn't be having these debates because it would be more true to the standard associated with its name.
But you gotta realize that in the old days the market could support 3 or 4 different "muscle coupes" from each manufacturer, but nowdays they can support 1 at most (and even that is iffy). Other than the Mustang and high-end cars, the coupe market is almost completely dead!
So the new Camaro has to be the old Camaro and the old Chevelle and the old Monte Carlo, all in one.
"Camaro" has the best brand recognition and the best enthusiast base, so logically that's the best name for a "Chevy Coupe". Obviously one car can't totally replace the Monza/Camaro/Chevelle/Monte Caro, but "Camaro" is clearly the best bet here.
Maybe they can't make every super-specific "Camaro" enthusiast happy, but there's a whole lotta "Chevrolet" enthusiasts out there that would love to have any V8/RWD muscle coupe they can get.
To quote Star Trek, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few
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I agree with you that the new Camaro is probably more like the (ancient history) midsized Chevelle.
But you gotta realize that in the old days the market could support 3 or 4 different "muscle coupes" from each manufacturer, but nowdays they can support 1 at most (and even that is iffy). Other than the Mustang and high-end cars, the coupe market is almost completely dead!
So the new Camaro has to be the old Camaro and the old Chevelle and the old Monte Carlo, all in one.
"Camaro" has the best brand recognition and the best enthusiast base, so logically that's the best name for a "Chevy Coupe". Obviously one car can't totally replace the Monza/Camaro/Chevelle/Monte Caro, but "Camaro" is clearly the best bet here.
Maybe they can't make every super-specific "Camaro" enthusiast happy, but there's a whole lotta "Chevrolet" enthusiasts out there that would love to have any V8/RWD muscle coupe they can get.
To quote Star Trek, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few
But you gotta realize that in the old days the market could support 3 or 4 different "muscle coupes" from each manufacturer, but nowdays they can support 1 at most (and even that is iffy). Other than the Mustang and high-end cars, the coupe market is almost completely dead!
So the new Camaro has to be the old Camaro and the old Chevelle and the old Monte Carlo, all in one.
"Camaro" has the best brand recognition and the best enthusiast base, so logically that's the best name for a "Chevy Coupe". Obviously one car can't totally replace the Monza/Camaro/Chevelle/Monte Caro, but "Camaro" is clearly the best bet here.
Maybe they can't make every super-specific "Camaro" enthusiast happy, but there's a whole lotta "Chevrolet" enthusiasts out there that would love to have any V8/RWD muscle coupe they can get.
To quote Star Trek, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few
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I agree with you that the new Camaro is probably more like the (ancient history) midsized Chevelle.
But you gotta realize that in the old days the market could support 3 or 4 different "muscle coupes" from each manufacturer, but nowdays they can support 1 at most (and even that is iffy). Other than the Mustang and high-end cars, the coupe market is almost completely dead!
So the new Camaro has to be the old Camaro and the old Chevelle and the old Monte Carlo, all in one.
"Camaro" has the best brand recognition and the best enthusiast base, so logically that's the best name for a "Chevy Coupe". Obviously one car can't totally replace the Monza/Camaro/Chevelle/Monte Caro, but "Camaro" is clearly the best bet here.
Maybe they can't make every super-specific "Camaro" enthusiast happy, but there's a whole lotta "Chevrolet" enthusiasts out there that would love to have any V8/RWD muscle coupe they can get.
To quote Star Trek, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few
But you gotta realize that in the old days the market could support 3 or 4 different "muscle coupes" from each manufacturer, but nowdays they can support 1 at most (and even that is iffy). Other than the Mustang and high-end cars, the coupe market is almost completely dead!
So the new Camaro has to be the old Camaro and the old Chevelle and the old Monte Carlo, all in one.
"Camaro" has the best brand recognition and the best enthusiast base, so logically that's the best name for a "Chevy Coupe". Obviously one car can't totally replace the Monza/Camaro/Chevelle/Monte Caro, but "Camaro" is clearly the best bet here.
Maybe they can't make every super-specific "Camaro" enthusiast happy, but there's a whole lotta "Chevrolet" enthusiasts out there that would love to have any V8/RWD muscle coupe they can get.
To quote Star Trek, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few
I know lots of people, inside and outside of GM, who would have preferred that this car ended up being more Camaro and less Monte Carlo. It is what it is though.
As far as the needs of the many outweighing the few - well, we'll see. Let's hope Chevy chose correctly. With the recent change in consumer preferences and CAFE, I think some people at GM are really holding their collective breathe over this one right now - wishing that the "Chevy Coupe" was more Camaro and less Monte Carlo/Chevelle.
Last edited by Z284ever; Aug 16, 2008 at 07:57 PM.
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I think there's truth in this post.
I know lots of people, inside and outside of GM, who would have preferred that this car ended up being more Camaro and less Monte Carlo. It is what it is though.
As far as the needs of the many outweighing the few - well, we'll see. Let's hope Chevy chose correctly. With the recent change in consumer preferences and CAFE, I think some people at GM are really holding their collective breathe over this one right now - wishing that the "Chevy Coupe" was more Camaro and less Monte Carlo/Chevelle.
I know lots of people, inside and outside of GM, who would have preferred that this car ended up being more Camaro and less Monte Carlo. It is what it is though.
As far as the needs of the many outweighing the few - well, we'll see. Let's hope Chevy chose correctly. With the recent change in consumer preferences and CAFE, I think some people at GM are really holding their collective breathe over this one right now - wishing that the "Chevy Coupe" was more Camaro and less Monte Carlo/Chevelle.