Well, of course I agree............

 

me too

 

Through this and other discussions, I've learned. It's actually pretty simple. For one, they really don't care how heavy it is relative to other similar cars on the market.

They're complaining that GM didn't approve the smallest/lightest possible platform that could take four seats and a V8, so that Camaro could use that. Then they wanted the designed optimized for light weight in the way the Corvette was. They believe that the costs of this endeavor would have been justified. They also believe that the Camaro would have had much greater appeal if this had been done.

By complaining about this vociferously now, they think that GM is more likely to make the next one according to the above formula.

Note that there are also those who wanted it to be lighter but aren't second guessing.

Indeed. It looks like a great car.

 

The problem with the name 'Chevelle' is that it was last used over 30 years ago.
I don't think 'tossable' has been used to describe the Camaro since the original 302 Z/28. During the 90s and 00s, the popular press has referred to them as muscle cars more often than pony cars (a term which I see used only to evoke historical tones).

We're on the real issue now, and that is good. It's not really about the car itself, it's about what you wanted Camaro to be.
I think what you wanted was for it to move closer to an M3 in spirit, when it never really was one (again the closest would have been the original Z/28).

For what it's worth, I'd prefer a tidier package, but I still appreciate this car. But then I didn't have any problem with 4 door Chargers (as long as they're RWD) or Holden GTOs. I would have been just as happy for this new car to be called Chevelle SS, too, however (I don't care what you call me -- just don't call me late to dinner! ).

How do you think it would have affected sales, given the name recognition of 'Camaro' and the fact that it's been over 30 years since a Chevelle was sold?

By the way, I wouldn't be too worried about magazine road test comparisons. If the 4189 pound Challenger SRT8 can beat the Mustang Bullitt in a C&D comparison, I don't think the Camaro SS will have any problem. Bring on the 2010 Mustang!

 

I don't know if I'd call the Chevelle a Touring GT car. That would inflame far too many Ferrari, Maseratti and Jaguar owners.

I'll meet you halfway and call it a Muscle car. If we are going to call the Mustang a pony car and the Challenger a muscle car then the Camaro slots in between them.

I don't think we need a "name" debate like the GTO had because this car is still a Camaro in all sense of the word. It's not like Camaros were always known for lightweight handling. They are affordable performance 2+2 coupes with more emphasis on straight line acceleration over handling. Sure the first gen Z/28 and the last Gen SS's were capable sporting cars in their time but let's not alter our memories to think Camaros have been some kind of road racing street car. I don’t know of anyone and you mentioned your friend too in a post back that looks at a Camaro or Firebird and says super handling car. All the praise for the Camaro over the years has been for straight line performance and big power. Sure we know that the Camaro is an accomplished road racing history and is able to take the turns but that’s not what it’s known for.
You want to talk perception and reality that’s it. So what has changed? I still think Scott has a point that this car will be “toss- able” and sporting as it’s always been.

I think you're into the autocross so was your '96 Z out of the showroom ready to tear it up with Miata's and RX7's?

 

I thought my 3rd gen was plenty tossable right off the showroom floor and my 4th gen only slightly less so. *shrug*

Well, yeah. I think that's true for most anyone who has a criticism regarding the car.
I guess a torturous interpretation of my posts could lead someone to that conclusion but no. I wanted a Camaro Z06. A modern day Z28. Don't really care about the comfort features or rear seat room the M3 has.

Honestly, I think with the right sheetmetal GM would have a runaway hit on their hands. Look at the Challenger. Styling was pretty much the only major complaint with the GTO right? Chevelle has tons of name recognition as well.

I am. There's that perception becomes reality thing again.

Well neither would I but you obviously get my point.

Wasn't trying to start one.

Now right there, I've got to strongly disagree. I have so many people come up to me in disbelief that "a straight line only" car can turn like mine does. Invariably they turn out to be completely clueless to what a Camaro really is.

Camaro was always about handling first and straight line performance second (at least since the last of big block cars went away). The fact it could be adept at both gives people the wrong idea I think.

What was the intent of the LT-1 cars and WS6 Trans-Ams in the '70s? 1/4 mile performance? Why the panhard rod / three link setup in the rear since '82? That's not the preferred equipment for drag racing. Surely those biggish front bars won't help anyone in the 1/4 mile. How 'bout the tiny but relatively lightweight rear ends? Biggish tires front and rear? There's the 1LE. Where was the drag pack option? Get my point?

I cannot disagree more. That's not what my friends think. It's not how my family feels. That's not what my peers think. It's not what my wife believes. Quite frankly, the only people I encounter who feel that way are ignorant of what these cars were designed to do and have always done well.

My personal experience says that is unlikely but as I've said in other posts, we will see.

Uh, no. Apples to oranges. They're in much higher classes.

Besides, what is your point? Have I/we asked for a car that can beat those little cars through the cones? No. I'd be ecstatic if this new car weighed 3500 lbs and would probably overlook that interior and buy one in a heartbeat. I'm not looking for a tiny 2800 lb car. I just want a tidy 3500 lb Camaro. I really don't think that sets the bar too high, do you?

On the topic of unreasonable expectations, I'll add that it has been others here who have said this car will "embarrass far lighter cars with it's handling". We'll see.

 

Hmmm. I disagree completely.

Dick Gulstrand called the '82 Z/28 the American Ferrari.

http://www.thirdgen.org/hotrod-shoot...-prep-july1982

Car and Driver called the '84 Z/28 the Best Handling Car in America:

http://www.thirdgen.org/besthandling...driver-may1984

And later that year C&D called the Z/28 the best handling car - period.

http://www.thirdgen.org/besthandling...driver-oct1984


Chevrolet seemed to want to perpetuate the image that a Camaro could turn:

http://www.thirdgen.org/newdesign/br...similarity.jpg


I could post another hundred links like that as well....but you get the point.

 

*shrug* is right. I guess it depends on what you mean by "tossable". I've driven an RX8 and a Mini, and I would describe them both as "tossable", but your definition is a good as mine. You may find the new one tossable too, then, once you get a chance to try it.


I think we agree on what I was trying to say. I would have said a Camaro Z06 is actually close to an M3, except the M3 has four seats. But let's forget about that, and use Camaro Z06.

I know you said you don't want a Corvette, but if really sounds like you want a Corvette, except with cramped back seats. I'm a little mystified, but we're clearly into the subjective realm here, so I'll just accept that.

Right. I think it'll do fine.

 

Charlie, the Camaro was hundreds of pounds heavier than the cars it was put up against. It was a full 560 pounds heavier than the Porsche 944, 20% heavier.

I think you just made Scott's point!

Tell us again why you're so convinced that weight will be a problem for the new one when it seemingly did just fine with extra weight back then?

In 1984, the Camaro was the heaviest car of all six, a full 200 pounds heavier than the next lightest, and 860 pounds heavier than the lightest. Yet, it had the best handling.

 

Before I start I wasn't looking to get into a "pick the post" apart game but there are some inconsistancies here.

Ok here we agree. I said the Camaro is better known as a "straight line" car to the public. Yes you and I know otherwise that it's an accomplished handling car but not the general public.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this. The Camaro is far better known on the drag stip than it is on the road course. Again I'm not saying the car isn't capable of both but again to Joe Public they are more likely to see the Camaro as a straight line car first. Hense the "disbelief" you mentioned above.

GM made special editions for road racing as standard V8 F-bodies are better at going fast in a straight line. If the F-body was a handling first car as you say then why need the Z/28, 1LE or WS6? Why upgrade the car with suspension options if it was already great at handling?
A lot of what you mentioned was done because the F-body must be a sporting coupe and it lives in the real world.

This is back to perception. I have no doubt that what your family and friends, peers and wife believe the Camaro/F-body can handle. I believe and know it can too. Obviously this is a different group then you stated in the beginning that were in "disbelief" at your cars handling. I say and hope you agree this is only because they expected and perceived your car or any F-body as a better "straight line" car.


I don't claim to know much about auto x but if you mean the RX7 and Miata are in a higher and more difficult class then the F-body I think this further proves the F-body is much better at drag racing than auto x. Your car could easily embarrass both of them on a drag strip in stock trim.

My point is first that the Camaro is a better car at the drag strip than it is on the road course although it can do both. That's the history and the future as I don't see the 5th Gen being any different. The Camaro is an affordable 2+2 performance coupe with sporty handling for its class. Sure there are cases when it challenges the Corvette but usually the Vette is a better handling machine.
You seem to be asking for a 3500lb Camaro that handles better than you think this one might. You are into auto x and thus place a higher value on handling than say I would on power/straight line. So this car as you precieve it won't fit your expectations and I think you feel that it has strayed further from what you like than the 4th Gen. I'm not saying I'm excited about 3900 lbs but I'm not expecting or looking for a brand new car to go Auto X racing with.
But as a car to sell to the masses I don't think GM made many mistakes on the 5th Gen.
I'm one of those guys who uses all of the clubs in the bag when playing a round of golf. If I wanted to go Auto X racing I'd buy a used Miata and do what it takes to make it competitive. For drag racing I'd buy a Foxbody Mustang and build it up. I'll buy a street car to be a street car and that's what I expect for the 5th Gen Camaro.

 

The point is those articles show that the Camaro does handle and I don't disagree with that. But ask 10 people on the street if the Camaro is more at home at a drag strip or road course.
Then ask them if they know 1/4 mile times or skid pad results? Wonder what we'd hear....
When the Camaro and Mustang square off it's usually on the strip for a 1/4 mile or 0-60 street-light style. Sure they have battled on the road course but to Mr. Public that's not what they are known for.
Besides magazines are in the business to sell copies and if you ran a story that perpetuated the Camaro as a drag car people would and say they already knew that. They have to print a story about something the average public didn't know, a Camaro that handles.

 

Well, hold on there a minute....

First, the point of that post was to dispel 99SilverSS's assertion that the Camaro was never about handling, so why should we expect that now? And unless someone has anything to add, I think these few links demonstrate Camaro's historical focus on handling pretty effectively.

Secondly, the Z/28 was being compared to all manner of cars there, all sizes and configurations. All were 4 cylinders, (FWD, RWD front engine, RWD rear engine), except for the V8 Corvette. It wasn't comparing ponycars to ponycars, (except for the turbo, I4, Mustang SVO I suppose). Are you saying that the new Camaro will be more nimble than a Miata, Mini Cooper S or S2000?

Thirdly, I'd doubt that the Z/28 would have taken down the 944 had it weighed as much as an '84 Caprice or Olds 88 - which is really the analogy here - rather than exactly 200 pounds more than the Corvette, (which BTW, also outweighed the remainder of the group).

What it shows me is, that the classic ponycar formula - RWD, good balance, front mounted V8, reasonable weight, is the formula that works for me and also worked for C&D.

 

I have loved three cars of the many I have owned over the years.
1969 Camaro
1994 Camaro Z28
2004 GTO
I honestly have no idea what any of these cars weighed. To me it is about the car not just the numbers.

 

There are no inconsistencies. The car has gotten handling / road race oriented packages because that is what it is meant to do. By your logic, Corvette got the Z06 package because it is a drag race first car. That's obviously not the case.

You say the car has to live in the real world but that doesn't really answer my question as to why the car was not equipped to be a drag car if it was intended to be just that.

The general public believes they are drag cars because they know many more people who have drag raced them successfully than people who have road raced them successfully. Ignorance doesn't support the assumption. Obviously there are more drag racers and street racers out there than road racers. Obviously there are more drag strips and stop lights than road courses. Like I said, the unititiated have gotten the wrong idea over the years because the car can be successful doing either one.

Yes, the groups I mentioned are different. One knows what the car is for. One does not. I'll let you decide which is which.

Cars like the Miata are classed much differently in autocross than road racing. In autocross, the Camaro is in a lower class. The same is NOT true in road racing. This is simply the result of the differences in the competition. And no, a drag race with an RX7 in my car would be a driver's race. I would not embarrass that car. (I'm talking about the turbo model here)

Like you said, we'll have to agree to disagree I guess. Your mind is obviously made up. I'll leave you with this though.... I don't know what you have ever done with your car. I don't know if you have drag raced it, autocrossed it or run it at a road course... but take it from someone who has done all that... the Camaro is least at home at the dragstrip.

Yes, on this we are in complete agreement. And FWIW, I have always enjoyed the curves more than the straights. Even as a young kid, I enjoyed watching road racing over anything else on TV. My uncle (1972 454 SS Chevelle) and Dad (1968 327 Chevelle) could never understand it.

However, I will freely admit that in person, nothing and I mean nothing can hold a candle to the show that the NHRA puts on. Not NASCAR, not the IRL, not dirt racing. I've attended them all but nothing comes close to the NHRA. So don't think I'm an anti drag racing snob.

 

The test was about the best handling car, not the most nimble. To me, there is a difference.

Why not. For one, the 944, if it still existed, would likely have some sort of V6 (maybe the same VW 3.6 that's in the Cayenne) and weigh around 3200 pounds. Add 20%, and you have the new Camaro.

It also shows me that one sporty car can weigh 35% more than another sporty car (Fiero) and 20% more than another with an excellent reputation for handling (944) and still win a handling comparison.

If I tried to tell you that of six sporty/sports cars weighing 2580, 2820, 2840, 3100, 3220, and 3380/3420 (only the 2840 is FWD), the one weighing 3380/3420 would be the best handler, you'll have to say, "I believe that".

Now, if I tell you that of five cars sporty cars weighing 3300, 3500, 3580, 3700, and 3860, the one weighing 3860 will be the best handler, you at least won't be able to dismiss that out of hand (well you can, but it won't be credible). You'd at least have to drive them (preferably) or read about them (if you can't find someone to throw you the keys to a 350Z, Mustang GT, 335i, G37, and Camaro SS).