the reason why a new Camaro wont happen til 2008 . [Archive]

IZ28

09-07-2002, 04:36 AM

You want numbers and Third Gen information, I give them to you. http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif

Production 82-92

Camaro
1982: 189,747- beats M*****g without needing Firebirds sales
1983: 154,831- beats M*****g without needing Firebirds sales
1984: 261,591- beats M*****g without needing Firebirds sales
1985: 180,018- beats M*****g without needing Firebirds sales
1986: 192,219
1987: 137,760
1988: 96,275
1989: 110,739
1990: 34,896
1991: 100,838- beats M*****g without needing Firebirds sales
1992: 70,007

Firebird
1982: 116,364
1983: 74,884
1984: 128,304
1985: 95,880
1986: 110,465
1987: 88,612
1988: 62,445
1989: 64,409
1990: 20,553
1991: 51,184
1992: 27,569

F-Body Total
1982: 306,111- Beats M*****g
1983: 229,715- Beats M*****g
1984: 389,895- Beats M*****g
1985: 275,898- Beats M*****g
1986: 302,684- Beats M*****g
1987: 226,372- Beats M*****g
1988: 158,720
1989: 175,148
1990: 55,422
1991: 152,022- Beats M*****g
1992: 97,576- Beats M*****g

M*****g Totals
1982: 130,418
1983: 120,873
1984: 141,482
1985: 156,514
1986: 224,410
1987: 159,145
1988: 211,225- F-Body lost
1989: 209,769- F-Body lost
1990: 128,189- F-Body lost
1991: 98,737
1992: 79,280

------------------
Camaro/Chevrolet crazy F-Body lunatic. :)

DaxsZ28

09-07-2002, 10:50 AM

What happened in 1990, less than 35,000 Camaros sold?
Just wondering!

------------------
Dax Anderson, Sr
1993 Z28 6speed stock (http://www.daxsz28.cz28.com/photo3.html) Sold 4/26/02!
1991 S10 4X4 (http://www.daxsz28.cz28.com/photo2.html)
My Page (http://www.daxsz28.cz28.com)

WERM

09-07-2002, 12:24 PM

While we're on the subject of sales, I wonder what the total sales are, Mustang, Camaro, Firebird from 1964 to present... I bet it wouldn't be close considering that they sold a million mustangs before camaro ever came out.

Of course, who cares about sales? As long as the cars make enough money to sustain a profit and a future for themselves... I never understood how claiming sales superiority proved anything to be a better product... by that argument, McDonalds would have the best burgers in the world.

------------------
Never trust anyone with lots of plants.

2001 Mustang Bullitt GT (http://mywebpages.comcast.net/thill294318MI/welcome2.htm)
2000 Jetta M5
1988 C1500 A3

guionM

09-07-2002, 01:12 PM

Originally posted by IZ28:
You want numbers and Third Gen information, I give them to you. http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif

Production 82-92

Camaro
1982: 189,747- beats M*****g without needing Firebirds sales
1983: 154,831- beats M*****g without needing Firebirds sales
1984: 261,591- beats M*****g without needing Firebirds sales
1985: 180,018- beats M*****g without needing Firebirds sales
1986: 192,219
1987: 137,760
1988: 96,275
1989: 110,739
1990: 34,896
1991: 100,838- beats M*****g without needing Firebirds sales
1992: 70,007

Firebird
1982: 116,364
1983: 74,884
1984: 128,304
1985: 95,880
1986: 110,465
1987: 88,612
1988: 62,445
1989: 64,409
1990: 20,553
1991: 51,184
1992: 27,569

F-Body Total
1982: 306,111- Beats M*****g
1983: 229,715- Beats M*****g
1984: 389,895- Beats M*****g
1985: 275,898- Beats M*****g
1986: 302,684- Beats M*****g
1987: 226,372- Beats M*****g
1988: 158,720
1989: 175,148
1990: 55,422
1991: 152,022- Beats M*****g
1992: 97,576- Beats M*****g

M*****g Totals
1982: 130,418
1983: 120,873
1984: 141,482
1985: 156,514
1986: 224,410
1987: 159,145
1988: 211,225- F-Body lost
1989: 209,769- F-Body lost
1990: 128,189- F-Body lost
1991: 98,737
1992: 79,280



From 1979 to 1986 combining F-body sales without combining Mustang & Capri sales is a bit dishonest, don't you think? http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif

IZ28

09-07-2002, 05:30 PM

90 was a half production year for the F-Body causing low sales.

No, I don't think it is at all guion, because its F-BODY vs. M*****G.

guionM

09-07-2002, 09:02 PM

Gotta disagree. Capri was more Mustang than Firebird was Camaro back then. :P

RiceEating5.0

09-07-2002, 11:57 PM

Gotta agree with guionM. How were the 79-86 capri's any different then the 79-86 mustangs? They were allot closer then the camaro/firebird.

RiceEating5.0

09-08-2002, 12:00 AM

Originally posted by jg95z28:
Personally I think we'll see the next Camaro in September 2006. It'll be for the 2007 model year and the 40th Anniversary of the F-body.

At least that would make the most sense.

Let's just say that the camaro comes back in 06/07, can that really be considered it's 40th anniversary? shouldn't it be more like it's 36th?

IZ28

09-08-2002, 01:10 AM

How, 07 will be the 40th Anniversary?? You probably mean because it will be the 36th model of the car and not actually the 40th, correct??

[This message has been edited by IZ28 (edited September 08, 2002).]

CLEAN

09-08-2002, 03:07 AM

Remember there was no 1983 Corvette either, but this is still the 50th Anniversary year.

guionM

09-08-2002, 03:37 PM

Originally posted by WERM:
While we're on the subject of sales, I wonder what the total sales are, Mustang, Camaro, Firebird from 1964 to present... I bet it wouldn't be close considering that they sold a million mustangs before camaro ever came out.



Had too much time on my hands this morning, so here's a partial answer:

*Mustang sold 1,291,544 cars before Camaro came out (Ford made alot of money because it was just a reskinned Falcon).
*Between the years of 1967 (the first year of Camaro) and 1998 Camaro sold 4,734,253 to Mustang's 6,108,240
*Camaro's best year was 1979 (282,571)
*Mustang's best year was 1966 (607,568)
*Camaro outsold Mustang in 1977, 1978,1984,1985, and finally in 1991.
*When Camaro came out (1967) Mustang sales dropped 133,000 units over the previous year.
*1st year of the gen2 Camaro, sales dropped by 10,000 cars. The gen3 increased sales by 63,000, gen 4, you can't honestly say because of the artificially low production of the 93's (39,000), but the 94s sold 49,000 more than the 91's.
*Mustang's 2nd gen dropped sales 41,000, MustangII increased sales by 240,000 cars(!), the fox Mustang increased sales by 177,000, the SN95 upped sales by 9,000. The 99 restyle dropped sales by 44,000 cars, but sales jumped by 90,000 the following year.
*Mustang outsold Camaro by over 2 to one in 1967,1974,1988,1996,1998,1999,2000,2001,2002 (I didn't include 1990 &1993 because those were short production runs for Camaro).
*The margins Camaro outsold Mustang in order of size): 1984(126,000), 1977(65,000), 1982(59,000), 1983(30,000), 1991(3,000).

Ford has about 4000 dealers nationwide, Chevrolet last I heard about 5000. Though I used to do this along with everyone else here, I won't mix Firebird's sales in with Camaro's anymore.

Firebird till the 3rd gen had it's own engines (even a model of the 3rd gen Firebird had it's own engine...the Turbo T/A anniversary edition), the 4th gen has it's own look & interior, and I suspect that Firebird owners appriciate that their cars as different from Camaros and as Pontiacs.

I also have taken the view that it's pretty lame that even though we have about a thousand dealers more than Ford, we have to go over to Pontiac and add them in to make ourselves feel better. That's like bringing your dad to help you beat up someone smaller than you at school.

jg95z28

09-08-2002, 10:34 PM

Yeah and they killed off the Z28 for a while too. However, 2007 will be the 40th Anniversary, regardless of how many model years were actually produced.

ProudPony

09-09-2002, 02:19 PM

guionM, as is often the case, I agree with you on letting one model stand alone for production figures. Fact is, if I am going to buy a car, I will pick only one model to buy. How can I go shop for a black "F-car"? Call up a dealer and ask for that... see what you get. Ask for a Camaro or Mustang... now we're talkin'.

Likewise, if you are going to combine all models of a similar platform... then what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Include the Mercury Capris in on the Mustang tab, and let's play "F-bods vs. FOX-bods". Then you can also include the Fairmonts, Futuras, and a few more "FOX-bodies" that came off the same line... http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif
The Mustang II was actually a Pinto, right? And the Pinto was the same as a Mercury Bobcat. All three from the same line on the same platform so let's put those Pinto/Bobcat figures in the fray too. See my point?
SO where does all that get us? It's pointless.

Originally posted by guionM:
*When Camaro came out (1967) Mustang sales dropped 133,000 units over the previous year.

But what about the impact of the '67 to '73 Cougar numbers in this category too! Remember, the Cougar was introduced in the same year as the Camaro and Firebird, thereby gobbling some of Mustang's sales. Cougar was a "reskinned" Mustang for those years - it was switched to a luxo T-bird platform in '74.

Originally posted by guionM:
Firebird till the 3rd gen had it's own engines (even a model of the 3rd gen Firebird had it's own engine...the Turbo T/A anniversary edition), the 4th gen has it's own look & interior, and I suspect that Firebird owners appriciate that their cars as different from Camaros and as Pontiacs.


BINGO. Every model IS DIFFERENT, even if they are made on the same line. That "difference" is why the buyer chose that model over the "other twin".

Originally posted by guionM:
I also have taken the view that it's pretty lame that even though we have about a thousand dealers more than Ford, we have to go over to Pontiac and add them in to make ourselves feel better. That's like bringing your dad to help you beat up someone smaller than you at school.

5,000 dealerships... WOW! I guess being the #1 car maker has it's perks, eh? Interesting point you made here guionM. Having a 20% higher rate of dispersion through dealers would lead one to think that more cars would be seen and readily available for purchase on GM's side. So based on the sales numbers, do we assume that general preference makes the Mustang buyer "drive farther" or tolerate minor geographical inconvenience to find the car he/she is after? Would really be interesting to see the actual number of repeat model buyers in these categories, huh!

Anyhow, as for the topic of this thread, I do not think for one moment that GM would target a re-entry date for the Camaro based on a potential lull in Mustang sales. My experience has been just the opposite. If the sales remain high, it indicates high interest in that market area, thereby inducing car makers to "jump in while it's hot", not wait for it to cool down. Look how GM did with the utes, SUV, truck markets in the '90s for example. As for the sportscar market, why wouldn't GM get in when everybody else is trying to get in so hard (much less pull-out?!?!) - look at the 350Z, Supra, Cobra, Mach 1, etc. So, no - no Camaro until '07, but due to contracts with CAW, platform design time, PPAP and other testing, and sound marketing - not lame Mustang sales. Just my .02 . http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

guionM

09-09-2002, 03:44 PM

Also Mustang is a higher percentage of a dealer's sales.

As a car dealer, not only do you have a car that sells more than (in this case double and then some) the guys across the street, you also have 20% fewer dealers selling this larger amount. This makes Mustang a even bigger cash cow for them.

There are years Camaro has competed extremely well with Mustang, and occasionally won in sales. Because of that, I've recently come to the opinion that reaching for a separate carline (even owners like to think of Firebird as unique from Camaro) is pretty desparate & sad on our part.

IZ28

09-09-2002, 07:55 PM

I disagree. As I said before the names of the cars we are comparing are Camaro and Firebird against the M*****g. The Camaro and Firebird are 2 cars in the same exact class built on the same chassis and nearly all the same, mostly starting in the Third Gen. Combining both F-Bodies is not cheating, they should be combined if you think about it, but if you want to compare the Camaro alone against the M*****G, not any other car, which is how it should be, its had its wins in sales by itself also. So what if a car is built on the same chassis, if its not in the same class as the M*****g, or called M*****g, I don't count it.

[This message has been edited by IZ28 (edited September 10, 2002).]

guionM

09-09-2002, 08:25 PM

IZ28

09-09-2002, 08:54 PM

I don't think I seem to be getting through here so I think I'll just say no more. :doh: Think your way, I'll think mine. http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by IZ28 (edited September 10, 2002).]

ReznorZ28

09-09-2002, 09:06 PM

IZ28

09-10-2002, 12:17 AM

Actually I will say something else....Exactly. http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif Thanks. http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

Darth Xed

09-10-2002, 09:08 AM

Sorry folks, GuionM is 100% correct.

How can you count Firebird sales as "F-Body Sales", but not count the Capri with Mustang?

The Capri was the SAME THING TO THE MUSTANG AS THE FIREBIRD IS TO THE CAMARO... the 79-86 version that is.

Same thing goes for the Cougar of long ago....

That's like doing a world's census, and counting Men and Women in the US, and only Men in India and then declaring that the US has a higher population! http://web.camaross.com/bb/rolleyes.gif

ProudPony

09-10-2002, 09:30 AM

Originally posted by IZ28:
I disagree. As I said before the names of the cars we are comparing are Camaro and Firebird against the M*****g. The Camaro and Firebird are 2 cars in the same exact class built on the same chassis and nearly all the same, mostly starting in the Third Gen. Combining both F-Bodies is not cheating, they should be combined if you think about it, but if you want to compare the Camaro alone against the M*****G, not any other car, which is how it should be, its had its wins in sales by itself also. So what if a car is built on the same chassis, if its not in the same class as the M*****g, or called M*****g, I don't count it.

[This message has been edited by IZ28 (edited September 10, 2002).]

IZ28,
With all do respect, do you realize that the '79 thru '86 Capri is EXACTLY the same car as a Mustang - save for nosepeice, tailights, and front fenders? There are oodles of car mags with guys who have converted Mustangs to Capris and vice-versa in 4 hours or less. (The "bubble-back" Capri hatches are actually more aerodynamic than the Mustang "flat glass" version - they are bolt-on swaps.) ALL engine/drivetrain components are exactly the same, from the 5.0 to the quarda-link set up. The chassis' were IDENTICAL. Interiors are IDENTICAL. They are off of the exact same line (Rouge River plant). The 5.0 Capri and the 5.0 Mustangs were also manufactured and marketed for the same class. Costs were a wash between them.

Given the circumstances and info above...
How can you think the Mustang/Capri pairing is so different from the Camaro/Firebird pairing?!?!

Likewise, the '67 thru '73 Cougars WERE Mustangs - no other way about it - but they had different tailight panels, front grills, and fenders. EVERYTHING interior was Mustang. Wheels were Mustang (save for hubcap emblems). Doors, floors, rugs, seats - all Mustang. Engine, trannys, and rear ends were all from Mustang.
Cripes - these cars are where I find most of my peices for resto's now that all "Mustangs" have long been stripped.

Again...
How can you think the Mustang/Cougar pairing is so different from the Camaro/Firebird pairing?!?!

Lastly,
The Mustang II. While nobody can even begin to accuse the M-II of being a performance car, it was still a Mustang - and a d@mn profitable one too. It was designed -intentionally- to be built with the Pinto. They shared the same 2.0, 2.3, and 2.8 engines throughout their production. They shared the same rear ends. They shared the same interiors(save for the dash and seating). They shared the same front ends (known throughout the HotRod community for their simple, bullet-proof rack and pinion steering set-ups). They differed most in areas of improved sound deadening, improved springs/sway bars, and the late addition of a 302 for the Mustang in '75. There were obviously some body differences too, like no coupe for the Pinto, and the tailight panels. But the hoods, front fenders, even headlamp bezels could be shared between some models with bolt-on ease. Again, both cars were intentionally built and marketed in like class to the same perspective buyer. Built on the same lines, with the same basic components.

So...
How can you think the Mustang/Pinto pairing is so different from the Camaro/Firebird pairing?!?!

This is not intended to be a flame or anything. I just think maybe you didn't know just how identical those car pairings really were. Except for '64 thru '66, the Mustang has almost always had a "twin" of some kind to help distribute line/tooling costs and appeal to a buyer who wanted something "slightly different" than the Mustang everybody else had.

BTW - There is a dooky-pot full of folks out there that have Cougar Eliminators, XR7's, Capri RS, ASC MacLaren Capris, etc. that would pose both verbal and physical contests to anyone that doesn't think their cars were anything but "performance cars", like the Mustang.

Sidenote:
In it's first year (1967), the Cougar sold over 150,000 units.
It was named MotorTrend "car of the year"
Above the base unit was the XR7, GT-E, XR7-G (Dan Gurney Special), and the bad boy, the Eliminator (of which some had the Boss 302).

For a little liveliness, here's a few pics of Mustang's cousins at work...
Cougar at Sears Point (http://www.thuntek.net/cougars_unlimited/spir01s.jpg)
Team Cougar at MidAmerica (http://www.thuntek.net/cougars_unlimited/tulsa640.jpg)
A Cougar at Steamboat Springs (http://www.thuntek.net/cougars_unlimited/stmbt1s.jpg)
Dan Gurney Special (http://www.cougarclub.org/Cougars101/dgs.shtml)
The 6.5L GT (http://www.cougarclub.org/Cougars101/gt.shtml)
The 429 Cobra Jet Cougar (drop tops?!?!) (http://www.cougarclub.org/Cougars101/429cj.shtml)
The 428 CJ-R models (http://www.cougarclub.org/Cougars101/68r.shtml)
The ultimate Cougar... The Eliminator (http://www.cougarclub.org/Cougars101/elim.shtml)
The ASC MacLaren Capri Coupe (http://www.mercurycapri.com/showroom/specials/86asc2.html)
The ASC/MacLaren Capri Story (http://www.mercurycapri.com/showroom/specials/asc.html)
Lotsa Fox-body Capris (http://www.mercurycapri.com/showroom/foxcapri/index.html)

Sorry for the long ramble. I love pics...
Being from "the other side", I am probably more aware of these Mustang Stablemates than the average guy on this board. Just wanting to share some insight and history.

Also, while we are on the issue of "stablemates"...
I think it would be a mistake to bring back the Camaro without a Firebird, or vice versa. While there are many who love both cars equally, there are also many who prefer one over the other for whatever reason. To offer one without the other WILL alienate some buyers, like it or not. I therefore beleive that the cars should be reintroduced as a pair - like they have been for decades now. Besides, it could only help distribute the costs of tooling, etc, while offering a larger array of appearances and options on a common platform.

To those who did, Thanks for Reading! http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif

[This message has been edited by ProudPony (edited September 10, 2002).]

Z284ever

09-10-2002, 10:39 AM

Proud Pony...great pics!!!!

BTW, while we're on the subject...what scuttlebutt do you hear about a future RWD Cougar?

guionM

09-10-2002, 01:04 PM

Originally posted by ReznorZ28:
I agree with you, we arent kidnapping pontiacs sales, these cars are directly related... they deserve to be counted as one. I mean damn, if you dont agree then what the hell are all you pontiac firebird owners doing here at the "CAMAROZ28.com" site? http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif I'll tell you why, because when you think camaro, you think firebird, and when you think of either one of those, you think of destroying a mustang! http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif I'd elaberate but Im sure you all get my point.



Good debate going on here. I feel you are wrong as can be http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif , but I still enjoy the exchange.

I don't get your point. When I think Camaro, I don't think Firebird. My co-worker bought his Firebird, he surely doesn't think Camaro. That's about standard for all Firebird (and Trans Am) owners I've ever talked to. Firebird owners (and you all can chime in anytime you want) tend to like their cars as unique.

Firebird is identifiable as Firebird by just about anyone from any distance. Yet from more than 50 feet or so most people can't identify a 84 Mustang fron an 84 Capri.

But since the logic of combining Mustang/Capri/Cougar if you combine Camaro/Firebird, let's look at it in this angle:

If you heard Camaro was gone for good & only Firebird came back, how would you feel? Would you simply go over to Pontiac and buy a Firebird feeling they are the same car anyway, so what's the difference?

guionM

09-10-2002, 01:55 PM

P.S., I'm not the only one:

http://members.tripod.com/~Camaro33/camarovsmustang.htm

formula79

09-10-2002, 08:41 PM

I would be intrested to see how combined Mustang and Capri sales compared to the F-body.

Also didn't the Capri only get the 5.0HO for one year?

Here is how I see it...

Second Gen-
Here the Firebird and Camaro were very much different cars, from powertrains to major engine components. Also it was the only generation (In the late 70's part at least) that Firebird sales neared the Camaros's. For this era I think that Mustang vs Firebird vs Camaro would be more acurate than combining the F-cars. As for the Pinto of this era, I highly doubt that many people wen't into dealers looking for Mustangs and ended up with Pintos, and vice-versa.

The Third Gen-

It is fair to compare F-body to Mustang/Capri sales IMO. However since the Capri didn't enjoy all the performance goodies that the Mustang had it was at a severe disadvantage. I seriously doubt that the Capri sold well enough to make a huge difference anyways. However I will be the first to admit I have never seen the numbers.

The Fouth Generation-

Here it is fair the compare the F-body to Mustang because Ford clearly decided to use only one entry into a market where GM had two. Also towards the end of the third gen GM cut a shift at Ste. Therese leavng a limited number of cars that could be made. From 98 on it wasn't a matter whether GM could sell enough Firebirds and Camaro to keep pace with the Mustang. The simple fact is they decided they would cut thier ability to do so and sell a limited number of cars....

Also I have a funny feeling that GM sells alot of Grand Am GT's to people who otherwise would look at a Camaro.

Where Avis uses the Grand Am and Malibu has thier midsized car, Hertz uses the Mustang has thier midsized car. Ford has made teh Mustang appeal to a wider market.

------------------
Branden-Founder- GMInsidenews (http://www.gminsidenews.com) and NewAgeGTO (http://www.NewAgeGTO.com)
1995 Firebird (http://www.gminsidenews.com/me2.htm) White with Red Leather!- 2002 TA exhuast, JVC Head unit, 350 watt amp pushing two 10" subs..
Slow can be sexy

DamianLT1

09-10-2002, 10:16 PM

Until we build a quality Fbody not just engine wise but the whole car we will not see a 5th Gen. Plus Ford doesn't have a Vette to contend with. Fbodies can't be better than a Vette so they are lower quality.

------------------
95 Formula M6, Cags, SLP shifter, Grant SFC,Hooker Catback.

IZ28

09-10-2002, 11:28 PM

Sometimes being TOO technical messes with what makes sense. And thats what I feel is happening with this, but I'm not gonna repost things I've already said.

http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by IZ28 (edited September 11, 2002).]

ProudPony

09-11-2002, 09:48 AM

Originally posted by formula79:
Also didn't the Capri only get the 5.0HO for one year? 

Branden,
The Fox-bodied Capris had every option available to the Mustang - all engines/trannys included. The V8-cars were 4bbl carbed from '79 'til '85, they got a 4bbl-TBI unit in '85 only, and went full EFI w/ roller tappets in '86 - which was the final year for Fox-bodied Capris. Both manual and autos were available. The Fox-body redesign of '87 left Mustang standing alone on it's platform. I speculate that was the first physical signs of Ford's intent to eliminate the Mustang (or sell it to Mazda) and retool the assembly plant for something else (Explorers were in development at that time... hmmmm.)

Anyways, to answer your question, YES - the Capri came with everything from the 2.3 I4, to the 2.3 turbo, to the carbed 5.0HO to the EFI 5.0HO, and many others too.
A few quick examples... (again, I love pics!)
Car and Driver - '82 carbed 5.0HO (http://www.mercurycapri.com/showroom/foxcapri/82rscd0381page2.html).
An '85 5.0 RS carb/TBI car (http://www.mercurycapri.com/showroom/foxcapri/8550.html)
An '86 RS with EFI5.0HO, roller rockers, T5, Hurst, etc. - factory. (http://www.mercurycapri.com/showroom/foxcapri/86rs.html)

Originally posted by formula79:
As for the Pinto of this era, I highly doubt that many people wen't into dealers looking for Mustangs and ended up with Pintos, and vice-versa. 

Well, the Mustang II released in '74 had ONLY choices of a 2.3 I4 or a 2.8 V6 engine. That IS NOT performance - even ads for the car touted them as "economical" and "sporty" - the term "performance" was just not applicable. Therefore it was marketed in line with the Pinto for sales. I think people DID go looking for Mustangs and end up in Pintos and vice versa. If they wanted performance, they bought T/As, Camaros, or Dodges in those years... look at guionM's production figures and you can see how the F-cars had a surge in sales between '74 and '78. They even came out with Mustang II/Pinto models called "MPG" models!
(Check out the first link, that pretty much markets Pinto and Mustang together I think!)

Here's a few links through the time machine to paint the picture for you about how the M-II was received back then...
Pinto and Mustang MPG models go on sale... (http://www.mustangii.org/media/ads-n-articles/MPG.shtml)(click on the running horse at the bottom of the page to index forward through the brochure)
Article from HotRod magazine - Jan '74 (http://www.mustangii.net/articles/duece_is_mild.asp)
MotorTrend - Feb '74 (http://www.mustangii.net/articles/car_of_the_year_part1.asp)
Popular Science - June '73 (http://www.mustangii.net/articles/mustang_shrinks.asp)

While I don't necessarily think it is appropriate to include Pinto production figures in on our little game, I was trying to make a point about including twins' production numbers based solely on claims that they were "made on the same line" or "marketed towards the same crowd". The Mustang II in particular, is largely misunderstood not just by average people, but by car enthusiasts too - Mustang collectors even! I really think the lack of acceptance - even in the Mustang hobby - of the Mustang II is that it flies in the face of the performance-based ponycars we all think of... it is not, nor was it intended to be, a performance car... so it gets "left-out" of drag races, shows, cruises, etc. and never gets the opportunity to make impressions on people like Mach 1s, GTs, etc. did.
OK - 'nuff rambling about the M-IIs.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by formula79:
It is fair to compare F-body to Mustang/Capri sales IMO. However since the Capri didn't enjoy all the performance goodies that the Mustang had it was at a severe disadvantage. I seriously doubt that the Capri sold well enough to make a huge difference anyways...[/QUOTE

Again, it actually did get all the Mustang goodies, plus a little more... you gotta check this one out!
Capri designed to dominate Trans-Am... via Jack Roush (http://home.att.net/~CapriClubChicago/caprihistory.html#Mutantracing)

Branden, I agree with pretty much everything else you said in your post. I was not wanting to isolate your comments for scrutiny, I just wanted to point out a few stigmas about Capris and M-IIs that +90% of car people aren't aware of. Your conceptions of these cars was actually very common - and understandable. It's actually kind of sad that even Ford/Mustang purists don't even know much about these issues - they seem to remember the most popular or best performers and just ignore the rest - despite the fact that these "other" cars really helped the popular ones to even exist (especially financially?!).

We can all learn from these points if we choose to...
(--hints to a Gen V there--)

Peace. http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif

Had to edit a couple links... sorry! I think they all work now. -Proud

[This message has been edited by ProudPony (edited September 11, 2002).]

ProudPony

09-11-2002, 10:49 AM

Originally posted by Z284ever:
Proud Pony...great pics!!!!

BTW, while we're on the subject...what scuttlebutt do you hear about a future RWD Cougar?

Z284ever,
Sorry for the late reply on this. I have a lot going on in life right now... just don't get to the boards often.

The latest rumors - and I emphasize rumors - that I got were at the Grand Nationals in Charlotte on Aug 31. There were several Ford guys around the "Living Legends (http://www.stangnet.com/shows/roadtour.html)" truck that were saying Ford is looking to consolidate several models on the DEW platform like GM is with the Sigma. It will help justify costs and efficiencies greatly. "Several models" were then broken down into the Mustang, a "new" Lincoln LS - or similar type sedan (to replace the continental maybe?), and the Cougar. This would at least make sense in speading out costs, and give the company an entry level, mid-level, and luxury high-end car all off of the same platform - a RWD V8 platform.

I also know that most Cougar Club members love their vintage 289s, 302s, 351s, 428s, and 429s. Even the '80's model Cougar XR7s could have 5.0s. So the responses have leaned towards a RWD V8-capable platform.

I doubt if we will see an SVO Cougar anytime soon, but I think an "upscaled Mustang" type Cougar is getting serious scrutiny right now at Ford. It would also reposition the Cougar beside is original stablemate like back in '67 - I think that would be cool, IMO.
It would be lame to reattach the Cougar to the new T-bird, and besides - I think Ford has tried to clearly separate the Cougar/T-bird ties with the current Cougar offering anyhow.

That's the latest dicussion I was a part of recently - and I restate... that's just talk, nothing written. But fun nonetheless!

Take Care! -Proud

BTW, A Mustang Teaser (http://bradbarnett.net/mustangs/concept/s197/mtconceptmustang.jpg) for you...

johnsocal

09-11-2002, 12:42 PM

I think that Ford would be better off just killing off the whole Mercury brand (like GM has done with OLDs). Mercury is one of those brands that stuck in the middle, its neither a luxury brand nor an entry level brand and Mercury just gets lost in the competition.

I think Ford would be better off keeping the new Mustang affordable and create a seperate car with a entirely different appearance and call it the "Cobra" (not: Mustang-Cobra) to try to compete with the Corvette head-on because a $35,000-$40,000 Mustang-Cobra is just a lame idea.

ReznorZ28

09-11-2002, 01:42 PM

Originally posted by guionM:
Good debate going on here. I feel you are wrong as can be http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif , but I still enjoy the exchange.

I don't get your point. When I think Camaro, I don't think Firebird. My co-worker bought his Firebird, he surely doesn't think Camaro. That's about standard for all Firebird (and Trans Am) owners I've ever talked to. Firebird owners (and you all can chime in anytime you want) tend to like their cars as unique.

I agree with you that the firebird and the camaro are both unique, but they have just as much in common. I mean how can you deny the fact that when you think of one, you dont think of the other? Im not saying that when you look at a firebird you think, damn, thats one sweet camaro-looking car... or vice versa, but I mean its a car that you can appreciate just as much as your own because they share so much of the same internal and external design..

Originally posted by guionM:

If you heard Camaro was gone for good & only Firebird came back, how would you feel? Would you simply go over to Pontiac and buy a Firebird feeling they are the same car anyway, so what's the difference?



I know that if the camaro was gone for good, and a new trans am came out that totally blew me away(and they always do), I would be one of the first in line to get it! Ive always loved both cars, I always thought that the T/A's had the appreance of a more sexy, suave sense of power, as to where the camaro seemed to have a look of more of a raw sense of power.
But if I had my way, I would have a 67Camaro, a 71 Z28 with the RS appearance package(split bumper), and a 2002 T/A with the WS6 package.

but lastly, I saw the pics of the capri's and I cant deny that they look almost exactly like the mustang. But I dont know how much I agree with others about the cougar...
------------------
My 2 Babies:
94 black Z28-5.7 k&n cold air induction, performance MAF,air foil & flowmaster exhast. new pics w/ SS hood & spoiler. Custom hvac&light covers and custom storage bin covers for sale
94 Z28 pics (http://community.webshots.com/user/reznorz28)
86 laser red IrocZ - k&n air filters,full msd setup, flowmasters, modifed MAS & air foil,92 hood, Ground Effects & spoiler
86 Z28 (http://www.boomspeed.com/logan/MVC-194F.JPG)

[This message has been edited by ReznorZ28 (edited September 11, 2002).]

guionM

09-11-2002, 02:59 PM

Originally posted by formula79:
I would be intrested to see how combined Mustang and Capri sales compared to the F-body.

Also didn't the Capri only get the 5.0HO for one year?

Here is how I see it...

Second Gen-
Here the Firebird and Camaro were very much different cars, from powertrains to major engine components. Also it was the only generation (In the late 70's part at least) that Firebird sales neared the Camaros's. For this era I think that Mustang vs Firebird vs Camaro would be more acurate than combining the F-cars. As for the Pinto of this era, I highly doubt that many people wen't into dealers looking for Mustangs and ended up with Pintos, and vice-versa.

The Third Gen-

It is fair to compare F-body to Mustang/Capri sales IMO. However since the Capri didn't enjoy all the performance goodies that the Mustang had it was at a severe disadvantage. I seriously doubt that the Capri sold well enough to make a huge difference anyways. However I will be the first to admit I have never seen the numbers.

The Fouth Generation-

Here it is fair the compare the F-body to Mustang because Ford clearly decided to use only one entry into a market where GM had two. Also towards the end of the third gen GM cut a shift at Ste. Therese leavng a limited number of cars that could be made. From 98 on it wasn't a matter whether GM could sell enough Firebirds and Camaro to keep pace with the Mustang. The simple fact is they decided they would cut thier ability to do so and sell a limited number of cars....

Also I have a funny feeling that GM sells alot of Grand Am GT's to people who otherwise would look at a Camaro.

Where Avis uses the Grand Am and Malibu has thier midsized car, Hertz uses the Mustang has thier midsized car. Ford has made teh Mustang appeal to a wider market.



Capri was identical to Mustang right down to it's option lists including the 5.0, the turbo 4, and every performance & aftermarket item. If Capri somehow was at a disadvantage, so was Firebird. Firebirds also have been outsold by Corvettes for the past few years. If Capris don't make much of a difference in sales, do Firebirds?

GM cutting a shift at Ste. Therese is irrelevent. Towards the end of B body production, GM slowed down the line. Should Roadmasters, Caprices, & SSs be combined so we can say we beat Crown Victoria sales that year? Also irrelevent are references to Mustangs in the rental car business. I rented a few Camaros from National Car rental before I bought my Camaro. Last I heard, they still had them.

The 3rd gen Firebird, believe it or not, not only had a different interior, but also had diffetent sheetmetal (compare the continuing crease from the side window to the rear hatch on the B-pillar to Camaro's which begins just infront of the hatch).

As for the 4th gen, there is NO exterior pieces at all that can also be interchanged between Camaro & Firebird besides the rims & tires. Beyound the gauges and console, same goes there is no surfaces that are common to both cars.

Therefore, anyone who combines both Camaro and Firebird against Mustang instead of separately is doing much the same thing as taking Impala, Regal, and Grand Prix and combining them against a Taurus.

I'll agree with you on Pinto though because they were sold from the same dealer for a completely different market...much like if Chevy actually had made an F based Nomad.

Finally, just looking at GrandAm, Mustang, and Camaro (you didn't say "F-body" when you said that, did you? http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif You also didn't mention the same brand as GranAm Firebird. Inconsistancies??) I'm more inclined to think Pontiac stole far more Mustang sales than the few thousand per month sales of Camaro, and most certainly the roughly 2K per month sales of Firebird, though why we are saying Pontiac GranAm are stealing sales from Chevrolet Camaro is beyound me. http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

guionM

09-11-2002, 03:17 PM

Don't take what I said above as a flame, it's just the way I talk (too much time in the military http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif )

Proudpony, Very good Capri links. I forgot about those racing Capris & the higher top end of those bubblebacks.

Capri is a very misunderstood & forgotten car. IMHO, it was a bit of a mistake for Ford to bring it out as spitting image of a Mustang, because it went for the identical market. Firebird, on the other hand, moved upmarket from Camaro over the years and courted a slightly different buyer than Camaro with a completely different exterior & interior.

I've been stock piling ammo for the next debate (should Barracuda & Challenger sales be combined) so watch out! http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif

FYI, Challengers had longer wheelbases than Barracudas. http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif

ProudPony

09-12-2002, 09:52 AM

Originally posted by guionM:
I'll agree with you on Pinto though because they were sold from the same dealer for a completely different market...much like if Chevy actually had made an F based Nomad.

guionM,
I admit that you suprised me here... Do you think they really marketed Pinto and Mustang separately?

I think people perceive ALL Mustangs (and Camaros too) as "performers" in general becuase they see one on a dragstrip, a kid peels a wheel at a stoplight, or one blows by at 90+mph on the highway sometime. This "stigma", or paradigm, about these cars precludes and post-dates (but does not include) the Mustang II. When was the last time you saw a M-II blow by you doing 90+? When have you seen an M-II peel away from a light? Ever see stock M-IIs at the dragstrip running quick-8 or StreetStock?

Really, those cars were economy cars. Designed and engineered to be that way - and to share many parts with Pinto. The Pinto was the economic entry level car (Camaro-like for f-cars) and the Mustang was the slightly upscale version (Firebird-like for the f-cars).

Like the prior post, I've got oodles of links to old ads from '74 thru '77 touting the Mustang as economic... the word "performance" is almost never seen. And there are many ads in which the Mustang II and Pinto both appear together. I was not of car-buying age back then, but I really think the marketing push was for Mustang II = economy = "upscale luxury Pinto".

Just a few more ad links... look at the number of times "economy" is written... geez!

Hot Rod magazine - Mar '74 (http://www.mustangii.org/media/ads-n-articles/74-3-hr.shtml)
A corporate ad (http://www.mustangii.org/media/ads-n-articles/Boredom0.shtml) that ran in many mags in '74/'75
Mustang II and Pinto in same ad (http://www.mustangii.org/media/ads-n-articles/MPG.shtml)

I find this one most interesting... (it's 5 pages long)
This (http://www.mustangii.net/1974/74_facts2.asp) is an actual Ford memo sent to all dealers and salesmen, telling them how to market the Mustang II. It identifies competitive models and specifies marketing strategies to the salesman. It clearly tells salesmen to tout the economical benefits of the car foremost.

Now granted, they did have the Camaro listed as a competitive model, but they also had a Celica and Beetle in there too. They had the audacity to compare the 2.8 V6 Mustang II Mach 1 against the Camaro LT AND Camaro Z/28! This is so typical of a sales/maketing guy who knows NOTHING about an enthusiasts emotions...
Here was the sales pitch... AND I QUOTE," The Z28 does hold a power advantage with a 350 CID 4V engine and can boast some performance advantages such as a posi-traction rear axle and sport suspension. But so can Mach 1 with its BR70 x 13 RWL steel belted radial ply tires and the precise handling of rack and pinion steering."
OMG!!! So we (Ford) say the Camaro is faster and better performing, but the Mustang has 13" "toy" wheels and rack and pinion steering. PLEASE.

While I readily admit that most of us still associate a natural rivalry between Camaro and Mustang through all years, that rivalry is really unfounded concerning the Mustang II, IMO. It was not a performer IN ANY WAY, it was economical... ONLY. The V8s in the Camaro/Firebirds clobbered the V6 performance-wise, who can contest that?

We enthusiasts just have a hard time breaking the mind-set that Mustang and Camaro were always competitors in the PERFORMANCE MARKET. Knowing the development issues and history behind making M-IIs smaller, adding 300lbs of sound-deadener, killing the V8 options, offering a lame 2.8 V6 as max engine, putting cat-cons on it, etc. - I cannot agree that M-IIs were intended performance market cars.

No flames intended in any way! In fact, I think we are still +99% in agreement about all other things in this thread. I just wanted to try to "expose" some hidden knowledge - or something like that. Doh!

And guionM - you will get no contest from me on your next round of competition! Re the Challenger and Charger R/T's. I am 100% behind you there, too! Javelins? 'Cudas? GTX or GTO or LeMans maybe? LOL!!

Regards,
-Proud

[This message has been edited by ProudPony (edited September 12, 2002).]

Z28Wilson

09-12-2002, 01:13 PM

Thanks for posting those links ProudPony. I had forgotten how anemic Mustang II's styling and powertrains were. http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif Still amazes me that they sold so many.

------------------
Mark

94 Z28, Red, A4, 3:23
Lone Mods--LPE CAI, !Lapeer Dragway.

Best time: 14.658 @ 95.1
with SES light on and Driver off! (First and only time at track)

The F-body will NEVER die.

Z284ever

09-12-2002, 01:55 PM

Originally posted by johnsocal:

because a $35,000-$40,000 Mustang-Cobra is just a lame idea.

Lame or not...they seem to be selling as fast as they can be bolted together. BTW, I know afew people who spent similar money on loaded SS's.

For a number of reasons, I suppose, the days of walking into your local Chevy or Ford dealer....and plunking down your $16-$20K for a V8 RWD performance car are OVER.

Personally....I've come to grips with that...all I want now is my money's worth.

lt1car

09-12-2002, 02:25 PM

test

------------------
99 Pewter Transam. T-tops. Leather. M6 :) Only 3 mods. $150 total. True dual cat back. Whisper lid. Ported Maf. Borrowed ET Steets.
12.8 at 108mph. 1.8 60ft 90 degree Humid day.

Newbie's:Thunder Racing 230/224 111lsa cam, Tit. 918 springs/retainers. Asp pulley. :)

formula79

09-12-2002, 06:50 PM

How many women you think went into a Pontiac dealer to look at a Firebird and ended up with a Grand Am GT coupe. Thats the whole poupuse of a halo car IMO...to lure people in and then sell them what they really need. IMO the Grand Am GT is more a competitor to the Mustang V6 than the V6 Camaro or Firebird. The Grand Am GT looks every bit as aggressive as V6 F-body, plus its almost as fast and has better ergonomics. One thing you all have to realize is that generally if someone is buying a V6 Mustang, they don't know, or car teh difference between FWD and RWD...thus it plays very in the buying equation. Imagine being a dealer and trying to convince some to buy a V6 Firebird when you have a Grand Am GT sitting there....The Grand Am GT looks like a race car to an untrained eye. Ford has nothing like that in thier own dealers showrooms to steal sales. Maybe the Cougar, but that turned out to be the most mismarketed car ever and is dying this year. Also remember GM has a crap load more 2 doors than Ford, which only currently has the 3 door Focus, Mustang, T-bird. The Cougar and ZX2 aren't listed because they are dead after 02..but you get the point. GM on the otherhand has the Cavalier, Sunfire, Alero (dead after this year), Grand Am GT, Grand Prix GTP, Monte Carlo, Corvette, and anything else I may have forgotten. Very seldom is the buyer educated on drivetrains and such, so it is much hard for a GM slaes person to sell 2 door F-bodies then it would be for a Ford dealer to sell a V6 Mustang.

Man what a rant...

Anyways...since everyone cares so much about the Capri...where are the sales numbers?

------------------
Branden-Founder- GMInsidenews (http://www.gminsidenews.com) and NewAgeGTO (http://www.NewAgeGTO.com)
1995 Firebird (http://www.gminsidenews.com/me2.htm) White with Red Leather!- 2002 TA exhuast, JVC Head unit, 350 watt amp pushing two 10" subs..
Slow can be sexy

WERM

09-12-2002, 07:28 PM

Originally posted by formula79:
Also remember GM has a crap load more 2 doors than Ford, which only currently has the 3 door Focus, Mustang, T-bird. The Cougar and ZX2 aren't listed because they are dead after 02..but you get the point. GM on the otherhand has the Cavalier, Sunfire, Alero (dead after this year), Grand Am GT, Grand Prix GTP, Monte Carlo, Corvette, and anything else I may have forgotten. 

The GTP 2-Door is already DEAD. No one in the market for a $20,000 coupe is being sold a Corvette and vice versa. Same w/ the T-Bird.

So your "Crapload" of GM Coupes is really:
Sunfire/Cavalier/Grand Am/Monte Carlo http://web.camaross.com/bb/tongue.gif

For Ford:
Mustang/Focus

I don't think there is a crapload of coupes [/i] combined [i] between ford & GM. Today's low cost domestic coupe market sucks. Only the Focus, Monte Carlo and Grand Am have a chassis w/ roots after the 80's.

------------------
Never trust anyone with lots of plants.

2001 Mustang Bullitt GT (http://mywebpages.comcast.net/thill294318MI/welcome2.htm)
2000 Jetta M5
1988 C1500 A3

formula79

09-12-2002, 10:22 PM

Totally missed my point...

Use 2002 model year..

Take away just Grand Am coupe and Monte Carlo coupe sales so things are even

That would leave GM with the J-Car and F-body and Ford with just the Focus and Mustang.

Now I am guessing that the Monte Carlo and Grand Am coupe sell around 70,000 a year each...very rough estimate..

So you are looking at 140,000 cars that can be sold...now say we go low and only half decide they want another GM Coupe..well that would be 70,000 cars that the F-body or J-car could have...and that's a lowball number. Alot of people who buy coupes buy them because they want a two door...and will have a hard time settling for a 4 door.So if I am in a Ford dealer and want a two door I can have a Focus hatch or a Mustang, no other choices. I am willing to bet alot of people rather than just going to a dealer that has what they want buy a V6 Mustnag because they get talked into it and the heritage.

You go into a GM dealer and want a sporty coupe...well you have all the options I mentioned before, and unless you car a gearhead set on a V8, the V6 F-body generally will comes in behind the Grand Am and Monte Carlo because of ergonomics, space, quality, ect. Also keep in mind the Mustang doesn't hold a space or build quality advantage over the F-body they rate very similar. So then what would explain the huge sales difference between the V6 Mustang and V6 F-Body? GM has at least 2 sporty midsized (Grand Am/Monte Carlo SS) coupes that would be much more desirable to the non-gearhead than a V6 F-Body. Ford on teh other hand if you want something mid-seized and sporty has one option.....Mustang.

Think about it...I am willing to be at least half the people who buy cars would settle for a V6 Mustang "because it's a Mustang", then leave the Ford dealer and look elsewhere. The average consumer is very uneducated.

------------------
Branden-Founder- GMInsidenews (http://www.gminsidenews.com) and NewAgeGTO (http://www.NewAgeGTO.com)
1995 Firebird (http://www.gminsidenews.com/me2.htm) White with Red Leather!- 2002 TA exhuast, JVC Head unit, 350 watt amp pushing two 10" subs..
Slow can be sexy

WERM

09-12-2002, 11:09 PM

Originally posted by formula79:
So then what would explain the huge sales difference between the V6 Mustang and V6 F-Body?


Most of what the Camaro had going for it was an amazing V8 powertrain. Take that away and you get a big heavy car that's a pain in the ass to get in and out of, difficult to see out of and doesn't feel nimble (sure, the handling limits of a camaro are high, but it feels big heavy and ponderous at slow speeds like on a test drive). I can easily see why Mustang V6 sales would be much higher. Why would you make all those compromises in a V6 Camaro for performance's sake and then get the base motor? Doesn't make any sense. A Mustang is easy to live with - just as easy as a Grand Am ...

------------------
Never trust anyone with lots of plants.

2001 Mustang Bullitt GT (http://mywebpages.comcast.net/thill294318MI/welcome2.htm)
2000 Jetta M5
1988 C1500 A3

ProudPony

09-12-2002, 11:38 PM

I gotta add that I agree with Branden about the GP, Grand Am, and even Bonneville in some cases getting some potential Mustang buyers. For a car buyer looking at V6 power in an affordable, easy to live with car, I can easily see why they might go for those Pontiac models.

I also see those same models taking Camaro and Firebird sales in the same fashion... imagine if they were lured onto a lot in hopes of a T/A or Z/28, but just test drove a V6 'bird or V6 'maro. Getting in and out of those two, then in and out of the GP within minutes of each other makes it really stand out.

Werm makes a good point. The same issues we have all heard time and again also made some folks walk away from the f-car - regardless of power choice - and into GPs, Impys, and V6 'tangs.

How we could quantify any of these "lost sales" is beyond me. This has been an interesting turn in conversation though - very thought provoking.

BigDarknFast

09-13-2002, 12:53 AM

Most of what the Camaro had going for it was an amazing V8 powertrain. Take that away and you get a big heavy car that's a pain in the ass to get in and out of, difficult to see out of and doesn't feel nimble (sure, the handling limits of a camaro are high, but it feels big heavy and ponderous at slow speeds like on a test drive). I can easily see why Mustang V6 sales would be much higher. 

I respectfully disagree with a lot of this. There's a lot more to the LS1 FBody to love than the world-class engine. What about how the T-tops provide open-air motoring without the hassles of a convertible? The swoopy, classic muscle car styling? Ergonomic HVAC and stereo controls, including those on the steering wheel? Versatility of a hatchback and folding rear seat? Modern electronics like Passkey, retained accessory power, TCS, ABS, Theftlock?

This hooey about handling... I rented a 2002 V6 Mustang. Its handling was lifeless and numb. Its steering wheel had difficult-to-operate cruise control buttons and nothing else. Its dash pad was free to rattle and squeak. The seating position is indeed higher... this IMHO is a key reason why women buy this car in droves and why the Mustang is selling well... but guess what: not everyone wants that! I like sitting low, like they do in a true race car, and hugging the road and curves.

Slow speeds on a test drive... didn't happen much on my first test drive in 1999! I pushed it hard and the salesman never uttered a peep of protest... he was diggin' it too! http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif Are these cars a little brutish in a parking lot? Yeah... so what? I spend most of my time tearing up freeway ramps and of course - viewing Mustangs through my *restrictive* rear window http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif

------------------
Sunset Orange Met. 2002 Trans Am, DF Lid, FRA, K&N (http://www.mwshowgo67.com/sunsetTransAm/index.htm) | DFGreen 98 GTP, Insulated SLP K&N, !U!Res, 3.5 Pulley, transcooler (http://www.mwshowgo67.com/GTPrix/index.htm)
| Brilliant Red Metallic 1990 IROC-Z Camaro, K&N, Camaro SS takeoff muffler (http://www.mwshowgo67.com/red90iroc/index.htm) | NBM 99 Formula, SOLD in Aug. 02. (http://www.mwshowgo67.com/formula99/index.htm)

Z284ever

09-13-2002, 01:08 AM

Originally posted by WERM:
Most of what the Camaro had going for it was an amazing V8 powertrain. Take that away and you get a big heavy car that's a pain in the ass to get in and out of, difficult to see out of and doesn't feel nimble (sure, the handling limits of a camaro are high, but it feels big heavy and ponderous at slow speeds like on a test drive). I can easily see why Mustang V6 sales would be much higher. Why would you make all those compromises in a V6 Camaro for performance's sake and then get the base motor? Doesn't make any sense. A Mustang is easy to live with - just as easy as a Grand Am ...



I agree, and maybe I can say this algebraically:

(4th gen)-(V8)= NO PRODUCT

Z284ever

09-13-2002, 01:25 AM

Originally posted by formula79:

So you are looking at 140,000 cars that can be sold...now say we go low and only half decide they want another GM Coupe..well that would be 70,000 cars that the F-body or J-car could have...and that's a lowball number. Alot of people who buy coupes buy them because they want a two door...and will have a hard time settling for a 4 door.So if I am in a Ford dealer and want a two door I can have a Focus hatch or a Mustang, no other choices. I am willing to bet alot of people rather than just going to a dealer that has what they want buy a V6 Mustnag because they get talked into it and the heritage.



Branden, I see the point you are making and am following your line of logic, but.....

...do you really, really think that if there were no Monte Carlo or Grand Am coupe that GM would have moved an additional 70-140K Cavalier coupes and F-bodies?

Or would the consumer take his business elsewhere?

ProudPony

09-13-2002, 08:10 AM

Originally posted by Z284ever:
Branden, I see the point you are making and am following your line of logic, but.....

...do you really, really think that if there were no Monte Carlo or Grand Am coupe that GM would have moved an additional 70-140K Cavalier coupes and F-bodies?

Or would the consumer take his business elsewhere?


Hmmmm... nice point, Z284ever. A unique twist to what I was eluding to above... trying to quantify those "lost sales".

My humble thoughts on your scenario are that some true-blue GM loyals WOULD stay on the lot and buy J- or F-cars - maybe 25% max.

The majority would struggle with it a good bit, probably shopping around to let price/preference/availabilty decide for them. With Avalons, V6 Accords, Taurus V6 DOHCs, Camrys, 240hp Maximas, Diamantes, and numerous others with "chrome wheels", leather, and pinstripes - there are many chances for GM to lose that potential buyer for the first time. Maybe 50% or so fall into this group - not a certain lost sale, but a likely one.

Then there is the remainder, another 25%.I would count these into a "clueless" category. They know nothing about cars at all. Maybe went to lunch in a freinds MonteCarlo and liked it, so they went looking for one. Since they couldn't find it on the lot (per your hypothetical), they just started looking for a "roomy V6". They end up driving away in a Montana or a Trailblazer because it had the V6 too, it had lots of room, easier to get in/out of, room for luggage and kids, yadda-yadda-yadda.

So, IMO about 60-70% of the buyers would go elsewhere. This seems like rambling, but I swear I talk to people all the time who buy like this. It's almost impulse buying. Marketing people make their living researching and speculating like this!

formula79

09-13-2002, 09:22 AM

Well i guess the key would be understanding how many buyers choose the Mustang because they have no other choice at a Ford dealer. The V6 Mustang IMO is no better than a V6 F-body in any respect, space, power, handling, ect. To me the only big thing is you sit a bit higher than in the Mustang...but younger buyers seemed to like the lower f-body seating.
What I wonder is say ford a had a FWD (shortened Taurus?) based coupe that looked as racey and had as good an image has the Grand Am GT and more room than a Mustang. I am not talking huge like an MN-12 T-bird or Fox based Cougar..I am talking around the size of the Grand Am or slightly larger. Powertrain would be a run of the mill FWD V6 with 175-200 HP. What would happen?

Well first off the car would replace the Mustang has Hertz's standard mid-sized car. Ford put 40,000 V6 Mustangs in Hertz fleet last year, just because they have no other mid-sized car to use where Avis uses the Grand Am and Alero. in rental car speak the Taurus and Impala are full sized. Avis currently uses GM N-bodies has thier midsized car...Ford uses just the Mustang. I think it is reasonale to say that this new imaginary coupe would take 30,000 of those 40K sales off the bat. Also imagine what kinda damage a V6 FWD car with a performance image (looks fast) could do to the V6 Stang. I would say the new car could easily sell 70-100K which is what the Monte Carlo does, and half if not more would come from people who otherwise would settle for a V6 Mustang.

Ford through lack of selection and fleet sales artificially inflates the Mustang's sales compared to the F-body. I still hold the opinion that if you lifted the Grand Am GT Coupe and Monte Carlo the Camaro would easily sell 100K units ples every year. I have heards salesmen talk women out of the V6 F-body before because "it isn't good in the rain, and not what you need", and instead sell them a Monte or Grand Am, or J-body. That simply doesn't happen in a Ford dealer...all possible coupe coustomers are steered toward the Mustang...

However keep in mind...GM doesn't wanna sell alot of V6 F-body's because they loose money on them...Where the Mustang makes money...so this may explain the sales approach.

I have often wondered also if the reason Ford buried the New Edge Cougar was because it started to eat into the core of female buyers who would otherwise buy V6 Mustangs?

------------------
Branden-Founder- GMInsidenews (http://www.gminsidenews.com) and NewAgeGTO (http://www.NewAgeGTO.com)
1995 Firebird (http://www.gminsidenews.com/me2.htm) White with Red Leather!- 2002 TA exhuast, JVC Head unit, 350 watt amp pushing two 10" subs..
Slow can be sexy

Z284ever

09-13-2002, 10:48 AM

I wonder what they sales figures for F-car/J-car coupe/GrandAm coupe/MonteCarlo are vs Mustang/Focus 2-door are?

....and I wonder what they would be if J-car were as updated as Focus?

guionM

09-13-2002, 01:27 PM

Originally posted by ProudPony:
guionM,
I admit that you suprised me here... Do you think they really marketed Pinto and Mustang separately? ..

[This message has been edited by ProudPony (edited September 12, 2002).]

Back then everyone went into a economy kick, so Mustang was touted as an economy car first and formost.

The 75 Chevy Monza was basically a rebodied Vega, while Ford at least streached Pinto's floorpan, and created a different body structure for Mustang.

Din't mean to surprize you too much there. It's just that in this instance, we have 2 cars that though similar do have some structural as well as appearence differences, sold by the same dealer to slightly different people.

The best modern day example I can think of to compare this to is the Bonneville & Grand Prix with the same end result. One of them eventually is discontinued.

Z284ever

09-13-2002, 04:35 PM

Originally posted by formula79:

However keep in mind...GM doesn't wanna sell alot of V6 F-body's because they loose money on them...Where the Mustang makes money...so this may explain the sales approach.

 Why is that?
I'll bet that is another "urban myth".

WERM

09-13-2002, 06:50 PM

Originally posted by formula79:
What I wonder is say ford a had a FWD (shortened Taurus?) based coupe that looked as racey and had as good an image has the Grand Am GT and more room than a Mustang. I am not talking huge like an MN-12 T-bird or Fox based Cougar..I am talking around the size of the Grand Am or slightly larger. Powertrain would be a run of the mill FWD V6 with 175-200 HP. What would happen?


It was called the PROBE and was only partially successfull. It was replaced with the Cougar which was even less successful.

------------------
Never trust anyone with lots of plants.

2001 Mustang Bullitt GT (http://mywebpages.comcast.net/thill294318MI/welcome2.htm)
2000 Jetta M5
1988 C1500 A3

formula79

09-13-2002, 09:18 PM

Originally posted by Z284ever:
Originally posted by formula79:

However keep in mind...GM doesn't wanna sell alot of V6 F-body's because they loose money on them...Where the Mustang makes money...so this may explain the sales approach.

 Why is that?
I'll bet that is another "urban myth".

No it isn't an urban legend...at least the part about them not making money on them is...that is from the horses mouth. I assumed they wouldn't wanna sell alot because, well what business wants to sell alot of cars they make money on.

The Probe and Mustang were bother buried BECAUSE of the Mustang. Ford dealers push the mustang above all other options...GM dealers make the F-body the lowest option.

Z284ever

09-13-2002, 11:08 PM

Originally posted by formula79:

No it isn't an urban legend...at least the part about them not making money on them is...that is from the horses mouth. I assumed they wouldn't wanna sell alot because, well what business wants to sell alot of cars they make money on.

The Probe and Mustang were bother buried BECAUSE of the Mustang. Ford dealers push the mustang above all other options...GM dealers make the F-body the lowest option.

Oh, I've heard that before too (maybe even from the same horses mouth that you have http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif).

It's just that I have a hard time understanding it. I know that St. Therese had some inefficencies but....

If you can't sell an old, low cost platform, with live rear axle and cast iron pushrod V6 with low rent trim materials for low $20K or so...and not make a profit, something is amiss.

Maybe that's one of the reasons for this whole hiatus thing.

RiceEating5.0

09-14-2002, 12:08 AM

Originally posted by formula79:
So then what would explain the huge sales difference between the V6 Mustang and V6 F-Body?

4 main reasons:

1. v6 mustang is cheaper - check the base MSRP. $18,100 to $19,015, plus i've seen v6 stangs for allot less then the msrp.

2. v6 mustang is lighter - 3114lbs to 3323lbs, a difference of 209lbs between 5spd coupes. The v6 5sp camaro coupe is even heavier then a GT.

3. v6 mustang comes with more standard equipment - try finding power Windows, power locks, power drive seat, cruise control, rear defroster, Cassete player, remote keyless entry, and power mirrors standard on the base camaro coupe. You'd have to purchase the "Preferred equipment groups" option which costs extra to equal the base mustangs "standard" equipment.

4. v6 mustang is just better to live with to your average consumer (as some have said, sits higher, less blind spots, etc...)

It's basically cheaper over all and from my point of view, just the better value. I remember doing a price quote/comparo on both similarly equipped models a year back and the mustang v6 came out to be 1,500-2,000 dollars cheaper. That's a good chunk of cash. You can basically get a car that's just as fast and well equipped for much less. That alone is enough to sway most potential buyers. Even the base GT is better equipped then the base z28/formula. Both again would need "Preferred equipment groups" option/package to be similarly equipped as the base GT. Of course, the GT isn't anywhere near fast http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif and that becomes it's drawback.

[This message has been edited by RiceEating5.0 (edited September 14, 2002).]

formula79

09-14-2002, 12:50 AM

Originally posted by RiceEating5.0:
4 main reasons:

1. v6 mustang is cheaper - check the base MSRP. $18,100 to $19,015, plus i've seen v6 stangs for allot less then the msrp.

2. v6 mustang is lighter - 3114lbs to 3323lbs, a difference of 209lbs between 5spd coupes. The v6 5sp camaro coupe is even heavier then a GT.

3. v6 mustang comes with more standard equipment - try finding power Windows, power locks, power drive seat, cruise control, rear defroster, Cassete player, remote keyless entry, and power mirrors standard on the base camaro coupe. You'd have to purchase the "Preferred equipment groups" option which costs extra to equal the base mustangs "standard" equipment.

4. v6 mustang is just better to live with to your average consumer (as some have said, sits higher, less blind spots, etc...)

It's basically cheaper over all and from my point of view, just the better value. I remember doing a price quote/comparo on both similarly equipped models a year back and the mustang v6 came out to be 1,500-2,000 dollars cheaper. That's a good chunk of cash. You can basically get a car that's just as fast and well equipped for much less. That alone is enough to sway most potential buyers. Even the base GT is better equipped then the base z28/formula. Both again would need "Preferred equipment groups" option/package to be similarly equipped as the base GT. Of course, the GT isn't anywhere near fast http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif and that becomes it's drawback.

[This message has been edited by RiceEating5.0 (edited September 14, 2002).]

Yes...but say the average 18 year old V6 Mustang buying girl walks into a Ford dealer and they have a car like the Grand Am GT coupe...The girl knows nothing about FWD and doesn't care...All I am saying is that the Mustang's sales are artifically inflated by #1 Fleet sales, and #2 how thier dealers market them. You want a V6 coupe at a ford dealer, then he will almost certainly sell you a mustang. You want a V6 coupe at a Pontiac dealer, he would almost certainly be able to sell you a Grand Am GT or up to this year a Grand Prix GT or GTP before he sold that Firebird.

IZ28

09-14-2002, 03:38 AM

M*****gs are also alot more like regular cars than F-Bodies are. The F-Body tends to get buyers more serious about performance and enthusiasts.

[This message has been edited by IZ28 (edited September 14, 2002).]

RiceEating5.0

09-14-2002, 12:24 PM

Originally posted by formula79:
Yes...but say the average 18 year old V6 Mustang buying girl walks into a Ford dealer and they have a car like the Grand Am GT coupe...The girl knows nothing about FWD and doesn't care...All I am saying is that the Mustang's sales are artifically inflated by #1 Fleet sales, and #2 how thier dealers market them. You want a V6 coupe at a ford dealer, then he will almost certainly sell you a mustang. You want a V6 coupe at a Pontiac dealer, he would almost certainly be able to sell you a Grand Am GT or up to this year a Grand Prix GT or GTP before he sold that Firebird. 

I agree. Last time i went looking for a T/A a year ago, and came up short on $$$$, the sales guy tried so hard in trying to sell me a Grand Prix. He made it out to be just "fast", "sporty", and "fun". If i hadn't known any better, i'd have followed through with it. I simply told him that if i was in the market for something like the GTP, i'd get the new maximas. But like somebody else said, they are'nt only competing within their own brand, but outside it as well. Ford may market 3 coupes but how many are their competitors marketing? PLENTY. The mustang/ford doesn't work out for them, it's move on to GM's and imports. The field/market is wide open. They aren't just limited to mustangs. If they're smart they'll test drive a few other makes before going with one specific makes. I certaintly belive that those wanting a mustang end up in a mustang. That's what bought them to the Ford dealership in the 1st place right? They could have easily went over to the GM's or even imports for their sport coupes. Plus i don't think your typical car owner is as brand loyal as we are. Chevy, ford, dodge, import, it wouldn't matter to most of them as long as the car "appeals" to them.

But the majority of mustang goes to the customer. Even without fleet sales, they'd still sell 6 figures. Assuming all the rentals fall under fleet sales, etc... you'd be looking at $203,000 mustangs sold in 2000. No cobra or bullit either, just the plain ol GT and v6.

'00 BY COLOR:
Black (UA) - 39,791
Silver (YN) - 37,617
Laser Red (E9) - 33,804
Crystal White (ZR) - 32,606
Performance Red (ES) - 17,764
Amazon (Tropic) Green(SU) - 13,262
Atlantic Blue (K6) - 11,873
Electric Green (SW) - 5,206

Sunburst Gold (BP) - 5,171

Bright Atlantic Blue (K7) - 4,979
Zinc Yellow (B7)- 917 (all Spring Feature Cars)

All others
(special fleet orders, etc.)- 15,535

TOTAL: 218,525

WERM

09-14-2002, 12:35 PM

Originally posted by IZ28:
M*****gs are also alot more like regular cars than F-Bodies are. The F-Body tends to get buyers more serious about performance and enthusiasts.


But those serious about performance and enthusiasts are NOT buying the 6 cylinder cars.

------------------
Never trust anyone with lots of plants.

2001 Mustang Bullitt GT (http://mywebpages.comcast.net/thill294318MI/welcome2.htm)
2000 Jetta M5
1988 C1500 A3

Z284ever

09-14-2002, 02:35 PM

Originally posted by WERM:
But those serious about performance and enthusiasts are NOT buying the 6 cylinder cars.

That's true...and how unfortunate!

Even though the base V6 versions of these cars are sold and marketed as loss leader/econo versions ( more successfully by Ford than by GM)..I consider this a lost opportunity.

It's too bad these V6 base models (the former F-body Y87 was a good start) couldn't be made into desirable models...that people wanted to buy rather than settle for.

ProudPony

09-14-2002, 11:05 PM

Originally posted by formula79:

The Probe and Mustang were bother buried BECAUSE of the Mustang. Ford dealers push the mustang above all other options...GM dealers make the F-body the lowest option.

Branden,
I kindof agree, but not entirely. I don't think salesmen are hell-bent on selling every person that comes on the lot wanting a V6 a Mustang. Just today, while out for lunch, I rolled into the tiny little Ford dealer in a small town near my home. He's not an SVT dealer, BTW. Along this line I was interested in what stock he had on hand...
8 Taurus', 9 Focus', 5 Crown Vics, 1 red V6 auto Mustang - that was all the cars! Everything else was trucks... like 12 Rangers, probably 2 dozen F-150s and several SuperDutys. Oh yeah, about 12 Windstars, about 14 or so Explorers, maybe 6 or 7 Expeditions, and 2 Excursions. (I live in the sticks - does that matter for truck sales? http://web.camaross.com/bb/confused.gif )

Now unless the two salesmen in there had sold all the Mustangs already this week, I don't see why the inventory leaned so heavily towards the Focus and Taurus. The Taurus ain't dead yet, and it is still selling like hotcakes, last I heard. I think the Tarus is where the salesman want to put the "unwitted V6 buyer". If the buyer is young(er) and the word "sporty" comes up in the conversation, sure... they are over to the Mustang.

Otherwise, I think the new Focus is the car getting all the sales hype right now. I see 10 Focus commercials for every Stang commercial, and the Focus is all over the Papers and Mags.

Likewise, I think GM is tooting the GP more heavily than anything (CAR-wise) right now. Next in popularity I think I see more ads and talk about the Cavalier.

So in conclusion, I think RiceEating5.0 hit the nail on the head (if I am reading him right) when he said "I certaintly belive that those wanting a mustang end up in a mustang." I too think that probably +80% of Mustang buyers don't even shop for "a car" or let a salesman "sell" them one... they knew what they wanted before they even left the house - they go find it or order it. Also, that's why we see such a variety of the cars with different colors/options... they are ordered to meet a customers desires - the purchase already made mentally before even going to the dealer.

Just .02 on Mustang's "retail" sales.

[This message has been edited by ProudPony (edited September 14, 2002).]

formula79

09-15-2002, 03:46 PM

Originally posted by ProudPony
Branden,
I kindof agree, but not entirely. I don't think salesmen are hell-bent on selling every person that comes on the lot wanting a V6 a Mustang. Just today, while out for lunch, I rolled into the tiny little Ford dealer in a small town near my home. He's not an SVT dealer, BTW. Along this line I was interested in what stock he had on hand...
8 Taurus', 9 Focus', 5 Crown Vics, 1 red V6 auto Mustang - that was all the cars! Everything else was trucks... like 12 Rangers, probably 2 dozen F-150s and several SuperDutys. Oh yeah, about 12 Windstars, about 14 or so Explorers, maybe 6 or 7 Expeditions, and 2 Excursions. (I live in the sticks - does that matter for truck sales? http://web.camaross.com/bb/confused.gif )

Now unless the two salesmen in there had sold all the Mustangs already this week, I don't see why the inventory leaned so heavily towards the Focus and Taurus. The Taurus ain't dead yet, and it is still selling like hotcakes, last I heard. I think the Tarus is where the salesman want to put the "unwitted V6 buyer". If the buyer is young(er) and the word "sporty" comes up in the conversation, sure... they are over to the Mustang.

Otherwise, I think the new Focus is the car getting all the sales hype right now. I see 10 Focus commercials for every Stang commercial, and the Focus is all over the Papers and Mags.

Likewise, I think GM is tooting the GP more heavily than anything (CAR-wise) right now. Next in popularity I think I see more ads and talk about the Cavalier.

So in conclusion, I think RiceEating5.0 hit the nail on the head (if I am reading him right) when he said "I certaintly belive that those wanting a mustang end up in a mustang." I too think that probably +80% of Mustang buyers don't even shop for "a car" or let a salesman "sell" them one... they knew what they wanted before they even left the house - they go find it or order it. Also, that's why we see such a variety of the cars with different colors/options... they are ordered to meet a customers desires - the purchase already made mentally before even going to the dealer.

Just .02 on Mustang's "retail" sales.

[This message has been edited by ProudPony (edited September 14, 2002).]

No the dealers assortment is roughly the proportions that they are likely to sell. I am willing to bet the sell 2-3 more Taurus's, Focus's (Foci), Rangers then they doV6 Mustangs...that is just how the sales work. My point was if you look at a buyer who is trying to buy a coupe and has thier mide set on it...The Ford dealer will go all out trying to get you in a Mustang over all other models...the Probe and Cougar to an extent. In a GM dealer it seems like a V6 F-body was teh last thing they wanted you to buy. An ex I had wanted a a Z28 once and the dealer talked her out of it because they are "bad in the snow" (she lived in PA at the time), and sold her a Cavalier Z24. I wanted to scream when I heard that since a Z28 almost certainly would have had traction control. Anyway...that is the kind of crap GM dealers pull in regards to F-body's. In order to buy one you have to know exactly what you want and enough to fight back when they try and talk you out of it. Kinda makes me wonder how much the average GM dealer makes off a V6 F-body compared to teh Ford Dealer makes off a V6 Stang.

guionM

09-16-2002, 01:44 PM

Originally posted by formula79
Yes...but say the average 18 year old V6 Mustang buying girl ....

You make some good points but a correction is in order.

Although in reality 18 year olds make up about <1% of the new car buying public, and about half of that is female, they tend to buy small 4 door FWD cars (ie: Hondas). They (or their dads) want a car that is the most dependable and as maintenence free as possible. Unfortunately that means small imports.

Also, even though I've said this often, Mustangs, including the V6 versions, are bought mostly by men. It runs about 58-60% on the V6, and about 70%+ on the GT.

Mission accomplished. Please continue. ;)

formula79

09-16-2002, 01:55 PM

Originally posted by guionM
You make some good points but a correction is in order.

Although in reality 18 year olds make up about <1% of the new car buying public, and about half of that is female, they tend to buy small 4 door FWD cars (ie: Hondas). They (or their dads) want a car that is the most dependable and as maintenence free as possible. Unfortunately that means small imports.

Also, even though I've said this often, Mustangs, including the V6 versions, are bought mostly by men. It runs about 58-60% on the V6, and about 70%+ on the GT.

Mission accomplished. Please continue. ;)

It was an example ment to show the average person who wants a sports car but doesn't know or car about FWD or RWD...power, ect.

guionM

09-16-2002, 02:08 PM

Originally posted by formula79
It was an example ment to show the average person who wants a sports car but doesn't know or car about FWD or RWD...power, ect.

I see, and again you are making some good points.

But just to add, I think that a person who is about to become married to GMAC or their local bank for the next 5 years who want's a sports car will do a bit of homework & know what they are looking for in a car. I'll easily admit that a majority of buyers probally don't care if their car is FWD or AWD, or is under the conception that FWD is safer, but I feel they probally know which wheels are driving their car. But simply because they are looking for a sports car I think separates them from those who are using Consumer Reports magazine to decide for them.

formula79

09-16-2002, 02:56 PM

Originally posted by guionM
I see, and again you are making some good points.

But just to add, I think that a person who is about to become married to GMAC or their local bank for the next 5 years who want's a sports car will do a bit of homework & know what they are looking for in a car. I'll easily admit that a majority of buyers probally don't care if their car is FWD or AWD, or is under the conception that FWD is safer, but I feel they probally know which wheels are driving their car. But simply because they are looking for a sports car I think separates them from those who are using Consumer Reports magazine to decide for them.

I know once you are car smart how hard it is to think car dumb. Most women who know the difference between FWD and RWD won't have a RWD car because they are brainwashed into thinking they are unsafe. I think back in the days of teh third gen and before these same women buying Grand Ams and SUV''s because they are safe and FWD or AWD would have been buying F-bodies. The Mustang i have noticed is the exception..it seems to be every girls goal to have one...especially the girls I went to school with.

Either way my point of all this is that due to differences in model line GM dealers sold the F-body in a much less aggresive posture than Ford sells the Mustnag...which makes me wonder if it wasn't that they couldn't sell them..but more that they didnt want to.

guionM

09-16-2002, 04:25 PM

Originally posted by formula79
I know once you are car smart how hard it is to think car dumb. Most women who know the difference between FWD and RWD won't have a RWD car because they are brainwashed into thinking they are unsafe. I think back in the days of teh third gen and before these same women buying Grand Ams and SUV''s because they are safe and FWD or AWD would have been buying F-bodies. The Mustang i have noticed is the exception..it seems to be every girls goal to have one...especially the girls I went to school with.

Either way my point of all this is that due to differences in model line GM dealers sold the F-body in a much less aggresive posture than Ford sells the Mustnag...which makes me wonder if it wasn't that they couldn't sell them..but more that they didnt want to.

All good points.

But just to offer a different perspective, my sister went from a Cavalier (bought new when she was 21) to a Mustang V6 (at age 25) to a Camaro V6 (age 34). She made up her mind she wanted a sports car with a t-top (and she got sick of Ford's screwups), so Camaro was it. It's jet black, headlight covers, and a 5 speed stick with manual windows & seats, and she's looking to bypass the speed governer (she lives in Arizona). She joking calls it her "stud magnet". At least one of her friends bought one sine then (also over 30).

I'm sure everyone has a different view on this, but I suspect women aren't too different from us. If they want a particular car, they'll get it. Over a third of Camaro buyers are women, while Mustang runs about 38%, not alot of difference. But the whole point is moot anyhow, because when you add up how many men buy Mustangs vs Camaros, we'd probally cry. :(

There is a sizable age difference between Camaro & Mustang buyers, and that is easily noticed on the street (at least out here in Cali).