AutoSpies: Source says new Firebird and T/A
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From: Lilburn, GA, USA
Re: AutoSpies: Source says new Firebird and T/A
Originally Posted by Z284ever
But, most of you guys won't be happy until Pontiac is dead, so nevermind.
So if the Firebird name is not on a G6 replacement, then we all want Pontiac to die. Makes sense. I am a little confused as to why you keep saying this. Where does the "Trans-am" name fall in your G6 plan? Are you going to have a fwd Trans-am? If the Firebird name is used for the replacement for the G6, then that means it will also be a 4-door..................
I am curious, why do you think that the Firebird should only appear as a vehicle that is a total departure from what the car actually is? I realize you are trying to think of ideas that are not traditional, but this would be going too far in my opinion.
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Posts: 249
Re: AutoSpies: Source says new Firebird and T/A
No one may like this but I don't think for GM it would ever be smart buisness wise to built 2 cars almost the same again. That is one reason they are losing money to the imports all the time. When you have several divisions in the same company building almost the same thing but with a little different shell on it does not make good buisness since. Firebird never has for along time been anything but a dressed up camaro. Mustang has always done good and is still around because ford never had anything in its own company to compete with it. If GM wants this car to sell and sell well I don't see them watering down the playing field this time.
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From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL
Re: AutoSpies: Source says new Firebird and T/A
Originally Posted by Z284ever
Boy, I think that would cost hundreds of millions to design, manufacture and market. The money, would probably come out of the Camaros hide - and so would most of it's sales.
Alot of people here say the Firebird killed the Camaro because it leeched off it's budget, I don't believe that BS at all. I don't think the Camaro would've survived as long as it did if it didn't have the Firebird at it's side. That being said, I believe these two could coexist much better today as they are working off a much more modern chassis and appeal to masses.
I'm a Camaro guy (even though I own an LS1 Firebird), but I've ALWAYS respected how Pontiac has tried to do the best and go all out with the Firebird/Trans Am.
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From: Chicagoland IL
Re: AutoSpies: Source says new Firebird and T/A
Originally Posted by SNEAKY NEIL
So if the Firebird name is not on a G6 replacement, then we all want Pontiac to die. Makes sense. I am a little confused as to why you keep saying this. Where does the "Trans-am" name fall in your G6 plan? Are you going to have a fwd Trans-am? If the Firebird name is used for the replacement for the G6, then that means it will also be a 4-door..................
I am curious, why do you think that the Firebird should only appear as a vehicle that is a total departure from what the car actually is? I realize you are trying to think of ideas that are not traditional, but this would be going too far in my opinion.
I am curious, why do you think that the Firebird should only appear as a vehicle that is a total departure from what the car actually is? I realize you are trying to think of ideas that are not traditional, but this would be going too far in my opinion.
Trans Am? Trans Am would top out the Firebird line, and be a mean ****, with it's turbocharged, intercooled, DOHC, 3.6 or 3.8 HF V6....maybe with DI. It would be an AWD, six speed, 400+ horsepower terror.
And I don't consider this a total departure for Firebird either. It would essentially be what Firebird has always been....except it would have it's own unique identity, vs being nothing more than a Camaro clone.
Last edited by Z284ever; Feb 3, 2006 at 10:37 AM.
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From: MA
Re: AutoSpies: Source says new Firebird and T/A
There's a reason why autospies is known as autolies from people in the industry, all they do is make up stories with no basis to them, put up embargoed photos and steal photos from people like Hans Lehmann without paying for them
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From: Sarasota FL
Re: AutoSpies: Source says new Firebird and T/A
Charlie,
What's up with the "IF Pontiac survives" theory? I thought it was reasonable to assume at this point that Pontiac was still in the cards, and would get a Cobalt, a G8 and a GTO over the next 2-3 years...is that not reasonable? PM me if its too "inside" to be posted here
What's up with the "IF Pontiac survives" theory? I thought it was reasonable to assume at this point that Pontiac was still in the cards, and would get a Cobalt, a G8 and a GTO over the next 2-3 years...is that not reasonable? PM me if its too "inside" to be posted here
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From: The Golden State
Re: AutoSpies: Source says new Firebird and T/A
It seems that some here simply want the Firebird name to return, and really don't care what it's thrown on as long as it's RWD.
I'm with Charlie on this. There's no purpose in having a new Firebird. Also, like Charlie, I'm a HUGE Firebird fan. Before someone finds a way to send Anthrax through my e-mail, let me explain.
I think Charlie and me (and alot of other people here) cut our automotive teeth on the 70s era Firebirds, which were a completely different car than Camaro despite sharing a basic structure. Different engines, different front & rear ends, different interior atmosphere, different handling, and a different group of buyers. It also sold in numbers high enough to justify it's uniqueness.
When 3rd gen Birds began having identical engines to Camaros, it was a big deal, and Firebirds lost their identity.
As far as the 4th gen Firebirds, at the risk of being flamed, IMO there was no reason for them at all. Why?
* The car's design looked like a study hall version of a Corvette.
* The car's suspension was tuned the same as Camaro's.
* The car sold just a fraction of what Camaro was selling compared to previous years.
* Even though the car sold a fraction of Camaro's numbers, it's budget was far more than Camaro's (count the number of hoods, noses, tail lights, & rear bumpers the 4th gen Bird had, then count Camaro's).
Pontiac had no problem getting their special edition Firebird in 2002, yet Camaro's 35th anniversary model was done belately, and almost forgotten.
The only way I'd support a new Firebird is if it were markedly different than Camaro (at least it's own unique look and personality... much like that photoshopped T/A), and that it didn't take anything away from Camaro's budget. Both are extremely unlikely.
I wouldn't want another "Corvette as a Batmobile" Firebird, and I think putting a G6 nose on the Camaro concept is essentially a waste of time and a drawing down of potential sales (it's far cheaper to sell 120,000 Camaros than 75,000 Camaros and 45,000 Firebirds). As far as the Solstice-Sky comparison, the Sky is going to have a strong impact in Saturn showrooms. Yet (and this is probally gonna kill alot of you), even when Firebird was in the showroom, Pontiac was the number one brand with women, Grand Ams (not Firebirds) pulled potential Mustang buyers, and lately, Pontiac's efforts to move to a more "sophisticated" (but smaller) crowd seems to actually working thanks to the G6 and....gasp..... the GTO.
I know for a fact that Firebird fans are far more rabid than any other GM fan save the SSR (yes, even more than Camaro and Corvette). But the cars they are rabid about are the WS6 Trans Ams and the Firehawks. These cars make up essentially all Firebird sales, and if I'm not mistaken, the breakdown puts the Firebird selling as many V8s as Camaros (despite far lower numbers overall), and I know Firebird buyers are willing to spend bags more money on their cars than Camaro buyers, and that's why I probally give the Firebird a higher chance of returning than Charlie does. If people were willing to pay the equvalent of $45,000 on a turbo T/A in '89, and nearly that much on Firehawks today, they can probally make a pretty decent case.
But, to me and probally alot of other people who remember the low cost F-body who's performance abilities wasn't constrained by a Corvette sitting in the same showroom, and didn't look like any other GM car (Camaro or Corvette), the Firebird actually died in 1982 when the 3rd gen came out, and has been moving further and further away till it not only became a cartoon, but also starved Camaro and it's much needed updates.
I'm with Charlie on this. There's no purpose in having a new Firebird. Also, like Charlie, I'm a HUGE Firebird fan. Before someone finds a way to send Anthrax through my e-mail, let me explain.
I think Charlie and me (and alot of other people here) cut our automotive teeth on the 70s era Firebirds, which were a completely different car than Camaro despite sharing a basic structure. Different engines, different front & rear ends, different interior atmosphere, different handling, and a different group of buyers. It also sold in numbers high enough to justify it's uniqueness.
When 3rd gen Birds began having identical engines to Camaros, it was a big deal, and Firebirds lost their identity.
As far as the 4th gen Firebirds, at the risk of being flamed, IMO there was no reason for them at all. Why?
* The car's design looked like a study hall version of a Corvette.
* The car's suspension was tuned the same as Camaro's.
* The car sold just a fraction of what Camaro was selling compared to previous years.
* Even though the car sold a fraction of Camaro's numbers, it's budget was far more than Camaro's (count the number of hoods, noses, tail lights, & rear bumpers the 4th gen Bird had, then count Camaro's).
Pontiac had no problem getting their special edition Firebird in 2002, yet Camaro's 35th anniversary model was done belately, and almost forgotten.
The only way I'd support a new Firebird is if it were markedly different than Camaro (at least it's own unique look and personality... much like that photoshopped T/A), and that it didn't take anything away from Camaro's budget. Both are extremely unlikely.
I wouldn't want another "Corvette as a Batmobile" Firebird, and I think putting a G6 nose on the Camaro concept is essentially a waste of time and a drawing down of potential sales (it's far cheaper to sell 120,000 Camaros than 75,000 Camaros and 45,000 Firebirds). As far as the Solstice-Sky comparison, the Sky is going to have a strong impact in Saturn showrooms. Yet (and this is probally gonna kill alot of you), even when Firebird was in the showroom, Pontiac was the number one brand with women, Grand Ams (not Firebirds) pulled potential Mustang buyers, and lately, Pontiac's efforts to move to a more "sophisticated" (but smaller) crowd seems to actually working thanks to the G6 and....gasp..... the GTO.
I know for a fact that Firebird fans are far more rabid than any other GM fan save the SSR (yes, even more than Camaro and Corvette). But the cars they are rabid about are the WS6 Trans Ams and the Firehawks. These cars make up essentially all Firebird sales, and if I'm not mistaken, the breakdown puts the Firebird selling as many V8s as Camaros (despite far lower numbers overall), and I know Firebird buyers are willing to spend bags more money on their cars than Camaro buyers, and that's why I probally give the Firebird a higher chance of returning than Charlie does. If people were willing to pay the equvalent of $45,000 on a turbo T/A in '89, and nearly that much on Firehawks today, they can probally make a pretty decent case.
But, to me and probally alot of other people who remember the low cost F-body who's performance abilities wasn't constrained by a Corvette sitting in the same showroom, and didn't look like any other GM car (Camaro or Corvette), the Firebird actually died in 1982 when the 3rd gen came out, and has been moving further and further away till it not only became a cartoon, but also starved Camaro and it's much needed updates.
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
Re: AutoSpies: Source says new Firebird and T/A
Originally Posted by Jason E
Charlie,
What's up with the "IF Pontiac survives" theory? I thought it was reasonable to assume at this point that Pontiac was still in the cards, and would get a Cobalt, a G8 and a GTO over the next 2-3 years...is that not reasonable? PM me if its too "inside" to be posted here
What's up with the "IF Pontiac survives" theory? I thought it was reasonable to assume at this point that Pontiac was still in the cards, and would get a Cobalt, a G8 and a GTO over the next 2-3 years...is that not reasonable? PM me if its too "inside" to be posted here
BTW, I don't think Pontiac will get more than one Zeta....and that's not 100% either.
Last edited by Z284ever; Feb 3, 2006 at 11:49 AM.
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 140
From: Chattanooga, TN
Re: AutoSpies: Source says new Firebird and T/A
Originally Posted by guionM
the Firebird actually died in 1982 when the 3rd gen came out
J/K, I agree with you, but I just thought it was funny and had to point it out. Sorry if I'm the only one who thought that was funny.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 284
From: Van Nuys, Ca.
Re: AutoSpies: Source says new Firebird and T/A
WOW Here we go again. Well I already said half of what needs to be said in this post here a couple of months ago.
Moving on to a few specific points--
Q. The firebird will steal funds and sales from the Camaro.
A. Let me introduce you to the concept of platform sharing. Maybe you have heard of it. It allows manufacturers to offer different products to different buyers without spending billions doing development work for each division seperately. All manufacturers do it because it brings more volume at a lower cost. Why does Infinity need a G35, if Nissan already has the 350Z? Same platform and engine and transmission, different panels and interior bits. Gee that sounds familiar...Even the almighty Corvette shares a platform now (XLR), and I don't hear those guys pissing and moaning about it. Should we kill the G6 (currently the 11th best selling car in america) because its taking precious sales form its stablemate, the Malibu? Please I could cite dozens of eamples of platform sharing, but I'm sure you get the point by now. It would be harder to find one that isn't shared.
Q. But didn't the Firebird really die with the intro of the third gens in '82?
A. Umm, HELL NO. 3rd and 4th ges were no more Camaro clones than 2nd gens. Lets address this more specifically
Same platform-check. No further explanation needed
Exterior styling-check 4th gens Camaros and Birds shared NO BODY PANELS except the roof. And the second gens even shared sideview mirrors
Interior 2nd through 4th shared the same amount of interior parts. Steering wheel, dash, door panels, SEATS, radios and swithgear all were different in the 4th gens.
Rebuttal- "But what about the engine? A Pontiac with a Chebby engine ain't no Pontiac at all!"
A. See platform sharing section. The same is true for powertrains, and everyone does it. For those who haven't noticed, GM doesn't create engines by division anymore, and hasn't for some time. The division resonsible for all engines is called GM POWERTRAIN. Powertrain sharing has been around for ages. As we all now, the 2nd gens shared corporate engines as well. Yes, in addition to the Pontiac 301, 301T, 400, and 455, you could also at various times have gotten a Chevy 305 or Oldmobile 403. And the 3.8liter V6 in both cars has its origins in Buick, no?
Q. Can't they make the Firebird a FWD v6?
A. Sure. Just like they could have made the Camaro a FWD v6. THE CARS HAVE THE EXACT SAME LINEAGE. The Camaro has no more right to its RWD V8 heritage than the Firebird does. They both earned ther stripes fighting side by side for 35 years.
Bob has been quoted as saying the Camaro needs to sell 165,000 units to be viable. I don't think they expect Camaro to do that by itself...
OK thats enough for now. Feel free to return to your regularly scheduled hyperbole and scapegoating of the Firebird
Originally Posted by Hoodshaker
Yes, I want to count. Both cars had the the exact same # of noses/hoods/tail lights/ bumpers with the single exception that the Firebird used a different front/rear bumper for the Trans Ams. The '93-'97 V6 Birds had all red tailights, while V8 cars had black lines in them ('98 up all got the same tail lights). But wait, the Camaro had an export only tail light that cost just as much to design. So the net difference is the '93-'97 and the '98-'02 TA bumpers. Hardly a budget busting life of priviledge for the Bird, in my opinion.
And about those much higher #s the Camaro sold in...From 1997 to 2003 (includes left over 02's) The Camaro sold 182,396 to Firebird's 134,966. That means the Firebird sold 73.9% as many cars with FAR fewer dealers and a higher price. That sounds about right to me. We do know that Chevy is GM's VOLUME brand, right? Does GM have a platform where a Chevy is out sold by one of its' sister cars?
Without those additional 134,966 cars how long would the F body have survived? The next Camaro will have platform mates or it won't exist. Period. If you would rather the car had to make compromises with its 4 door sedan brethren without the additional pontiac sales to help its case, then I don't know what to say, other than 3,650lbs and McPherson struts here we come.
I really don't understand the Firebird hate. The cars both need and help each other. Personally I steer clear of the Z28/SS debate, but rest assured that without Pontiac and SLP taking the risk (in 1992!)and doing a Firehawk and later the WS6, then we would not have seen the return of the SS package.
In the immortal words of my brother Rodney, "can't we all just get along?"
And about those much higher #s the Camaro sold in...From 1997 to 2003 (includes left over 02's) The Camaro sold 182,396 to Firebird's 134,966. That means the Firebird sold 73.9% as many cars with FAR fewer dealers and a higher price. That sounds about right to me. We do know that Chevy is GM's VOLUME brand, right? Does GM have a platform where a Chevy is out sold by one of its' sister cars?
Without those additional 134,966 cars how long would the F body have survived? The next Camaro will have platform mates or it won't exist. Period. If you would rather the car had to make compromises with its 4 door sedan brethren without the additional pontiac sales to help its case, then I don't know what to say, other than 3,650lbs and McPherson struts here we come.
I really don't understand the Firebird hate. The cars both need and help each other. Personally I steer clear of the Z28/SS debate, but rest assured that without Pontiac and SLP taking the risk (in 1992!)and doing a Firehawk and later the WS6, then we would not have seen the return of the SS package.
In the immortal words of my brother Rodney, "can't we all just get along?"
Q. The firebird will steal funds and sales from the Camaro.
A. Let me introduce you to the concept of platform sharing. Maybe you have heard of it. It allows manufacturers to offer different products to different buyers without spending billions doing development work for each division seperately. All manufacturers do it because it brings more volume at a lower cost. Why does Infinity need a G35, if Nissan already has the 350Z? Same platform and engine and transmission, different panels and interior bits. Gee that sounds familiar...Even the almighty Corvette shares a platform now (XLR), and I don't hear those guys pissing and moaning about it. Should we kill the G6 (currently the 11th best selling car in america) because its taking precious sales form its stablemate, the Malibu? Please I could cite dozens of eamples of platform sharing, but I'm sure you get the point by now. It would be harder to find one that isn't shared.
Q. But didn't the Firebird really die with the intro of the third gens in '82?
A. Umm, HELL NO. 3rd and 4th ges were no more Camaro clones than 2nd gens. Lets address this more specifically
Same platform-check. No further explanation needed
Exterior styling-check 4th gens Camaros and Birds shared NO BODY PANELS except the roof. And the second gens even shared sideview mirrors
Interior 2nd through 4th shared the same amount of interior parts. Steering wheel, dash, door panels, SEATS, radios and swithgear all were different in the 4th gens.
Rebuttal- "But what about the engine? A Pontiac with a Chebby engine ain't no Pontiac at all!"
A. See platform sharing section. The same is true for powertrains, and everyone does it. For those who haven't noticed, GM doesn't create engines by division anymore, and hasn't for some time. The division resonsible for all engines is called GM POWERTRAIN. Powertrain sharing has been around for ages. As we all now, the 2nd gens shared corporate engines as well. Yes, in addition to the Pontiac 301, 301T, 400, and 455, you could also at various times have gotten a Chevy 305 or Oldmobile 403. And the 3.8liter V6 in both cars has its origins in Buick, no?
Q. Can't they make the Firebird a FWD v6?
A. Sure. Just like they could have made the Camaro a FWD v6. THE CARS HAVE THE EXACT SAME LINEAGE. The Camaro has no more right to its RWD V8 heritage than the Firebird does. They both earned ther stripes fighting side by side for 35 years.
Bob has been quoted as saying the Camaro needs to sell 165,000 units to be viable. I don't think they expect Camaro to do that by itself...
OK thats enough for now. Feel free to return to your regularly scheduled hyperbole and scapegoating of the Firebird
Last edited by Hoodshaker; Feb 3, 2006 at 04:54 PM.
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 318
Re: AutoSpies: Source says new Firebird and T/A
Originally Posted by Jason E
Charlie,
What's up with the "IF Pontiac survives" theory? I thought it was reasonable to assume at this point that Pontiac was still in the cards, and would get a Cobalt, a G8 and a GTO over the next 2-3 years...is that not reasonable? PM me if its too "inside" to be posted here
What's up with the "IF Pontiac survives" theory? I thought it was reasonable to assume at this point that Pontiac was still in the cards, and would get a Cobalt, a G8 and a GTO over the next 2-3 years...is that not reasonable? PM me if its too "inside" to be posted here
Pontiac just isn't getting any traction.
- G6 production was reduced because of sagging sales.
- GTO sales have never caught on.
- GTO is a rebadge.
- Pontiac will get a Cobalt rebadge.
- Torrent is an Equinox rebadge.
- Their G5 will be a Saturn rebadge.
How long can a company claim to build excitement, before the public catches on to their ruse? What is exciting about a lineup that that is 75% rebadge?
Oh wait a minute, Pontiac is supposed to be the performance division...what exactly in their lineup defines performance?
Pontiac has the Solstice, which is a knockout. But, I don't think its enough to hold the entire division. Pontiac is in trouble, and unlike Saturn which has some great products on deck, Pontiac has nothing.
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,448
From: Irving, TX
Re: AutoSpies: Source says new Firebird and T/A
Originally Posted by pat b
Wasn't there talk that there wouldn't be a Firebird because it would compete too closely with a Camaro? I guess for any company, your plans keep changing with the market.
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Posts: 2,282
Re: AutoSpies: Source says new Firebird and T/A
Originally Posted by Hoodshaker
Yes, I want to count. Both cars had the the exact same # of noses/hoods/tail lights/ bumpers with the single exception that the Firebird used a different front/rear bumper for the Trans Ams. The '93-'97 V6 Birds had all red tailights, while V8 cars had black lines in them ('98 up all got the same tail lights). But wait, the Camaro had an export only tail light that cost just as much to design. So the net difference is the '93-'97 and the '98-'02 TA bumpers. Hardly a budget busting life of priviledge for the Bird, in my opinion.
Yes, I want to count. Both cars had the the exact same # of noses/hoods/tail lights/ bumpers with the single exception that the Firebird used a different front/rear bumper for the Trans Ams. The '93-'97 V6 Birds had all red tailights, while V8 cars had black lines in them ('98 up all got the same tail lights). But wait, the Camaro had an export only tail light that cost just as much to design. So the net difference is the '93-'97 and the '98-'02 TA bumpers. Hardly a budget busting life of priviledge for the Bird, in my opinion.
In the 4th gen:
Camaro 93-97; 4 models - Base, Z28 & in '96, the RS & SS: One hood, front bumper, rear bumper, rear spoiler, two different wheels; hubcaps and salad shooters (painted or chrome), two choices of seat / door panel materials on the same seat / door panel. RS option added G.E. add on kit. One domestic market tailight design.
SLP added: SS option with different hood, rear spoiler & wheels.
Firebird 93 - 97; 5 models: Base V6 & V8 Formula: same as Camaro..albeit V8 cars got a different tailight design.
Trans Am: Different front & rear fascias, different rear spoiler, different seat design, V8 tailights. Different wheels
WS6: Same as TA with yet another hood design.
SLP: Firehawk; Used WS6 hood & I think different wheels.
98-02 Camaro: Two hoods, base and SS, G.E. package continued, RS dropped. Interior options same as previous, cloth or leather. SS brought in house.
98-02 Firebird: Same as before, 3 hoods, two bumper styles, two seat designs, two rear spoiler designs, 3 wheels designs, etc...
I know someone will correct some of my mistakes, but there were differences in the two cars, that the sales numbers did not justify.