Exactly. The wheels are set in motion. There is nothing GM can do (short of cancelling/postponing the 5G altogether) that can change things right now. Let's wait and see if 5G is a winner before we offer the constructive criticism because atm, almost nothing we say is constructive to the car's impending arrival.

 

I did go back and after reading, everybody and their mom thought an LS3 was going in there. I was one of maybe two people who thought the L76 was going in there instead. AFM was thrown around as common knowledge, what nobody expected was the L99 name. This isn't a personal attack but I really feel your quote failed to live up to it's expectations. When that quote came out I thought they were going direct injection or turbo, but it fell in line to what everyone else was already saying.

 

well....maybe I'm misunderstanding you......not sure.

But you talk about the 99% that aren't card carrying members -- and my point is that most of those people aren't concerned about weight...in fact, it could be argued that -with exception of fuel economy.....they WANT a substantial feel to the car. (we DO talk to a LOT of people ....)

The weight issue tends to be from a small percentage of enthusiasts.....and our internal people -- for two different reasons. The enthusiast wants a 'tossable' car -- our internals have a very GOOD reason to be concerned with weight -- and it's called CAFE.

 

I still don't know how these guys can expect the Camaro to be substantially lighter than every other car in class and be affordable, safe etc. I think you are correct, even among enthusists most concentrate on the overall performance of the car. GM wants to sell 100,000 peryear and it will easily. I am sold already.

Thanks to the entire GM team for doing such a fantastic job of building a world class car that most of us can afford and still send our kids to college.

 

EXACTLY where I am at. Well said, thanks!

 

Ah, I see now. We're sort of talking about different aspects of the same thing.

My point was more about perception and how it might affect the buying decisions of the "non-faithful".

I have very often heard the sneers of competitors when referring to those "big heavy cars you guys drive". Of course they're ignorant of the fact that 3rd gen race weights are in the 3100 lb range and 4th gens are in the 3300 lb range. These people are very aware of its performance capabilities, yet still won't take the car seriously and then are shocked when they find out that the cars really aren't the pigs they're thought to be.

I just had another conversation like this a few weeks ago. Some fellow pony car drivers and I were sitting around between heats discussing the new Camaro (I'm sorry to say that there was universal disgust regarding the weight). Another competitor, a GM guy no less, overheard our conversation in the timing trailer and wondered what the big deal was. He asked, "Didn't they always weigh that much?" Evidently despite owning several GM products, he never gave much thought to Camaro because of the perception of bulk he associated with those cars.

I bring up Corvette because it repeatedly draws respect from unlikely sources due to its light weight in comparison to its peers. It seems the unititiated just can't get over how this big ol' solid car can weigh as little as it does. Of course it also garners acclaim for its performance but that has never really been a problem with the car, much like Camaro.

Will people who are outside of the slam dunk fan base and have no first hand knowledge of any Camaro give the new car a chance if it has the reputation of being heavy?

Unfair or not, deserved or not... perception is reality to many people.


Also, I think my point about the reaction from the Corvette guys being much more severe than the reaction here was legit. They get VERY fired up and passionate about the smallest things. Imagine if they were told their car gained 500 lbs.

 

I guess my question to that is, what constitutes a "substantial" feel? Does substantial have to mean more weight? Can't a car have a "substantial" feel in that it is well put together, tight and rattle free, without a lot of flab? So, is the poll of these people who talk about a "substantial" feel just meant to validate the Camaro's weight or was Camaro purposely designed to weigh as much as it does (I find this highly, highly unlikely).

A C5/C6 feels far more "substantial" than the previous generations yet retains a low curb weight. I think THAT'S what people mean when they say "substantial" feel. My personal opinion is that if they simply want a big, heavy coupe then Camaro as a brand does not fit that bill.

 

I think that sums everything up.

Compared to the F4, everything has indicated that the car HAD TO grow up from the "piece of plastic with a monster motor" to a more sophisticated, less enthusiast-focused car.

Not that we've been neglected as enthusiasts, just that the bullseye has moved a bit. The laser-like "make it FASTER" focus had to shift to increase the car's market.

I think one very important thing that is going to come out of the new generation is that the car will no longer be the target of ridicule in the automotive press for the admittedly somewhat spotty aspects of the older ones... UNLESS, of course, it goes a decade or two without a real redesign, like they have tended to do in the past.

Well, let me rephrase that...

Those douchecannons might still take potshots at it... just because they're ignorant douchecannons... but this time, they aren't going to be deserved, and can be laid bare for the biased nonsense they are.

We can expect a solid, liveable, comfortable, well-packaged, tight car here with good performance. More of a Touring GT than a cheapie, old-tech quarter-mile and road course bullet.




*

 

V6 Camaro will weigh 3750 and the V8 will weigh about 100 lbs more?

The LS1 weighed less than 100 lbs more for the V8 over the V6.

New Nissan GTR weighs 3836 lbs (yes it has a bit more hp).

It ran the Nurburgring in what? 7:38?

Weight is not going to be an issue.

Imagine what a 500+ hp Z28 would run at the 'ring.

 

Iron block V6 vs. aluminum block V8.

Iron blocks are pretty much categorically going the way of the dinosaur.



Negative, Ghostrider.

The "fudge-o-rama" lie-fest that resulted in that run has been covered 6 ways to Sunday.

 

Well, the GTR is also AWD, so it isn't as cut-and-dry of a handling comparison to the Camaro.

 

I think it matters to a large portion of your enthusiast base, yes. I'm not going to be geeked up to spend another $30,000+ to get the same performance as my paid-for 4th Gen. Styling and creature comfort is nice, but it isn't about to get me to make that kind of investment if it falls short of what I consider to be basic performance expectations for a car 8 years newer. Personally speaking of course.

 

I think you've gotten it. When you couple this with having to use Zeta for the best business case available at the time just to get the Camaro back all the pieces come together. It's a heavier Camaro than anyone wanted but it's no doubt full of content and a far better competitor in the marketplace than it was when it left production.
Call it a Touring GT if you want but I still expect high 12's at 110 out of the box. It still has a monster motor!

 

That right there, what the car is named, IMO is why we have any outcry over the weight.

If the car was named... ohhh let's say Chevelle... and had the appropriate sheetmetal, would anybody have a problem with the weight?

I know I wouldn't and I've been screaming about weight for a long time. Those cars aren't supposed to be tossable pony cars. They're brutes. They're muscle cars.

Honestly, the new car is closer to the spirit of a Chevelle (big, solid, well appointed, comfortable car with a monster under the hood) than it is to the spirit of Camaro. Because it carries the Camaro name it has to live up to the standard of its forebearers.

I feel it would be far more effective at carrying that burden if it was named Chevelle. We simply wouldn't be having these debates because it would be more true to the standard associated with its name.

 

Exactly!

I guess it all depends on how you define that. My wife's Hemi Durango feels very susbstantial. I simply cannot imagine anyone wanting a Camaro to 'feel' more like that though.

I'd also be interested to learn if all those people looking for this "substantial feel" for the Camaro, are actually serious buyers, or even considering a sporty car.