So you've concluded that Camaro is no longer

1) AFFORDABLE
2) A PERFORMANCE

car... on what basis, exactly?

 

uhmmmm........no, that's NOT what I meant --

There were people talking LS7 -- LS9 -- LS2 -- and so forth.....also no one was quite sure of what the base engine would be.......

.........oh -- and wait a minute!!!! What makes you think there AREN'T engines in the pipeline that you haven't seen before????????

.........therefore my quote "forget the engine" remark.

No one was guesssing L99 with AFM -- no one was guessing a direct injection V6 with 300 horsepower -- and, at the time, we were going to have TWO V6 engines......

Go study your history lessons -- keeping in mind that I'm not going anywhere real soon -- and that I DO know that people watch what I say.

 

I think you just disproved your point when you said "go on a Corvette forum"....

 

I'm waiting with baited breath to see what the car rags have to say. I HOPE it's not the same thing they said when the new WRX STi came out. That car "grew up" and got "civilized" and the reaction wasn't good...as far as press goes. Shame about it going from 31k to 36k too. Granted, I have no idea what that did for sales, but it sure as hell changed the demographic and pissed off some of the fans of that car.

I wanna believe, fbodyfather, I do. My first car was a camaro. I LOVE the design. I just wish that it looked the same but was built overall smaller. I REALLY hope that in the quest to be all things to all people, it didn't lose sight of it's original purpose. I know that's one of the main reasons why all cars have been gaining weight...government regs play a role but every new generation of car has gotten bigger. It's not just the regulations.

Here's hoping that this "gas crisis" we're in gets the general public to wake the hell up and realize that they've all been driving about 1.5 times the car that they need, and that more fun can be had with something more tossable....and that simple can be awesome in it's own right.

I've got my fingers crossed, I hope this generation of camaro is enjoyable for me, as it'll be the first one that I can buy new. I have no doubt it's a great car, and that it'll perform well and be very nice...I'm just having major doubts if it's the kind of car that I wanted. If it's not, you can be sure that I'll be sticking around and hoping it does well anyways, to ensure that the next version will keep the power around 300 and be built on a small, rear wheel drive platform, and weigh in around 3300lbs. If government regulations mandate that cars keep getting better mpg, I see the corvette dropping to 2800ish, like the solstice, and so 3300 would not be unthinkable for a camaro. It'll just have to be smaller.

Make mine a V-6, whatever is needed to keep power levels to 300ish and lessen the weight.

 

Actually, when that comment was made, I remember it being bounced around by a number of people. The price tag of the LS9 was also discussed and very few seemed to be interested in the cost.

 

Surely you've read the reason why in many other posts. As I (and others) have said before, some of us are just not Corvette guys.

I have never accused the engineers of being lazy or of being stupid. Quite the oppsoite actually and that is exactly the reason for our frustration. We know what they can do when they're turned loose. I feel they've done quite well in turning a big four door sedan into something that at least resembles a Camaro. What could they do if they weren't hamstrung with such a platform from the outset? That's what I want in the next car (if there is one).

You do realize that the Camaro competes in forms of grassroots motorsports that do not allow this sort of thing, right?


You still haven't answered my questions with regard to perception....

What about the other 99% of the market GM is trying to reach with the car? The ones who aren't already card carrying members of the new car fan club and have never owned a Camaro. How will their decision be affected if the car gains the reputation of being heavy and "unwieldy".

Will they still buy the car if the weight is a detriment in comparison tests?
Will they still buy the car if the weight is a detriment in competition?


I'm not sure I see your point Scott.

I used a car with a long time rabid core base of customers. Just like here.
I used a car that was all but canceled and left to die at one point. Ours actually expired.
I used a car that not so long ago made a major shift in design. Just like here.
I used a car that gained respect outside the fan base with that new design. We'll see if that happens here.

Do I expect the new car to be as light as a Corvette, be constructed like a Corvette or have all the features of a Corvette? Well no, of course not.

Again, I'm not sure I understand...

 

I am only going to ask this nicely one more time, and then I will start handing out infractions and limiting people's accounts. This is not something I want to be doing but it is going to happen if people cannot participate without putting a negative spin on everything.

This site is linked directly from the official Camaro page on Chevrolet's site. People go there for Camaro information, and then follow the link here to see what's going on with "Camaro enthusiasts". It does not do this community a bit of good when they arrive to see people bickering, being rude, picking each other's words apart, and overall ruining threads and it needs to end. If anyone disagrees with this, CamaroZ28.Com is simply not for for them.

 

People are vocal because they are passionate.
No matter what we are always going to want some change to make it even better. It's good to always push to achieve more and better things

I guess the alternative is we can be complacent like the ford camp and have a weak slow car for the last 15 years.

Or the mopar camp and have no car for the last 30 years.

We only complain because we care
and because we know chevy dominates ford and chrysler in performance and we are proud of that and want to keep it that way.

 

I guess i just don't feel like constructive criticism is a bad thing.

Some of these things become flame-fests (and honestly, as flame-fests go, they're pretty low-key...) because of the passions associated. Dimming those passions would be a good thing towards keeping the conversations productive.



That being said, saying something to the effect of the following:

"Wow, F4 window regulators had a lot of problems."

Isn't a flame-fest, and is constructive. They did have a lot of problems. I'm betting that got addressed in the new car. When the new car is out and can be driven, the most effective way to improve the breed is to capture those criticisms.



Right now, very, very few have driven it... so what is going to capture most of the attention is the specifications as listed. Weight being the predominant concern.

One does not have to drive a car to recognize weight as detrimental to a whole list of things...

While i certainly appreciate the fact that the driving dynamics might be phenominal, and the car is going to be pretty quick, that's still a valid criticism - were it lighter, all those things would be better.



Again, and i've said this repeatedly, the important point now is what is done about the weight... and here's the fact:

The mass of the vehicle can be decreased somewhat. I'll bet my career and anything else you'd want me to bet on it. It can also be done for zero net cost on either end (either GM's or the customers) beyond the salary costs for the engineers required to do so... and, BTW... those are "fixed" costs, which means GM is paying them anyway.

Recognizing an issue, and then stating there's an issue, and then providing a path to resolving the issue is not a flame-fest or inherently negative... just like closing one's eyes to issues and stating everything is perfect is not inherently positive.




*

 

Constructive criticism is fine. What I referenced above is not, and there is an easily definable difference.

 

Maybe you should define it then.
I've read your blog called "What I don't like about the 2010 Camaro "
You list 10 things you don't like.
https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/blog.php?b=43
Honestly, I was very surprised you wrote it considering how you don't like us complaining about things.
The thing is the things you complain...er don't like are ALL subjective and while half might not like it, the other half will.

Only thing I've complained about is the one thing universally not liked.
As for everybody else I don't know.
I think some of the "solutions" people come up with (lets delete power locks and windows and save a whole 8 lbs, are laughable) cause the arguing problems not the actual initial issue.

I'm going to go stand in the corner now

 

Glad you bought my blog entry up, because it is a is a fine example. I never said complaints weren't allowed, please read the words I actually used.

It is very, very simple. Again, there is a fine line between constructive criticism and...
...which seems to happen in nearly every weight thread, usually by the same few people. Some have mentioned leaving the site because they are sick of seeing "Camaro enthusiasts" outright bashing the car, the people behind it, and other people here. The wrong people are leaving. People need to grow up and be polite and respectful of the car and each other and remember what kind of site this is. Everyone reading this post knows exactly what I am talking about.

This is not hard to figure out and I can't really define it any further. I am not going to play detention hall monitor and I am not going to hold everyone's hand. Everyone is expected to be an adult here and know where they are and know right from wrong. If people truly want the car to be better, it will show in their posts no matter what is being typed. There's no more to it, carry on and govern yourselves accordingly.

 

At some point the car is what it is and that is that. We've all heard the same reasons, Too heavy, odd interior and expected poor handling.... etc.
People want to hide behind a label of them being passionate or call it constructive criticism. As if GM is listening in and making changes based on their complaints. I can say there are far more issues for the Camaro brought up inside GM and during development than anyone here will ever know. So if your complaining so as if to help change the car fine. Make the complaint and be done with it. The constant bickering and arguing about things that can't be changed gets very old. Especially since nobody here has driven this Camaro.
Ultimately all the complaints, likes and dislikes of the Camaro will be settled on sales numbers. IF we get a 6th Gen and these issues are "fixed" who is to say others won't arise. Not everyone can be pleased all the time.


As for this car. I'll hold final judgement until it's on sale in front of me and I can drive it and determine if what I'm being sold is worth the cost. Until then what else can really be done?

 

Some of us are just not saying anything or very little about the weight. There is a silent majority at least among enthusiasts who are extremely upset by the weight.

Personally I have an 06 Mn6 vette for cruising, fun on the street and road courses. I wanted a 2010 Camaro w/ an automatic for drag racing.

I have owned a 79 firebird as my first car back in 1986, a 1989 camaro rs and a 96 trans am before the vette. So I am a diehard Fbody guy.

I have been down the 1320 many times sine 1997. I know how important weight is to drag racing. Not just in ET and MPH but also in terms of stress on the driveline. When you start adding a lot of power and a big stall converter, the lighter the car is, the easier it is on the said drivetrain. Who wants to go to the dragstrip and break everytime?

To get this heavy of a car to run the time I want, I will have to run BIG power, which in turn may leave me broke at the track more often than less power, less weight would. As an example my 96 TA would run consistent 11.4`s pulling the front wheels off the ground w/ only 400rwhp and a stock toothpick 10 bolt w/ a TA girdle. I made over 400 passes in that car, the only thing I broke was a zexel torsen once and was still able to drive home. Why? Because it only weighed 3405 w/ me in it. It had carpet, a/c, stereo ect.. but it did have lightweight suspension, lightweight carpet, no back seats, stock fronts seats, no spare or bumper supports. But to walk up to it it looked stock. This car was no stripped shell.

So for me GM hit me with a car that is way too heavy IMHO, and to rub salt into the wound they didn`t even give me the 422 hp LS3 in the auto, left me w/ solid valves and a 6k rev line (not cam friendly)....

So, I guess you can at least understand my consternation at what is the final product.In its defense, it is beautiful to me and well designed and thought out. Perhaps, Overdesinged and overengineered such as many german cars are. I know it is a solid car, and is built very well, and will most likely outperform the competition by a slight amount, but does not serve "my" plans very well. I may still buy one, but, I am greatly disapointed, as are many others who remain silent in the enthusiast camp. For the average Joe it will be a great seller, that I have no doubt. Chevy has built a very nice car. It will do well, so long as its priced competitively.

Hopefully you understand, and won`t take this as bashing. I don`t want to bash the car, I just wish to convey my personal disapointment.

 

I agree. There has been some constructive criticism, and there have been some good posts where people describe what they do and don't like.

But there has also been a lot of picking apart words, and pejorative characterization of others' points of view. It's an easy trap to fall into -- trying to reinforce one's point by taking a shot at another poster's point -- often along with selective parsing of the previous post or subtle mis-characterization. I won't claim that I've never done that (it is an easy trap to fall into), but people should try to avoid it. It often helps to wait a few hours before responding