Good god guys get a grip!!!!
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 356
From: Providence, RI, USA
Current context is that fuel has gone up to the point that people NOTICE what they're paying for fuel now, and that won't change in the near-term future. Also, weight went DOWN from the mid-70's to the mid-80's, and then has marched ever-upward from the early/mid-90s to now. So the last downward trend lasted about 2/3 the length of the currently ENDING upward trend. I expect the trend toward lighter-weight smaller cars will last for a lot longer than one year. This year the downward trend is due to consumers choosing smaller cars that are currently available. 3-5 years from now, there will be cars introduced that are designed with light-weight and increased efficiency as primary design drivers, so the trend will continue downward as new models will actually be lighter-weight than the models they replace, which hasn't happened in a LONG time.
But the fact is, there are plenty of places that could spool up and start producing very quickly here in the USA. For example, the shallow waters off Cali. Oil could be coming from there in just a couple years from go-ahead. And the effect on wildly speculative prices would be IMMEDIATE, as was seen from President Bush's recent termination of the executive order prohibiting drilling.
Well it's not a welterweight econocar, sorry if that disappoints.
If so though - maybe a Camaro was not meant for you anyway?
If you are happier with something lighter, that also has 400 HP, RWD, IRS, and all the other cool stuff the Camaro will offer, well go get yourself one.
What I want is a reasonably small and lightweight performance-oriented rwd/irs 2+2 coupe.
The New Camaro *could* have been that car. Unfortunately, it is now the 2-door version of a very big and heavy sedan.
Enjoy yours, I have zero desire for one.
Last edited by Dan Baldwin; Jul 26, 2008 at 03:19 PM.
Registered User
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 666
From: Stockton, Ca. USA
For me, I am still on the femce about this car and will not make up my mind until I drive one. I like the style, the brakes, the motor, tranny and the IRS, its just the big weight of the car that disapoints me. I dont see why people here have a problem with me saying that about the weight. Its just my opinion and I do not see why I would not be welcome to give my opinion on a message board.
The HP wars are just about ending and we will soon be seeing the weight wars beginning. Ford says they are going to try and reduce the weight of the next Mustang, same with Nissan with the 370Z. If we get a 6th gen Camaro I hope they do the same. Remember the Camaro is suppose to be a performance car, and after owning 5 Camaro's I hope it stays that way.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 356
From: Providence, RI, USA
Anyway, mainly I want to be one of the few "voices in the wilderness" that won't automatically worship any monstrosity that has the name "Camaro" emblazoned on it, and will actually give some constructive criticism.
There was a BETTER way forward, Kappa. My hope is that the powers that be will realize the error of their ways in time to ensure that much lighter weight is a PRIMARY design driver for the 6th-gen (on the outside chance there will even BE a 6th-gen).
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,139
From: Commerce, mi, USA
For me, I am still on the femce about this car and will not make up my mind until I drive one. I like the style, the brakes, the motor, tranny and the IRS, its just the big weight of the car that disapoints me. I dont see why people here have a problem with me saying that about the weight. Its just my opinion and I do not see why I would not be welcome to give my opinion on a message board.
The HP wars are just about ending and we will soon be seeing the weight wars beginning. Ford says they are going to try and reduce the weight of the next Mustang, same with Nissan with the 370Z. If we get a 6th gen Camaro I hope they do the same. Remember the Camaro is suppose to be a performance car, and after owning 5 Camaro's I hope it stays that way.
ALMIGHTY MEMBER
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 2,298
From: Detroit, MI USA
The last thing this thread needs is one more post, but here goes anyway.
Modern cars are heavier for a whole host of reasons. Longer wheelbases, better crash ratings, more equipment, more rigid bodies, complex electrical systems, hosts of airbags, bigger wheels and tires, etc., etc., etc.
Then you get a compounding effect when you add the more powerful engine, which requires a stronger drivetrain, and now that the car's heavier, you need a strong suspension, differential, etc., etc.
I don't think anyone would argue the trend.
You have computer simulation of structure, and more expertise in aluminum and high strength steel. Those help mitigate, but they're not enough to reverse the trend.
So we have a new, modern Camaro, using a chassis designed this decade, and it's heavier than the one based on a chassis designed in the 80s. For one, the 80s chassis doesn't meet modern market requirements, and it would need changes to meet legal requirements. Those changes would make it heavier.
So this all explains why cars are heavier in general and why Chevy couldn't just re-release the F4.
What about making it smaller? If GM had a smaller RWD platform, maybe it could have been used for Camaro. But, would it have had a V8. It seems doubtful to me.
If it were sized to take a V8, how much smaller could it be? Six inches shorter is not going to make a lot of difference in weight -- probably less than 100 pounds.
What about aluminum and carbon fibre? Expensive.
What about longer hours by the engineering team? I would argue that they took off in the neighborhood of 200 pounds already from where they started.
So even if there is an Alpha F6 in 2015, I don't see it being much lighter than the current car, unless the new weight loss religion apparently sweeping the industry (though it's really not clear how much is PR -- talk is cheap, after all) really takes hold. It will increase car prices. It definitely puts a V8 in danger. All speculation, but just take a look at the situation yourselves.
Finally, the Camaro is not heavy compared to similar cars from all over the world. It's quite competitive. Of course, there's the Mustang. I like the Mustang. I don't need refinement. I like my '02 Camaro. But I'm in the minority. Read comparison tests of the Mustang. Words like unrefined and primitive are used. Maybe you don't care. Most of the market does. Refinement adds weight.
I've not driven the new Camaro and I've seen it only at autoshows, but based on what I know about its ancestor (Holden VE), and drives of the G8, I think it will be a great car.
Will it do well? Who knows. The market changed more in the past four months than it had in the previous 20 years. I don't think that 5 inches shorter and 100 pounds lighter would make a difference (1 hwy mpg is in the noise). I don't think 300 pounds lighter is a reasonable 'what if'.
Finally, there's no way to make everyone happy. If GM focused on pleasing only 4th gen buyers, I wouldn't like its chances.
So why not step back and enjoy the new car for what it is. A real new Chevy Camaro. And for people who like the 4th gen better, there are still good ones either in your garage or on the used market.
Modern cars are heavier for a whole host of reasons. Longer wheelbases, better crash ratings, more equipment, more rigid bodies, complex electrical systems, hosts of airbags, bigger wheels and tires, etc., etc., etc.
Then you get a compounding effect when you add the more powerful engine, which requires a stronger drivetrain, and now that the car's heavier, you need a strong suspension, differential, etc., etc.
I don't think anyone would argue the trend.
You have computer simulation of structure, and more expertise in aluminum and high strength steel. Those help mitigate, but they're not enough to reverse the trend.
So we have a new, modern Camaro, using a chassis designed this decade, and it's heavier than the one based on a chassis designed in the 80s. For one, the 80s chassis doesn't meet modern market requirements, and it would need changes to meet legal requirements. Those changes would make it heavier.
So this all explains why cars are heavier in general and why Chevy couldn't just re-release the F4.
What about making it smaller? If GM had a smaller RWD platform, maybe it could have been used for Camaro. But, would it have had a V8. It seems doubtful to me.
If it were sized to take a V8, how much smaller could it be? Six inches shorter is not going to make a lot of difference in weight -- probably less than 100 pounds.
What about aluminum and carbon fibre? Expensive.
What about longer hours by the engineering team? I would argue that they took off in the neighborhood of 200 pounds already from where they started.
So even if there is an Alpha F6 in 2015, I don't see it being much lighter than the current car, unless the new weight loss religion apparently sweeping the industry (though it's really not clear how much is PR -- talk is cheap, after all) really takes hold. It will increase car prices. It definitely puts a V8 in danger. All speculation, but just take a look at the situation yourselves.
Finally, the Camaro is not heavy compared to similar cars from all over the world. It's quite competitive. Of course, there's the Mustang. I like the Mustang. I don't need refinement. I like my '02 Camaro. But I'm in the minority. Read comparison tests of the Mustang. Words like unrefined and primitive are used. Maybe you don't care. Most of the market does. Refinement adds weight.
I've not driven the new Camaro and I've seen it only at autoshows, but based on what I know about its ancestor (Holden VE), and drives of the G8, I think it will be a great car.
Will it do well? Who knows. The market changed more in the past four months than it had in the previous 20 years. I don't think that 5 inches shorter and 100 pounds lighter would make a difference (1 hwy mpg is in the noise). I don't think 300 pounds lighter is a reasonable 'what if'.
Finally, there's no way to make everyone happy. If GM focused on pleasing only 4th gen buyers, I wouldn't like its chances.
So why not step back and enjoy the new car for what it is. A real new Chevy Camaro. And for people who like the 4th gen better, there are still good ones either in your garage or on the used market.
A VERY well thought out and intelligent post!
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,139
From: Commerce, mi, USA
Just here to make my opinion known. At one time I had high hopes for a NEW Camaro, but those were pretty much dashed when it was clear it would be based on Zeta and not Kappa. I came back to get the skinny on the production car specs, and haven't been able to contain my disappointment that earlier estimates of 3600 lb. (which to me is *quite* overweight for a V8 Camaro) actually turned out to have been wildly optimistic. Thoroughly depressing! And of course, misery doesn't love company, it insists on it!
Anyway, mainly I want to be one of the few "voices in the wilderness" that won't automatically worship any monstrosity that has the name "Camaro" emblazoned on it, and will actually give some constructive criticism.
There was a BETTER way forward, Kappa. My hope is that the powers that be will realize the error of their ways in time to ensure that much lighter weight is a PRIMARY design driver for the 6th-gen (on the outside chance there will even BE a 6th-gen).
Anyway, mainly I want to be one of the few "voices in the wilderness" that won't automatically worship any monstrosity that has the name "Camaro" emblazoned on it, and will actually give some constructive criticism.
There was a BETTER way forward, Kappa. My hope is that the powers that be will realize the error of their ways in time to ensure that much lighter weight is a PRIMARY design driver for the 6th-gen (on the outside chance there will even BE a 6th-gen).
The wilderness awaits you... now go grasshopper, and embrace it
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,139
From: Commerce, mi, USA
Current context ... near-term future... weight went DOWN ... then has marched ever-upward ... last downward trend lasted about 2/3 the length of the currently ENDING upward trend. ...This year the downward trend is ... 3-5 years from now ... the trend will continue ... which hasn't happened in a LONG time.
ALMIGHTY MEMBER
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 2,298
From: Detroit, MI USA
I heard this story a long time ago from the SLP Eng Chief Engineer. It killed SLP they couldn't publicize this info. GM put a gag order on it so as to not upset Corvette Nation.
Same track - Milford Proving Grounds. Same driver - John Heinricey. He couldn't believe it, so he ran the course in the opposite direction and backed his times up.
Stock vs stock both cars with OE content only - the SS wore BFG KD's which was an option via SLP second sticker content.
It was a 2000 SS that SLP upfitted with their 1LE package. They brought it to Milford for GM to shake out. SLP was seeking approval from GM to add 1LE to their list of second sticker content. The Z51 times were from a '99 C5.
Same track - Milford Proving Grounds. Same driver - John Heinricey. He couldn't believe it, so he ran the course in the opposite direction and backed his times up.
Stock vs stock both cars with OE content only - the SS wore BFG KD's which was an option via SLP second sticker content.
It was a 2000 SS that SLP upfitted with their 1LE package. They brought it to Milford for GM to shake out. SLP was seeking approval from GM to add 1LE to their list of second sticker content. The Z51 times were from a '99 C5.
Correct --
Let me clarify something -- I'm not saying that the 2010 Camaro can beat a 2010 Z51 Corvette -- and no one knows cuz we're still working on the Camaro.
My point was 1999 Camaro SS/1LE versus 1999 Corvette Z51 -- the 1LE was faster - not only at Milford, but at DPG as well......yet the Camaro was heavier and had a weight distribution disadvantage. (same driver....)
Yes -- weight in and of itself is a disadvantage -- but chassis tuning can be a real advantage.................
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
Second - it's typical for GM to continue these design generations for many years. The third gen fbodies spanned 10 years... and the 4gens, nine years. That puts the shelf life of your grand unsolicited advice way out of the realm of usefulness, even if it DID have a remote chance of helping GM make a better 6gen Camaro.
Registered User
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1
From: L.A.
haha Exactly! This is what it's all about. I'm glad the Camaro is back. Nevermind sitting around, fussing about the "fine details". All b.s. stops when it's time to line'em up! I think the Camaro will show up more than ready.
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,139
From: Commerce, mi, USA
You see, this is the kind of GM cynicism that frankly, is annoying to many fans. The 4gens, despite their relatively crude assembly by today's standards, sold for nine years. I believe the new Camaro will also enjoy a long and successful life. Orphaned architecture? Oh you mean the one that made the G8 a rock-solid GT sedan, which is selling very well and making its current owners bust out in stupid grins? That architecture? And BTW - how do you get your insight into all of GM's product and production plans for their plants, to have basis for such sweeping judgments?
Registered User
Joined: Nov 1998
Posts: 3,252
From: Knoxville, TN
...These weight gripings have been stated repeatedly by the minority who are upset about the issue. The majority, who care far more about value, power, overall performance, styling and features, are exasperated to keep reading buzz-kill about an issue which cannot be changed in this design...
To teach us a lesson?
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 224
From: Lincolnwood IL
(Sadly)I have to side with Z284ever (and others) on this. I look at it as a lost opportunity for GM. The new Camaro is really nice. But it could have been so much more. It could have (should have!) been ahead of the curve on so many levels. Maybe my hopes (expectations?) for the next gen f-Body were too high. All I know is that after waiting for almost a decade I am noot satisfied with what I see. 
I am soo happy the F-Body lives on. But it is not the car for me.
I am soo happy the F-Body lives on. But it is not the car for me.
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,139
From: Commerce, mi, USA
I've no intent to "teach anyone a lesson". But I am a little fed up with the repetitive griping about curb weight here, especially by those who openly profess they have ZERO interest in owning a new Camaro. If I went to a Mustang site and did the reverse, I'd be banned within a few days. Why should those who love the new Camaro, and want to come to this site to discuss and admire it, put up with continuous carping by whiners who don't ever plan to buy one?
