Buying an SS or waiting for Z28?
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
I've thought about that for a while now and also as I was typing my response.
I don't know.
I'll have a better idea once the new car is out and I can kick the tires.
I suspect that the 5th gen will probably make for a nice street car regardless of how well I feel it actually executes being a "Camaro". I have serious doubts as to whether or not it will be able to replace my '96 as a "race" car though. Is being a nice street car enough for me to buy if I know a 6th gen more suitable to my tastes is coming? Right now I just don't know.
The only thing I can say for sure is that I can easily see myself purchasing a smaller, lighter 6th gen regardless of what I do with the 5th gen.
I don't know.
I'll have a better idea once the new car is out and I can kick the tires.
I suspect that the 5th gen will probably make for a nice street car regardless of how well I feel it actually executes being a "Camaro". I have serious doubts as to whether or not it will be able to replace my '96 as a "race" car though. Is being a nice street car enough for me to buy if I know a 6th gen more suitable to my tastes is coming? Right now I just don't know.
The only thing I can say for sure is that I can easily see myself purchasing a smaller, lighter 6th gen regardless of what I do with the 5th gen.
I'm sure I'll end up getting a 5th gen, but certain factors may keep me from having covetous emotions for it.
1) I KNOW it will be abit larger than I had hoped.
2) I KNOW that the interior WILL NOT be a selling point with me.
3) I presume that it will be heavier than I want.
4) I fear that the Z/28 I've been patiently waiting for, will actually be more Chevy GT500, rather than the Z06 of Camaros.
With all that said, I'm confident that the 5th gen will be a fantastic car. The question for me remains though, if it will be an ideal Camaro.
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
I'm grabbing the SS assuming it comes in (as bare-bones as possible) at around 28,000.
Now my next question is an answer to Charlie's question (and perhaps to the Camaro team, as well
):
How much cheaper would it be?
The way I see it, if a V8, lets say L76 for argument's sake, was offered at 25,000 - as opposed to an LS3 SS at ~28-29,000 - it would definitely take sales away from the SS. Because you're not talking about THAT much of a power disparity. Plus, people will see it as more fuel economical, because it has less hp. And we've all seen what the L76 can do in the G8; Put that in a lighter car, and I don't think any of your average buyers would be disappointed with it's performance. I think it would be a no-brainer to buy that one over the SS, unless you're a hardcore enthusiast like oursleves who just can't afford the beast that is the Z28
Now, if this hypothetical lower-powered V8 was only a couple grand cheaper, like 27,000...I think most buyers would opt for the 'SS'. That's would be a hell of a bargain, at least imho it would be.
In my VERY humble opinion, if there's any thought of offering 2 'mainstream' V8 choices; instead they should just cheapen the SS's price a little bit, and only offer that as a V8 below the Z28. At 400 hp, 26mpg (with AFM presumably), and say 27,000 dollars: people will be screaming for it over a Mustang. Then have the DI V6 for about 24,000, and then offer the Turbo DI I4 for 21,000 dollars.
I'm no bean-counter, but that makes the MOST sense to me, looking at the market.
Now my next question is an answer to Charlie's question (and perhaps to the Camaro team, as well
):How much cheaper would it be?
The way I see it, if a V8, lets say L76 for argument's sake, was offered at 25,000 - as opposed to an LS3 SS at ~28-29,000 - it would definitely take sales away from the SS. Because you're not talking about THAT much of a power disparity. Plus, people will see it as more fuel economical, because it has less hp. And we've all seen what the L76 can do in the G8; Put that in a lighter car, and I don't think any of your average buyers would be disappointed with it's performance. I think it would be a no-brainer to buy that one over the SS, unless you're a hardcore enthusiast like oursleves who just can't afford the beast that is the Z28
Now, if this hypothetical lower-powered V8 was only a couple grand cheaper, like 27,000...I think most buyers would opt for the 'SS'. That's would be a hell of a bargain, at least imho it would be.
In my VERY humble opinion, if there's any thought of offering 2 'mainstream' V8 choices; instead they should just cheapen the SS's price a little bit, and only offer that as a V8 below the Z28. At 400 hp, 26mpg (with AFM presumably), and say 27,000 dollars: people will be screaming for it over a Mustang. Then have the DI V6 for about 24,000, and then offer the Turbo DI I4 for 21,000 dollars.
I'm no bean-counter, but that makes the MOST sense to me, looking at the market.
BTW, the SS may pack afew more ponies than some of you think, so there may be headroom for a V8 below it - if it could be marketed properly.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,713
From: The Golden State
Here's another question though, and maybe one which is more relevant to the Camaro Team. If a lower powered and less expensive V8 version of the Camaro were available (either in 6.0L or 6.2L), would that hurt the sales success of the Camaro SS?
That's what Chevy wants to know.
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,209
Riddle me this!? hahahahah
The only thing you guys have heard right now is that GM is looking at an engine down-grade to a turbo 4 and the V6 to make the sales and handle the CAFE issue.
All I'm hearing here is people wanting to go up! hahahaha which is all a big muddle for the time being. I have a G8 GT and was surprised to here that GM is thinking of coupe within 3 years. Not to mention at making it a GXP line with the Corvette LS7 under the hood. Why do you think they are waiting since the sedan platform is on a run already?
The GTO was killed in 2 years...... if sales and specs don't line up for the new Camaro, a demise will be evident. Vehicle runs in the past decade have shorten tremendously for the Makes.
Only well selling vehicles will have any run these days for there are too many barriers!
The only thing you guys have heard right now is that GM is looking at an engine down-grade to a turbo 4 and the V6 to make the sales and handle the CAFE issue.
All I'm hearing here is people wanting to go up! hahahaha which is all a big muddle for the time being. I have a G8 GT and was surprised to here that GM is thinking of coupe within 3 years. Not to mention at making it a GXP line with the Corvette LS7 under the hood. Why do you think they are waiting since the sedan platform is on a run already?
The GTO was killed in 2 years...... if sales and specs don't line up for the new Camaro, a demise will be evident. Vehicle runs in the past decade have shorten tremendously for the Makes.
Only well selling vehicles will have any run these days for there are too many barriers!
The G8 GXP will not be getting an LS7, in coupe or sedan form. The LS7 will be phased out in a year, if I remember correctly.
The GTO wasn't planned to have a long-term run in the first place. It's slow sales could be attributed to somewhat bland styling the first year and the outrageous markups that dealers tacked on them. It wasn't because the GTO was a bad car.
Bob Lutz briefly mentioned the LNF DI turbo 4-cylinder as a possibility for the Camaro, not that GM was seriously considering it.
The V6 Camaro will be the volume seller. For the SS and Z/28 to exist, the V6 must sell well.
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 801
From: New York
A base V8 model does have some powerful backing. But you bring up the big question Dragoneye, how do you market it without gutting Camaro SS sales?
BTW, the SS may pack afew more ponies than some of you think, so there may be headroom for a V8 below it - if it could be marketed properly.
BTW, the SS may pack afew more ponies than some of you think, so there may be headroom for a V8 below it - if it could be marketed properly.
Even if the SS has "A few more poneis"...we're still talking about a cheaper car, that is still better than the Mustang. (It will be. It HAS to be). I think that any sane person will opt for the less expensive V8 if faced with two similarly priced V8 models. I cannot see it making any sense, so like I said, I feel they should just stick with the V6, SS, and Z28. (And I4 if they really need to). An SS for 27-28,000 will KILL the competition in both mad sales numbers, AND performance numbers. We're talking about an SRT8 (and potentially GT-500) killer for 10,000 dollars less. No brainer, anyone?
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 9,705
From: Oakland, California
I DON'T BELIEVE WE WILL SEE MORE THAN ONE V8 IN THE FIRST YEAR. As I see it, we'll get one V8 and it will not have AFM. More than likely based on what we know today, that V8 will be the LS3. Remember gang, this Camaro needs to be profitable to survive. While GM will offer an economy version V6 with ample performance, there is no need to also offer an economy V8. I simply don't see it happening... period.
I'm glad someone agrees with me.
I will not pay gas guzzler tax and I would strongly prefer a car that runs on regular fuel. Plus, 400HP is more than plenty for a daily driver and I expect it to get half-decent mileage too. If there's a gas guzzler tax on the Z28 then the fuel economy is also not high enough for me to consider it as a daily driver. (that last line is exactly the kind of thinking the feds want out of consumers...:: oh well, they got me)
: oh well, they got me)
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 279
From: Minneapolis
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 9,705
From: Oakland, California
Quite frankly I could care less if the names are reversed at this point, provided the ultra Camaro is everything I hope it will be. However I believe that decision has already been made. (We should find out by September.
)
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
I don't think it can be marketed in such a way that the SS will still sell well. You could try to go the fuel economy route...but that would be counter-productive to selling the V6 model. You could go the most bang for the buck, but that would shy sales away from the SS. The bottom line is, if they offer two V8s for under $30,000, more people are going to nab the less expensive one. (The same people who may have opted for an SS in the first place.)
This "GT500 fixation" which GM has, is sort of dictating the line-up. It dictates where the SS will be positioned as well.
Drop the GT500 envy, and the Camaro's lineup becomes more relevant. Allow the SS to be the price attainable volume V8 car, with a friendlier standard powertrain. And let the Z/28 be a Z/28 rather than a GT500 clone.
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,209
Yep, that's the deal. And as you say, the SS is likely to give SRT8 levels of performance. Also, I'm guessing that after being fully optioned, most SS's will have an out the door price of well north of $30K. That leaves alot of open sky between the V6 and SS - both in performance and cost terms. And it really leaves no direct competitor for the Mustang GT and Challenger R/T.
This "GT500 fixation" which GM has, is sort of dictating the line-up. It dictates where the SS will be positioned as well.
Drop the GT500 envy, and the Camaro's lineup becomes more relevant. Allow the SS to be the price attainable volume V8 car, with a friendlier standard powertrain. And let the Z/28 be a Z/28 rather than a GT500 clone.
This "GT500 fixation" which GM has, is sort of dictating the line-up. It dictates where the SS will be positioned as well.
Drop the GT500 envy, and the Camaro's lineup becomes more relevant. Allow the SS to be the price attainable volume V8 car, with a friendlier standard powertrain. And let the Z/28 be a Z/28 rather than a GT500 clone.
I do agree that the GT500 should not be a focal point. There does need to be a model to combat it, but it should be the deciding factor for the rest of the lineup.
Off-topic, the distinction between Z/28 and Z28 - which one is GM going with?
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 9,705
From: Oakland, California