And once again, you're wrong. Once again there are far more dual purpose cars out there than you may think. You can accept that or not. I could throw out SCCA and NASA membership numbers and class entry numbers but that won't really prove anything to you will it?

Fair enough. I'll add that I don't want to subsidize those who have the notion that Camaro should be some sort of affordable Cadillac with every bell and whistle GM can throw at it.

Sure. Absolutely. That's why the ZO6/ZR1 and others have it but it's a matter of cost for more affordable cars. I'd love to have one but adding an aftermarket system runs into a matter of legality and feasibility.

Cost - How much does the dry sump on the ZO6/ZR1 cost? I don't know but I'm sure it's waaaay more than a simple pan.

Legality - Many types of affordable grassroots motorpsorts severely limit what you can do the powertrain for good reason. There's that cost thing again.

Feasibility - Is it even economically feasible to add a dry sump to a street car or would it be cheaper to just replace the engine when it lets go? I don't know but I do know a good baffled pan makes a lot more sense in a street car.

As I said, I'm talking about HPDEs and Time Trials. I'm not talking wheel to wheel racing. You're on track with other cars but you are not racing them.

You do have the time to keep an eye on your stuff if the gauges are nearer to your line of sight than the shifter.

You do have a split second to glance down to see if your oil pressure is where it should be if the gauge is nearer to your line of sight than the shifter. If it's not where it should be but isn't in the it's-already-hurt-range yet then you can adjust your pace or pull off and investigate.

 

I don't care what interior trim level we're looking at in those spy pictures, I don't like much of anything about it at its most basic level. How's that?

 

What we've seen is essentially the done deal.


Just a couple of notes here:


I was under the mistaken impression that maybe only us guys over 40 would find those console gauges unuseable. Well, I was wrong. Apparently, they are unuseable to everyone. But design wants them, because of the notion that people will think they're "cool".

So, you might say, who cares, just don't look at those console gauges. Yeah, okay. But as with everything in life - there is no free lunch. Those console ornaments come at a price. They add cost, weight and complexity to the Camaro. But that's not even the biggest part. The biggest part is that they take up valuable and scarce interior real-estate. Why do you guys think the center stack has that weird pregnant whale hump? It's not because they wanted that. So impress the babes with that "torque gauge," but just know, that stuff like that is compromising the Camaro for the rest of us.


Oh yeah, don't think that an emergency interior redesign isn't a possibility, shortly after Camaro is released either.

 

What about those of us that WANT the console gauges? They could make them OPTIONAL just like they were in 1969. That would make both camps happy. And what about the rear spoiler? Does it REALLY serve a function as a daily driver? Not really, but it sure looks better with it. (to most) And what about stripes? They only add about 10 horse power () But I want them. It's all about style. Sure the console gauges are basically useless. (so's the cigarette lighter in every car I've ever owned since I don't smoke) But they are a heritage nod to the 1st gen, which frankly the whole car is. I just don't get why some people are so against them. Yank them out if they bother you, or maybe like I said they will be optional and they are only in the mule to test them. Who really knows? (except Scott, and he ain't saying)

 

Well then, you my friend, are who they're targeting. Enjoy.

 

oh I WILL enjoy.

 

BDF, I'd like to elaborate on my challenge to your statement that this car (or perhaps affordable GM performance cars in general) is not intended for track duty.

The General seems to disagree...

1) A prominent member of the race and F-body community (and sponsor of this board) switched to racing a Mustang last year. He has won numerous national SCCA SOLO championships in Camaros and didn't get rid of his car but was bored and wanted to try something else.

Shortly after winning two more championships in his Mustang, he received a call from someone at GM in Detroit working on the Camaro. This person wanted to know what it would take to get him (as an owner/competitor not as a sponsorship deal) back to winning in a Camaro. He also wanted to know what it would take to make the Camaro competitive with if not superior to the Mustang.

2) The GM Performance boys were seen at numerous national level SCCA SOLO events last summer tweaking the new ZOK package for the Solstice. They worked intensively with the SCCA to get these components legal for the 2007 SOLO championships as well as the Runoffs. In fact they worked so closely that many of the non-Solstice drivers accused GM of cheating and the SCCA of brokering some backroom sweetheart deal with them.


So it appears to me at least, that GM does in fact feel that some of their cars (other than Corvette) are intended for the track. Even if you don't.

FWIW this is the other part of why I haven't completely lost hope yet.

 

 

Fair enough. I can't argue any of that. As Z284ever said, they are basically console ornaments, and as such, some people might think they are stylish or cool because they are different, or because they are like a 1st gen, etc.

I'd also say that is fair enough, except, i can not believe that the console guages will not be bundled with some other packages that will be desirable, such as a performance package, or up-level interior trim package, etc. In fact, i'd almost be willing to lay money that the guage package will be included with the V8 package outright. Why? When's the last time you saw an 85+ Fbody with a V8 and no guages? Exactly. I think i might have driven a 83 berlinetta V8 one time that only had idiot lights, but that was a long time ago.

As for yanking them out, it might be possible to get the trim piece to cover it from the non-guage equipped cars, so it's theoretically an option. Problem is, based on the design of the interior, i have a hard time seeing anywhere you can really mount a nice guage pod. The center stack area is not flat enough to play with, without a lot of fab anyway, and tacking something on top of the dashpad would be as tacky as just using a hose clamp on the steering column as a mounting ring.

I'm against them because i like having guages that are useful. You yourself admit they are basically not. I can admit that some people might like them for style reason, why then can't you (and the others) just accept that some people crave function over fashion.

This whole for/against console guages argument boils down to that. The people for them are preaching up a storm about "so what if they are not in a great place to see them", and the rest of use keep defending reasons why we like to see them, only to be rebutted with "so what if you can't see them, go buy a dry sump oiling system and fabricate a new dash panel for your race car" or "modern cars never break anyway" and other such irrelevent filibuster.

 

Nope, don't bother. Folks that want a track car can and will get a Vette. Those who want to turn a Camaro INTO a track car can and should get some custom gauges, if they cannot adapt to the simple task of looking downward a little on their dash while driving.
The gauges are clearly useful where they are. It's a shame a vocal minority here has to keep on keeping on with the tirade, but whatever. Sorry you don't like the placement. But quite a lot of the rest of us do, and feel it adds some fun and character to the car. So you will need to accept, that some want a little fashion with their function. Indeed, so what if they are not in the perfect location? They are not primary instruments for driving the car. Also - I agree with christianjax with his point about enhanced oiling - if you actually are driving a car in extreme conditions putting it at risk for oil starvation - you really should be doing something more about it than just peering at a gauge all the time.
Maybe so (but remember FBF's statement about "65%"?). But even if so, have you sat in a production 2010 Camaro, V8 variant, whatever its trim level is called? Have you operated its controls, toggled thru all its display options, and evaluated how well you can see all the displays while driving? Nope. So you really have no clue how well it will all work together. Next
I'm 49, and can read them fine. If you are over 40 and can't read them - maybe you are just a little overdue for your annual eye exam Seriously though... who appointed you to be the "spokesperson for everyone"? You are welcome to be the spokesperson for the sixteen negative respondents to CLEAN's interior poll, if you really want that job though...
As was pointed out - rear spoilers add weight. Stripes and Z28 emblems add weight. Interior trim overlays, cool wheels, hood humps and sculpted doors add weight. All these facets of the new Camaro design are actually ESSENTIAL to its success, IMO. Style is a BIG factor in this car's identity and appeal. Weight of little gauges? Geez... get over it already
Keep on hoping. The rest of us (the majority) are hoping they don't listen to hysteria and try to please every last possible faction posting on the internet about their pet peeves for the car.

 

I have to agree. It should be all or nothing. Meaning, if weight is going to be an issue (as it is for me) than it is not just gauges, it is the power options, the boom box stereo system, the heavy wheels, the insulation, leather, etc. The Center console gauges are fine to me. I don't think I will be looking at them mid corner, and hardly at all while driving.

I agree, an emergency redesign will most likely add cost and stop development of other things. Or if the complaints are loud enough now, it could actually delay the launch if a redesign is done before release. Then we'll have some people on here to ban for life.

 

Oh?

You can?

Lemme see, we see pictures of a virtually completed interior, and are not allowed to even form any opinion it, lest the production version has some additional, stray piece of trim. But you have already determined that those gauges are fully readable to you - from those same pics?

 

Nope. It won't delay the launch. What you see is what we're getting. But I think that GM is cognisant that the interior has not gained universal acceptance. I fact, they're cognisant that maybe this could be a problem for the car.

Remember the Ion's original interior? That one didn't last long.

 

Let's put it this way. I'm as sure I WILL be able to read them, as you are that you won't
The mistake in the Ion was MUCH bigger - speedo in center of dash. A huge mistake in ergnomics, for a primary instrument. As for GM's 'cognizance', I hope and believe they have a good pulse on the vast majority opinion on the car's styling, and can sort that out from the tiny vocal minority who actually want something else but stick around to remind everyone forevermore

 

I hope they go back and take a hard look at what Camaro/Z28 painstakingly evolved into over the last 30 years, and not JUST from its humble begginings.

And don't just listen to a minority here, sensationalizing their numbers, who have taken it upon themselves to carry a flag for the Mule, not realizing all that a Camaro can and should become.
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Heritage styling and Modern function should merge to create a modern work of art!
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And not the other way around...
(Unless you'd like a 1st gen suspension as well?)

They're NOT designing a Saturn here...it's a CAMARO!..