A few thoughts about when the next Camaro comes out (and GM is making RWD again).

Just a few sober thoughts (unfortunately, I didn't partake in the usual Halloween festivities last night :().

GM will be back in the volume RWD business in less than 36 months (possibly as soon as 24). 3 years ago, the Solstice concept had been out 10 months already, living in Long Beach, for the 1st time I was in close contact with people who both coordinated the LA auto show & some of the people who made the concepts, had my 1st visits to the nearby Ford PAG/Mazda USA complex, and discovered that the I405 corrador not only was a west coast Detroit as far as future cars & that there was probally more prototypes cruising around that stretch than around Detroit itself..... in other words, 3 years isn't much time....at all!

The item that drives the 5th gen thread is the soap opera of GM's return to a volume RWD chassis. I showed up here shortly after GM tentatively decided that they would kill off Camaro. Since then I've met ALOT of great people behind the scenes, suppliers, even chairmans that I up till then I only read about. Not only from GM, but the other 2 US makers as well.

Been here through the time both Ford & Chrysler's vaults were bursting at the seems with cash & GM's "give-away-the-shop" strike settlement. Jac Nasser's efforts to move Ford upmarket and diversification as well as his and Ford's crash and burn. Chrysler's rape at the hands of Juergen Schrempp, and Chrysler's stunning return. But underneath it all was my desire to see the Camaro return and.... most important of all....BE COMPETITIVE IN THE SALES ARENA!!!

I see the next Camaro as being that. I see the next Camaro returning to it's roots that it strayed from begining in the 70s.

As a previous owner of a '68 Camaro, then many years later becoming a 3 time and current owner of the 4th gen after coming over from a series of Mustangs in between, I can easily see where the 4th gen went wrong. It became an out of the box car that did everything so well, and left so little to change or personalize for the people who would buy this type of car. In short, the Camaro simply lost it's fun factor.

Sure, nothing beats taking off the T-tops on a sunny, warm Los Angeles day, and driving around town (avoiding the freeways ;) ) with a good CD and the rumble of an LT1 as background music (LS1 simply don't cut it in this area).

But buyers of this type of car, like me, want to do things to it.... on a budget. For example, over the years I did the following things to my '85 CHP Stang coupe (and this is by no means a complete list):
*Adjusted the timing by moving the distributer a few degrees.
*Added a racing radiator to match the silicone hoses.
*Newer special service kevlar fanbelt.
*Underdrive pulleys except for the alternator.
*Steering oil cooler
*Hurst shifter and an racing SVO clutch
*Shorty headers, and later a GT40 head & intake set with matching cam.
*Upgraded front brakes
*woodgrain dash panels from a wreaked Capri
*Chrome Motorsport intake airlid for it's dual snorkel aircleaner
*Strut tower brace and aftermarket shocks and upsized tires (especially in the rear).
*and alot more.

My goal was to make my Mustang indestructable through sustained high speed desert runs (especially weekend runs between San Diego and Vegas) and made it an autocross wonder. I could customize my Mustang to fit my specific need or desire.

By comparison, short of exhaust tips, custom paint, painted calipers, things I wanted to do to my Camaro were either non-existant or more money than I wanted to spend. In short, I couldn't modify it to my purposes or desires, and the factory pieces (especially the alternator and clutch, as well as the rear end) were junk compared to the Mustang I had that was 12 years older.

Sure, a Mustang doesn't stay as glued to the road as the Camaro out the box, meaning it takes less skill. But this means that for someone coming from Mustang, Camaro is pretty dull. In the Mustang, I got to pick various parts from both Ford and aftermarket companies to personalize my Mustang. Then at meets, owners would gather and share what they did to their Mustang, what worked, what didn't, whose speed shop did a great job, and there wre also a variety of factory Mustangs. They'd be a couple of SVOs, or a few Cobras from various years. I had Special Service Mustangs (my 85 dressed up with police rims with bolted on center caps & trim rings, 245s, and a woodgrain dash from a Capri). The only thing you hear about Camaro is they beat Mustangs. Meanwhile I'm thinking to myself "And..........???"

I have a feeling the next Camaro will address all Camaro's ills. I thing GM understands the need for owner involvement in the creation of their cars, judging by GM's actions with the aftermarket regarding the HHR & Cobalt, and their vivid attention to how the current Mustang is winning converts from even the Import Tuner community.

Once the new Camaro comes out, and a related Chevrolet Sedan that will undoubtedly spread to other divisions, and Chevrolet recreates the excitement of owner involvement in personalization from the Chevy's of my youth, what's going to be the next step of this "5th gen & future cars community"?

For me it's my enthusiasm for a good fight and wanting Chevrolet to get back in the ring that's driven me.

Once Chevy's back in the ring, it's going to be a little less fuel in this community.

Then what?

Then the debate begins about what the 6th gen has to offer. ;)

what's going to be the next step of this "5th gen & future cars community"?

6th gen & Future Vehicle Discussion / Automotive News

:D

There will ALWAYS be something to talk about here. Heck, a great majority of the threads right now have absolutely nothing to do with the Camaro.

Sounds like we're still looking at a MY08 or MY09 Camaro....perhaps an 09 in early CY08.

You mentioned a "related Chevrolet sedan." I suppose this means that the new Camaro will be built off a platform that is shared with a variety of other cars (Zeta, Beta, Deta, Geta, whatever). The economics of scale obviously points towards the sensibility of this approach, but hasn't Camaro always been on its own chassis - at least from the 3rd Gen on?

It will become the Lounge.

It became an out of the box car that did everything so well, and left so little to change for the people who would buy this type of car, the Camaro simply lost it's fun factor.

But a Mustang doesn't stay as glued to the road as the Camaro, meaning it takes less skill, meaning that for someone coming from Mustang, it's a bit dull.

Somehow, I really doubt this was the the cause of the 4th gens woes. When have you ever heard of car sales taking a slump, because they performed too well? That is just ridiculous. Does that mean that the Vettes would sell better if they performed worse? That the owners would be more inclined to buy one if they could personalize it for themselves? But Vette owners are older right, and don't want to be bothered by personalizing? But I thought the average age of the Mustang GT buyer was around 40 something, so according to the *ahem* market research, the Mustang owners can't be that much younger. The number one thing the Camaro needs to sell is style, plain and simple. It does not need to take a step backwards in performance. Quite the opposite. The world is marching on, and the new Camaro needs to be competitive in its field straight from the factory. A very stylish car, that performs really well, is the answer to what the new 5th gen needs to be, so it will please all of the performance junkies as well as the posers.


I and their vivid attention to how the current Mustang is winning converts from even the Import Tuner community.

I would like to see at least one import shop that starting working on Mustangs when the new one came out. The new Mustang may be selling really well, but it really isn't taken all that seriously in the performance world. There really isn't that much difference in the eyes of an import lover between the old one and the new one. Almost the same identical engine, and heavier than the old model. The new Mustang gets recieved on this board like it is part of some sort of automotive renaissance, but it isn't destroying peoples perceptions of what the Mustang has been and still is, especially with the "tuner" crowd.

But a Mustang doesn't stay as glued to the road as the Camaro, meaning it takes less skill, meaning that for someone coming from Mustang, it's a bit dull.

Hang on, I don't follow at all. So the Camaro handles better and "sticks to the road better" which means it isn't as fun to drive as a Mustang? :confused: I suppose if you like braking earlier and taking curves slower and less confidently, sure the less capable car would be more fun. :think: Makes tossing those SUVs around through the twisties sound like a riot!

In the Mustang, I got to pick various parts from both Ford and aftermarket companies to personalize my Mustang. Then at meets, owners would gather and share what they did to their Mustang, what worked, what didn't, whose speed shop did a great job....

The aftermarket has always been quite supportive of the F-bodies, although I agree the big events have been a bit of a let-down as far as attendence (how many years has Red pledged to quit smoking if just 1,000 cars show up at the national F-body event in BG...heck 1,000 cars is considered a smaller regional event for Mustang). Camaro and Firebird owners do all the same stuff Mustang owners do in terms of modification and performance enhancements, I guess it just depends on your definition of "fun"...Do you prefer to mod your car to reach the competition's level or would you prefer the "out-of-the-box" performance that's a little more expensive or difficult to mod?

I would like to see at least one import shop that starting working on Mustangs when the new one came out.

Me too. Let's be honest, while the new Mustang is a pretty nice success for Ford, let's not look at it through "All-American muscle car" glasses. The cars that win over the "import" crowd are SRT-4s and (perhaps) Cobalt SS. A modern day turbo V6 version of the Grand National would intrigue that crowd. A bigger, heavier pony car with retro styling doesn't exactly pander to the 20-something west coast import lover. It doesn't have that crossover formula. And just to be fair, I don't expect the new Camaro's formula to win over sport compact enthusiasts either. And that's just fine by me.

Personally, for me one of the main reasons I went with a my Z/28 over a foxbody was the stock performance, (besides the fact that they look better, are much cooler to drive and are a Chevy/Pontiac,lol). I figured, well I can buy a nice fox for like 3-4k and then put the rest of my cash into mods, or I can spend more on an F-body that looks better and performs far better from the factory. I went with choice B. I have never understood why people are so infatuated with Mustangs. There is nothing special about them. Even when they were faster in the 80's that's all they were. By the fourth gen they had absolutely nothing on f-bodies. The way I see it is if you want a softer, less performance oriented me-too car, you buy a Mustang. If you want a real performance car that is affordable, fun, and good looking, you buy an F-body. The F-body was always the more hardcore of the cars and should remain that way. If the 5th is anything less than that I'll probably look elsewhere. The new 'Stang is a very sorry excuse for a muscle/performance car is you ask me. Chevy should stay far away from Ford's formula...If that can't be done then the Camaro/Firebird should be left dead. Better that then ruining their reputation by softening the car up.

Sometimes I feel like a broken record, 'cause I know I've said this before....

I don't believe the 4th gen failed because of it's performance....it failed because it offered nothing more than that performance.

Ask yourself these questions:
Other than people on this board...

1) How many people do you know who felt the 4th gen was drop dead gorgeous?

2) How many people do you know who felt the 4th gen was the right size?

3) How many people do you know who found the 4th gen's interior/ergonomics/driving position to be "just right"?

4) How many people do you know who felt the 4th gen had an appealing model line-up?

5) And how many people do you know who answered positively to questions 1-4, who actually bought new?

As far as I'm concerned...performance was the 4th gen's ONE saving grace.

BTW, good thread Guy...it's been slow around here. ;)

Somehow, I really doubt this was the the cause of the 4th gens woes. When have you ever heard of car sales taking a slump, because they performed too well? That is just ridiculous.

You just proved my point on how many Camaro owners are pretty out of touch.

Charlie said it PERFECTLY in the above post. If anyone thinks crediblity in performance circles alone is going to make a car work should be working for Isuzu or some other company that's poised for the scrapheap of automotive history. Mustang did so many things right that Camaro's performance edge did zero for it, and actually may have hurt it (I wish I had a dollar for every person who though my '97 Z got worse mileage than the same year Mustang GT!).

4th gen Camaro Z28 (especially starting in 1998) simply blew away Mustang GT in performance in every catagory. Camaro's starting in 1998 went into what can only be described as a freefall in sales.

I'm giving my point as someone who has owned quite a few of both, and I can tell you my observations from both sides that is likely going to be shared by others who have owned both.

You say it's ridiculous, so let's hear your explaination for Mustang's trouncing of Camaro. :)


I would like to see at least one import shop that starting working on Mustangs when the new one came out. The new Mustang may be selling really well, but it really isn't taken all that seriously in the performance world. There really isn't that much difference in the eyes of an import lover between the old one and the new one. Almost the same identical engine, and heavier than the old model. The new Mustang gets recieved on this board like it is part of some sort of automotive renaissance, but it isn't destroying peoples perceptions of what the Mustang has been and still is, especially with the "tuner" crowd.

Again, a narrow Camaro view. Saleen ring a bell? How about Roush? Both had versions of the new Mustang out the box. Both were privy to Mustang's development expecially so they could get their own versions out soon after the new Mustang hit the streets. Ford made them part of the process! :eek:

I don't know about how things are in your area, but I'd be willing to wager that every single person here in California has seen more variations of the new Mustang in just a year of production than there was of the 4th gen F-body it's entire 9 year run.

I can also give you more links than you'd know what to do with, if you'd like.

Bottom line is this, Mustang is taken VERY seriously in the performance world. Perhaps it may not be in your corner, or your group. But even if you don't take my word for it, Mustang is currently THE performance car.

The guys behind the next Camaro are taking alot of notes..... trust me on this. ;)

(BTW: You noticed it's been slow around here too, huh Charlie? :lol: )

It will become the Lounge.

Yup. This place is going to go to hell in a handbasket as soon as they unveil the first "Camaro Concept". At least until the admins separate 5th gen from "Future Vehicle Discussion".


As far as I'm concerned...performance was the 4th gen's ONE saving grace.


Yup. The Mustang sold with the underpowered Mustang engine, but if the Camaro had the same engine instead of the LT1/LS1, it would have tanked, BIG TIME.

You just proved my point on how many Camaro owners are pretty out of touch.

4th gen Camaro Z28 (especially starting in 1998) simply blew away Mustang GT in performance in every catagory. Camaro's starting in 1998 went into what can only be described as a freefall in sales.

I'm giving my point as someone who has owned quite a few of both, and I can tell you my observations from both sides that is likely going to be shared by others who have owned both.

You say it's ridiculous, so let's hear your explaination for Mustang's trouncing of Camaro. :)


You know, I did own a 2001 GT for almost two years. Hence the username. They are certainly not foreign to me, and I really would have to say you are the one way out of touch. How exactly do you think that the Camaro performing too well killed its sales numbers? That is utter garbage. Saying I have a narrow minded Camaro viewpoint is simply an attempt to disregard the point I made. The new Camaro should and can perform amazing. It is the styling that needs to be up to snuff. Refer to z284ever's last post. His points should be taken, as they are very insightful into the Camaro's demise.



Again, a narrow Camaro view. Saleen ring a bell? How about Roush? Both had versions of the new Mustang out the box. Both were privy to Mustang's development expecially so they could get their own versions out soon after the new Mustang hit the streets. Ford made them part of the process! :eek:

I don't know about how things are in your area, but I'd be willing to wager that every single person here in California has seen more variations of the new Mustang in just a year of production than there was of the 4th gen F-body it's entire 9 year run.

I can also give you more links than you'd know what to do with, if you'd like.

Bottom line is this, Mustang is taken VERY seriously in the performance world. Perhaps it may not be in your corner, or your group. But even if you don't take my word for it, Mustang is currently THE performance car.

The guys behind the next Camaro are taking alot of notes..... trust me on this. ;)

What exactly is your point about Saleen or Rousch? I wasn't aware they were import tuners. In fact, I wasn't aware they have ever modified an import, so that point bears little semblance of regard to my original point. Besides, are you trying to tell me that if you want real Mustang performance, there is always a $40k Saleen or Rousch you can buy? I wonder how many Mustangs would have ever sold under those pretenses?

I would love for you to give me some links to some import shops that are now modifing Mustangs. That is something I would love to see. And what are your experiences as the Mustang being taken very seriously as a performance car? Because your magazine features them occasionally? The new Mustang has already started to become the car that a body shop will modify to show how stylish the shop can be, and then they all just seem to throw on a blower as an afterthought and are done with it. Have you ever talked to any of the younger guys that go to the street races constantly? The ones who are obsessed with performance first? The only Mustangs that get taken seriously there are the 5.0s, with very few exceptions (before someone jumps down my throat about how street racing is bad, it is not my intention of defending street racing in this post, just proving a point.)

What is your evidence that the Mustang is THE performance car right now? The magazines? Seems to me even the mainstream mags still either rave about how great the new Evos/STIs are, or about how great the new z06 is. The new Mustang is always regarded as a high bang for the buck fun car. Fun and performance don't always go hand in hand, if they did we would be seeing many more Miatas ripping up the road.

But buyers of this type of car, like me, want to do things to it.... on a budget. For example, over the years I did the following things to my '85 CHP Stang coupe (and this is by no means a complete list):
*Adjusted the timing by moving the distributer a few degrees.
*Added a racing radiator to match the silicone hoses.
*Newer special service kevlar fanbelt.
*Underdrive pulleys except for the alternator.
*Steering oil cooler
*Hurst shifter and an racing SVO clutch
*Shorty headers, and later a GT40 head & intake set with matching cam.
*Upgraded front brakes
*woodgrain dash panels from a wreaked Capri
*Chrome Motorsport intake airlid for it's dual snorkel aircleaner
*Strut tower brace and aftermarket shocks and upsized tires (especially in the rear).
*and alot more.

My goal was to make my Mustang indestructable through sustained high speed desert runs (especially weekend runs between San Diego and Vegas) and made it an autocross wonder. I could customize my Mustang to fit my specific need or desire.

By comparison, short of exhaust tips, custom paint, painted calipers, things I wanted to do to my Camaro were either non-existant or more money than I wanted to spend. In short, I couldn't modify it to my purposes or desires, and the factory pieces (especially the alternator and clutch, as well as the rear end) were junk compared to the Mustang I had that was 12 years older.

Sure, a Mustang doesn't stay as glued to the road as the Camaro out the box, meaning it takes less skill. But this means that for someone coming from Mustang, Camaro is pretty dull. In the Mustang, I got to pick various parts from both Ford and aftermarket companies to personalize my Mustang. Then at meets, owners would gather and share what they did to their Mustang, what worked, what didn't, whose speed shop did a great job, and there wre also a variety of factory Mustangs. They'd be a couple of SVOs, or a few Cobras from various years. I had Special Service Mustangs (my 85 dressed up with police rims with bolted on center caps & trim rings, 245s, and a woodgrain dash from a Capri). The only thing you hear about Camaro is they beat Mustangs. Meanwhile I'm thinking to myself "And..........???"

I have a feeling the next Camaro will address all Camaro's ills. I thing GM understands the need for owner involvement in the creation of their cars, judging by GM's actions with the aftermarket regarding the HHR & Cobalt, and their vivid attention to how the current Mustang is winning converts from even the Import Tuner community.

Great post, and very inciteful. However, in your reasoning for the Camaro's demise, I believe you have done what you often (correctly) accuse other here of doing. That is, you've taken your minority opinion, and extended it to the entire market for this car.

Most people, even most Camaro owners, don't really care about modding their vehicles. Most Camaro owners have historically been women driving V6 powered vehicles.

On that note, it's rather simple to explain what happened to the Camaro. While the V8 powered 4th-gens became performance legends, and did quite well for themselves sales wise, the bread and butter V6 coupe was left to flounder and became one of GM's most obsolete vehicles.

What Ford did with the Mustang was to make sure that the V6 powered car carries almost all of the visual appeal of the GT. Ford remembers who'se paying for this car to exist.

Now, think for a second, without the V8, what would have appealed to the average customer about the V6 Camaro. Style? Does anyone really want to argue that the 4th gen Camaro was a looker? Add onto that the wheel covers that came with the base car and you have a rather unattractive car competing in a style segment.

Practicality? Would it really be worth living with those heavy doors, a uselss backseat, and horrible front seat for 3800 V6 performance?

Now, keep in mind I'm asking this from the perspective of an average customer. My dad had a '97 Camaro V6 and liked it, but only because he loved the Camaro to begin with.

People here write that the V6 Camaro could and should be quicker than the base Mustang. Great, I'd like that. But again, it's a case of people here missing the point. What the V6 Camaro needs to be, first and foremost, is a good car. It needs to still have enough appeal without the V8 to make people want to plunk down cash on one rather than on a Mustang, Eclipse, or any of the other sporty coupes in this price range (of which there are a growing number it seems).

The aftermarket has always been quite supportive of the F-bodies, although I agree the big events have been a bit of a let-down as far as attendence (how many years has Red pledged to quit smoking if just 1,000 cars show up at the national F-body event in BG...heck 1,000 cars is considered a smaller regional event for Mustang).

That's true about Mustang, but WHY!!!!????

It seems Ford continuously fuels the Mustang fire for it's enthusiasts. Camaro? Short of our pal RP, .................not much.

Look at the current Mustang. Geeeze, Ford owns this market, it's plant is near capacity, it's competition is nearly non existent....and they still fuel the Mustang fire.
They sure didn't NEED to bring the optional Pony Package on the V6 car this year, but they did. They didn't NEED to make 18" wheels optional (the new fanblades and in spring a version of the Bullitt wheel), on the GT this year (in addition to it's two available 17" wheels)...but they did. GT500, they've shown us.

I should go on, but I've :) got a halloween party to go to..............

Great post, and very inciteful. However, in your reasoning for the Camaro's demise, I believe you have done what you often (correctly) accuse other here of doing. That is, you've taken your minority opinion, and extended it to the entire market for this car.

It certainly seems that way.



Most people, even most Camaro owners, don't really care about modding their vehicles. Most Camaro owners have historically been women driving V6 powered vehicles.


I know that when I had my GT, I didn't have money in excess to throw around at my car (still don't.) If I wanted it to keep up with an LS1 F-Body, I would have needed at least a blower, and more than likely some bolt ons, especially from a roll. Blower kits aren't cheap, even when the come intercoolerless, and throwing a warranty out the window on a daily driven car is not something I really had any intention of doing. The new Camaro should not have to make its buyers resort to buying expensive aftermarket componentry to make the car be where they wanted it to be in the first place; for some people these cars aren't just weekend toys. The aftermarket should exist for people who want to take their cars even further than what the car was from the factory, not correct the factory's mistakes.

Sure, a Mustang doesn't stay as glued to the road as the Camaro out the box, meaning it takes less skill. But this means that for someone coming from Mustang, Camaro is pretty dull.


I've heard this argument before..."Oh, the Mustang's rear will rotate very easily which makes it real fun". I will never understand why people say this. If you like a car that can't corner as well then there isnt much I can say. You can get a Camaro sideways too. If you think it's too hard you can go into an empty parking lot or something and practice it until your hearts content. All I know is when we go through twisty back roads my Mustang buddies get a good view of my tail lights...For a short amount of time at least until I loose them. Also, if your only into going in a straightline Camaros seem to hook far better.


The only thing you hear about Camaro is they beat Mustangs. Meanwhile I'm thinking to myself "And..........???"


To guys that are around my age that may very well be all that matters. Being that I'm almost 18, I grew up seeing tons of 3rd and 4th gen F-bodies. I can understand that many older guys may not see Camaros and Firebirds as vehicles that should have been made so performance oriented, but for someone who was born in the late 80's that was how they were when I came on to the scene so-to-speak. At this point it would be very hard for me personally to accept the new Camaro if it became anything else. Really, my dream would be a 5th gen that could hand an STI/EVO it's a$$ on a road course/ autox. I envision a car that would be much like the 3rd/4th gen cars but put on a weight/size reduction program. If it were the size of an sn-95, (but wider and lower :D ), and weighed < 2,300lbs and had a Z/28 package with a real serious, no-hold-barred suspension, wheel and tire package, and a 1LE option on top of that to take it even further... I would be in love. I have no fear that the car will get good motor options ;)

So, GM here's my wish list:
*Smaller size
*< 2,300 lbs
*Z/28 package that is a serious performance option
*Z/28 1LE package that's an even more serious performance option
*LS2 as min performance power plant
*6 speed manual
*Solid rear
*Suspension design that is at least as advanced as the 4th gen
*Mean, aggressive looks, no retro. I want a modern design, something fresh, (For inspiration look at the new Z06, the 3rd gen Camaros, LT1 4th gen, LS1 TA WS6 and the Viper GTS...And then improve upon those ideas :eek: )
*Seats that hold you in place, ( I dont want leather seats, I want some nice recaro style ones)
*Stiffer structure, no squeaks and rattles and better build quality
*Easier to work on than 4th gens
*< $30,000 for Z/28 1LE

So, do all of this sound crazy? To most people it probably does but it's ok to dream, right? :rolleyes: ;)

Message to GM: I want a new Camaro that has the proportions of a 69!

(sorry, just had to follow up on your sig above :) )

As an outsider looking in, wasn't the the reason for Camaro's decline attributable to its more low-slung body shape than anything else? The F-body's were almost Corvette like in appearance whereas Mustang retained the more upright stance that can be traced back to the original... I've heard this character alone is the main reason Mustang continues to be so popular with pony car fans... not to mention insurance being cheaper for Mustang than Camaro/Firebird.

How else could you explain how a supposedly superior car (in most performance facets) could fail dismally in sales compared to it's more underwhelming rival... apart from GM's neglect to continue to inject more life into its F-body?

Generally speaking, low slung performance vehicles are considered a niche product with relatively low volumes. The Mustang was nearly always true to its roots, which shared its platform with its 4-door siblings. Does this reason alone make the Mustang a more liveable proposition or am I totally off-beam?

You know, I did own a 2001 GT for almost two years. Hence the username. They are certainly not foreign to me, and I really would have to say you are the one way out of touch. How exactly do you think that the Camaro performing too well killed its sales numbers? That is utter garbage. Saying I have a narrow minded Camaro viewpoint is simply an attempt to disregard the point I made. The new Camaro should and can perform amazing. It is the styling that needs to be up to snuff. Refer to z284ever's last post. His points should be taken, as they are very insightful into the Camaro's demise.

Nugging me off my point, huh? :lol:

My exact words were:
" ...It became an out of the box car that did everything so well, and left so little to change or personalize for the people who would buy this type of car. In short, the Camaro simply lost it's fun factor....

...But buyers of this type of car, like me, want to do things to it.... on a budget...

(and finally)... I thing GM understands the need for owner involvement in the creation of their cars, judging by GM's actions with the aftermarket regarding the HHR & Cobalt, and their vivid attention to how the current Mustang is winning converts from even the Import Tuner community...."

I also pointed out how many people were under the illusion that the Camaro drank mor gas than the Mustang. I'd wager that you have heard this as well. That's where Camaro's performance worked against it.... a car with that much performance must drink mor gas, right?.... or so the thinking goes.




What exactly is your point about Saleen or Rousch? I wasn't aware they were import tuners. In fact, I wasn't aware they have ever modified an import, so that point bears little semblance of regard to my original point. Besides, are you trying to tell me that if you want real Mustang performance, there is always a $40k Saleen or Rousch you can buy? I wonder how many Mustangs would have ever sold under those pretenses?

Again, you are nudging my point beyond what I said.

1. I said Mustang is winning over the Import Tuner crowd. You did a pretty good mangling of what I said. Impressive, ingenious, but still wrong.

You asked me what tuners Mustang had out the box, and I told you.

2. I said there was the Ford Performance Catalogue as well as an army of aftermarket tuners. You completely glossed over this, and went straight for the $40K Roush "If I want "real" Mustang performance". The new Mustang GT out the box accelerates as hard as an LS1 till over 60 mph. A computer mod sends this even quicker over a longer distance.



I would love for you to give me some links to some import shops that are now modifing Mustangs.

Again, you are so rabid to prove a point and disarm my observation about the difference between Camaro and Mustang that you either twisted or failed to read what I posted. Somehow I can say "Mustang's winning over Import Tuner fans", and you read it as "Mustang's being done by Import Shops".

Nice Try there bud. :lol:

That is something I would love to see. And what are your experiences as the Mustang being taken very seriously as a performance car? Because your magazine features them occasionally? The new Mustang has already started to become the car that a body shop will modify to show how stylish the shop can be, and then they all just seem to throw on a blower as an afterthought and are done with it. Have you ever talked to any of the younger guys that go to the street races constantly?[quote]

No, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. :rolleyes:

Mustang is being taken serious. Camaros aren't in production today (least we forget). Mustangs also have greater aftermarket backing. If you open some of these magazines instead of simply looking at the covers, I'm sure ye shall find the answers ye seeks. :)

What is your evidence that the Mustang is THE performance car right now? The magazines? Seems to me even the mainstream mags still either rave about how great the new Evos/STIs are, or about how great the new z06 is. The new Mustang is always regarded as a high bang for the buck fun car. Fun and performance don't always go hand in hand, if they did we would be seeing many more Miatas ripping up the road.

Hardly. There is a limited market for a 2 passenger convertible the size of a queen-sized bed. Even the Corvette is trouncing the Miata in sales! But to even suggest that the Miata is a performance car while we're talking about Mustangs is pretty lame. Common! You can do better than that there Russ! :lol:

As for mainstreem mags:

*I've yet to see an Evo/STi on the cover of Popular Hot Rodding or Rod Magazine.
*In the covers of the latest Road & Track's "Speed" magazine, they have a Mustang GT in a comparison test of "Drifting".
*Walk into a 7/11 and you'll see more Mustangs on the cover of magazines than any other single model.

Not intending this as a slam or anything, but since you brought up that you had a Mustang for 2 years, I feel compelled to respond that I had a '85 Mustang special service from 1986 to 1997 (sold at 225,000 miles...155K mi mine), had a '92 SS Mustang during that time, bought another in 97, sold it and bought a '93 in '98, and had 2 more I bought ran and sold along with a GT hatchback till 2000 when I had to move to San Diego, and sold all my cars (including a Thunderbird SC daily driver) & just kept my '97 Camaro Z28. So that puts me at 14 years of continuous Mustang ownership, that also saw me owning a used '93 Z28 (sold at 140,000 miles... 50K mine) followed up by a '97 which I sold just over a month ago (165,000 miles...135K miles mine).

I can run down all the flaws and good of both. Camaro's strength is it's engine and roadholding, Mustang's is it's overall performance and fun factor. With the exception of Ford's dark days of the late 90s, Mustangs tend to be more machinically durable than Camaros, while Camaros are by far more structurally solid than Mustangs.

As an outsider looking in, wasn't the the reason for Camaro's decline attributable to its more low-slung body shape than anything else? The F-body's were almost Corvette like in appearance whereas Mustang retained the more upright stance that can be traced back to the original... I've heard this character alone is the main reason Mustang continues to be so popular with pony car fans... not to mention insurance being cheaper for Mustang than Camaro/Firebird.

How else could you explain how a supposedly superior car (in most performance facets) could fail dismally in sales compared to it's more underwhelming rival... apart from GM's neglect to continue to inject more life into its F-body?

Generally speaking, low slung performance vehicles are considered a niche product with relatively low volumes. The Mustang was nearly always true to its roots, which shared its platform with its 4-door siblings. Does this reason alone make the Mustang a more liveable proposition or am I totally off-beam?


100% correct... at least till I was nudged off base.

The challenge to me was: "A superiorly performing car would never be outsold by an inferior one".

Mustang did it.

All these other stuff is simply diversions and chest thumping. ;)

1. I said Mustang is winning over the Import Tuner crowd.


Again Guy, where is your proof for this statement? I always respect your views and opinions, and a lot of things you say I tend to take as fact more often than not, but the way some people wax poetic about the new Mustang you'd think it's the most significant vehicle since the Model T. :rolleyes: I have seen no evidence that people are jumping out of their hopped-up Civics and into Mustangs. Show me.

*I've yet to see an Evo/STi on the cover of Popular Hot Rodding or Rod Magazine.

C'mon, you should know better than anyone that PHR is an old-school muscle car magazine. Import features are few and far between.

*In the covers of the latest Road & Track's "Speed" magazine, they have a Mustang GT in a comparison test of "Drifting".

There have also been stories of Pontiac's GTO entry into drifting. Is the GTO also lusted after by sport compact guys? :no:

*Walk into a 7/11 and you'll see more Mustangs on the cover of magazines than any other single model.

That's cool. It's a successful, brand new model. When Nissan brought out the 350Z it garnered a lot of attention. Same with the C6. And when the current STI and Evos were introduced....

yes the camaro died because it was such a performer it didnt require tinkering.

I guess ill take my healthy dog out back and shoot him in the head, so i can go get a new one that i have to nurse back to health.

Um...Yea.

I can only tell you how much i missed my mustangs sloppy handling after i purchased my 94 Z, i missed it so much that ive never looked back again

Again Guy, where is your proof for this statement? I always respect your views and opinions, and a lot of things you say I tend to take as fact more often than not, but the way some people wax poetic about the new Mustang you'd think it's the most significant vehicle since the Model T. :rolleyes: I have seen no evidence that people are jumping out of their hopped-up Civics and into Mustangs. Show me.

Come out to California, and I'd be glad to. :D

As an outsider looking in, wasn't the the reason for Camaro's decline attributable to its more low-slung body shape than anything else? The F-body's were almost Corvette like in appearance whereas Mustang retained the more upright stance that can be traced back to the original... I've heard this character alone is the main reason Mustang continues to be so popular with pony car fans... not to mention insurance being cheaper for Mustang than Camaro/Firebird.

The mustangs design ques (in connection with exteriors of the past) arn't what sell the mustang to the 20 somethings, which is what i see most driving these cars are.

I asked myself when i had my 96' cobra before i traded it for my 94 Z28, "lets give some reasons why we shouldnt do this" and honestly i remember the list as clear as day, and here it is.

-Its pretty
-It sounds nice
-My woman loves it
-For crying out loud its a mustang cobra!

Now mind you, i didnt even know why i cared it was a mustang. Thus my point, in the american pony car arena a mustang is just that, a mustang. The mustang since its incarnation has been the original pony car, it is in fact the mustang. I cant even try to explain why the name meant a damn thing to me, but just like others i grew up with the ideal that the mustang was an awesome sports car which was fast!

As i laid in the pony car wars, i ran into a car i never knew much about but at the same time knew all to well from street events. I took a chance on a car most i knew spoke down about (which i feel is oftenly the case because again the mustang in american culture has been built up to something it really is not) and i wish i would have done so sooner, many mustang lovers (mostly young) would have the same experiance if they just could get past the "But i have a Mustang" syndrom i once suffered.

When i first got my Z' i took my Mustang buddy out in it (he had a 1998 mustang GT auto) his facial expression was that of suprise he had always been LEAD to beleive the mustang was a fast pony-car, but in the face of his enemy in the passanger seat he slowly muttered "I must have one man... I cant beleive its THIS large of a difference" he now owns a 2001 Camaro SS.

My point is, the mustang sells SIMPLY because it is in fact, a mustang. (read that however you may, but some will understand what im trying to say i dont have the words)

How else could you explain how a supposedly superior car (in most performance facets) could fail dismally in sales compared to it's more underwhelming rival... apart from GM's neglect to continue to inject more life into its F-body?

Because the mustang sells on name plate alone, hell look at the old cobra II's they would have made better kindling for the fireplace, but hell it was a mustang and some people STILL bought it.

Generally speaking, low slung performance vehicles are considered a niche product with relatively low volumes. The Mustang was nearly always true to its roots, which shared its platform with its 4-door siblings. Does this reason alone make the Mustang a more liveable proposition or am I totally off-beam?

again i think it sells on name plate alone, not to count (yes here i go again) nagging teenagers who push mom and pops to the lots for ass|wow|wanna be cool factor, and the new stylings have only fueled this more.

Hopefully the general will answer back, and this time with a loud booming voice.

Nugging me off my point, huh? :lol:

My exact words were:
" ...It became an out of the box car that did everything so well, and left so little to change or personalize for the people who would buy this type of car. In short, the Camaro simply lost it's fun factor....

...But buyers of this type of car, like me, want to do things to it.... on a budget...

(and finally)... I thing GM understands the need for owner involvement in the creation of their cars, judging by GM's actions with the aftermarket regarding the HHR & Cobalt, and their vivid attention to how the current Mustang is winning converts from even the Import Tuner community...."

I also pointed out how many people were under the illusion that the Camaro drank mor gas than the Mustang. I'd wager that you have heard this as well. That's where Camaro's performance worked against it.... a car with that much performance must drink mor gas, right?.... or so the thinking goes.

I don't really understand the point of bringing this up again. I read what you posted the first time fine. Although I will comment, despite what the EPA numbers suggest, my Camaro does typically indulge itself on gas much more than the Mustang did, at least with any kind of spirited driving.


Again, you are nudging my point beyond what I said.

1. I said Mustang is winning over the Import Tuner crowd. You did a pretty good mangling of what I said. Impressive, ingenious, but still wrong.

You asked me what tuners Mustang had out the box, and I told you.

2. I said there was the Ford Performance Catalogue as well as an army of aftermarket tuners. You completely glossed over this, and went straight for the $40K Roush "If I want "real" Mustang performance". The new Mustang GT out the box accelerates as hard as an LS1 till over 60 mph. A computer mod sends this even quicker over a longer distance.

1. I still want some sort of validation that the new Mustang has won over any kind of performance import enthusiast at all, be they a shop or otherwise. I know too many import enthusiasts to count personally, and although things may be different in other areas, over in my neck of the woods the import crowds barely even picked up on the new Mustang at all. I also don't recall asking what tuners the Mustang had out of the box, because I am already well aware of who does what for the Mustang.

2. I don't recall glossing over anything. You mentioned Saleen and Roush, and I didn't really know where you were going with it while mentioning what effect the new Mustang was having on import tuners, so I interpreted it as best as I could. I personally wouldn't have brought up two American tuners in an arguement to prove what an impact the Mustang has had on the import community. By the way, that must be one hell of a computer tune, I didn't know Ford couldn't tune their new Mustangs for crap. The tunes for the sn95s never yielded power you could feel through a stock or almost stock engine.



Again, you are so rabid to prove a point and disarm my observation about the difference between Camaro and Mustang that you either twisted or failed to read what I posted. Somehow I can say "Mustang's winning over Import Tuner fans", and you read it as "Mustang's being done by Import Shops".

Nice Try there bud. :lol:

Again, I ask. Where do you draw a basis for your conclusion that Mustangs have been winning over import fans at all? When was the last time you talked to a 16 year old high school import fan? When was the last time they said the new Mustang was a car they would want over something like a WRX or SRT-4? Rarely have I ever engaged in a conversation with a person of that age where the conversation has gone anything to that degree.

That is something I would love to see. And what are your experiences as the Mustang being taken very seriously as a performance car? Because your magazine features them occasionally? The new Mustang has already started to become the car that a body shop will modify to show how stylish the shop can be, and then they all just seem to throw on a blower as an afterthought and are done with it. Have you ever talked to any of the younger guys that go to the street races constantly?

[QUOTE]
Hardly. There is a limited market for a 2 passenger convertible the size of a queen-sized bed. Even the Corvette is trouncing the Miata in sales! But to even suggest that the Miata is a performance car while we're talking about Mustangs is pretty lame. Common! You can do better than that there Russ! :lol:

My point had nothing to do with sales numbers. It had everything to do with you labeling the Mustang as the hottest performance car out there, and my contrary opinion to your statement. My remark about Miatas was supposed to imply that the Miata has always been a fun little cheap car, but fun does not equate to performance. Would a Miata run with a Mustang GT on any performance level? Probably not. But it still doesn't make the new Mustang anywhere near the hottest performance car out there. You can pick up a new Evo for around the same price as a GT, and the Evo will butcher it.


As for mainstreem mags:

*I've yet to see an Evo/STi on the cover of Popular Hot Rodding or Rod Magazine.
*In the covers of the latest Road & Track's "Speed" magazine, they have a Mustang GT in a comparison test of "Drifting".
*Walk into a 7/11 and you'll see more Mustangs on the cover of magazines than any other single model.

*Gee, I wonder why there aren't any Evos/STIs on the covers fo Popular Hot Rod or Rod Magazine. I would like to know how many imports at all have been on the cover of either of those magazines, because I would be the number would bet pretty damn small.
*When does drifting have anything to do with performance? Besides, that was not really a good example anyway, considering that the top dogs in drifting are still japanese cars.
*Being on the covers of many car magazines does not a performance car make. The Eclipse has been on the cover of tons of magazines, and yet except for the DSM version, they would not exactly be what one considers a performance car. Besides, I can walk into a Barnes and Noble, and see tons of magazines with Mustangs on the cover, but they tend to be Mustang magazines, or some derivitave of a Ford enthusiast magazine, so I would expect that they would have a Mustang on the cover.


Not intending this as a slam or anything, but since you brought up that you had a Mustang for 2 years, I feel compelled to respond that I had a '85 Mustang special service from 1986 to 1997 (sold at 225,000 miles...155K mi mine), had a '92 SS Mustang during that time, bought another in 97, sold it and bought a '93 in '98, and had 2 more I bought ran and sold along with a GT hatchback till 2000 when I had to move to San Diego, and sold all my cars (including a Thunderbird SC daily driver) & just kept my '97 Camaro Z28. So that puts me at 14 years of continuous Mustang ownership, that also saw me owning a used '93 Z28 (sold at 140,000 miles... 50K mine) followed up by a '97 which I sold just over a month ago (165,000 miles...135K miles mine).

I brought up the Mustang I owned as a counterpoint to you calling me a narrow minded Camaro enthusiast. I might own a red 99 Cobra at the moment, if the dealership that I found it at wasn't being so crappy about the sale.


I can run down all the flaws and good of both. Camaro's strength is it's engine and roadholding, Mustang's is it's overall performance and fun factor. With the exception of Ford's dark days of the late 90s, Mustangs tend to be more machinically durable than Camaros, while Camaros are by far more structurally solid than Mustangs.

I haven't owned as many Camaros or Mustangs as you, so I can't comment on as large of a window of vehicle production time as you can, but both cars mechanically and structurally from the factory suck, in my experiences. If its not Ford's crappy trannies, its GM's crappy rearends. If its not Ford's crappy starters and lust for eating flywheel teeths, its GM's crappy piston slap problems. I don't know about how well the new Mustang is mechanically, but it would do GM well to come a long a well mechanically with the 5th gen. Its a good thing the aftermarket exists to help fix these problems, but this isn't exactly what a performance aftermarket should be about, fixing factory problems.


Well, this is getting pretty sidetracked. The original point I was trying to convey in my first counterpost was that GM need not hold back the reigns on the Camaro's performance, as that in the end will not be what sells the cars. That was never what was wrong with the Camaro, so why bother trying to fix something that is not broken.

C'mon, you should know better than anyone that PHR is an old-school muscle car magazine. Import features are few and far between.

There have also been stories of Pontiac's GTO entry into drifting. Is the GTO also lusted after by sport compact guys? :no:

Lusted? No. Respected? Yes. Thanks to Rhy and Pontiac Motorsports.

PHR also has a tilt towards Camaros. Johnny is a Camaro fanatic extrordinaire. Yet no shortage of Mustangs.


Seems I stirred up a hornets nest this morning. :D

Lusted? No. Respected? Yes. Thanks to Rhy and Pontiac Motorsports.

Respect by whom? Certainly not most import guys. Alot of them see this as unnecessary factory involvement, and loathe the car as a harbinger to the doom of the purity of their sport.

Come out to California, and I'd be glad to. :D

Well, seeing that many of us live nowhere near California (in this case on the opposite coastline), this is not going to be a satisfactory form of proof. I am sure you see plenty of new Mustangs down there, but who is to say the drivers of those Mustangs were import enthusiasts in the first place. There are still more than a few young domestic enthusiasts out there, despite what the Fast and the Furious would have you believe.

yes the camaro died because it was such a performer it didnt require tinkering.

I guess ill take my healthy dog out back and shoot him in the head, so i can go get a new one that i have to nurse back to health.

Um...Yea.

I can only tell you how much i missed my mustangs sloppy handling after i purchased my 94 Z, i missed it so much that ive never looked back again

:lol:

That was a pretty amusing analogy.

I'll make this quick because I have to get back down to Monterey (and I should have been gone a few hours ago..... damn internet! :lol: )


1. I still want some sort of validation that the new Mustang has won over any kind of performance import enthusiast at all, be they a shop or otherwise. I know too many import enthusiasts to count personally, and although things may be different in other areas, over in my neck of the woods the import crowds barely even picked up on the new Mustang at all. I also don't recall asking what tuners the Mustang had out of the box, because I am already well aware of who does what for the Mustang.

Just because something isn't happening in your backyard doesn't mean it isn't happening at all or even widespread. Every street gathering I've been to in the bay area, the LA area, the Las Vegas area, the San Diego area, and of course, the homebase in Monterey county have plenty of Mustangs and shops that specialize in Mustangs.

2. I don't recall glossing over anything. You mentioned Saleen and Roush, and I didn't really know where you were going with it while mentioning what effect the new Mustang was having on import tuners, so I interpreted it as best as I could. I personally wouldn't have brought up two American tuners in an arguement to prove what an impact the Mustang has had on the import community. By the way, that must be one hell of a computer tune, I didn't know Ford couldn't tune their new Mustangs for crap. The tunes for the sn95s never yielded power you could feel through a stock or almost stock engine.

a) You asked me what aftermarket tuners had a version of Mustang when it came out, and I told you. Nothing to misinterpret.

b) I brought up 2 American Tuners in response to your question about what aftermarket tuners had a version of the Mustang when it came out.

c) I said Mustang is winning over members of the Import Tuner crowd, which had nothing to do with (or was in the same sentence as) a) and c).

d) 5.0 SN95s responded as well as Fox cars did. Their revised suspension absorbed alot of the snap the Fox had. The early 4.6s I agree were crap (and what drove me to Camaros in the 1st place), by '99, Ford finally got their act together on the stock engines and started having parts available that were on par in quality and power potential with the 5.0.

e) It can be said that any computer program that releases alot of power means that the factory didn't tune their engines worth a damn. That can also apply to LT1s. ;)



Again, I ask. Where do you draw a basis for your conclusion that Mustangs have been winning over import fans at all? When was the last time you talked to a 16 year old high school import fan?

16 year olds don't buy new cars, but if we are talking about used, look at whos driving them now. Maybe things are differet where you are in PA (I'm from Pittsburgh, and I saw plenty of younger (as opposed to young) people in Mustangs at Keystone when I visited the parents.


That is something I would love to see. And what are your experiences as the Mustang being taken very seriously as a performance car? Because your magazine features them occasionally? The new Mustang has already started to become the car that a body shop will modify to show how stylish the shop can be, and then they all just seem to throw on a blower as an afterthought and are done with it. Have you ever talked to any of the younger guys that go to the street races constantly?

Are we talking up in Oakland, over in San Jose, or up in Santa Clara.

Monterey also has a pretty awesome street gathering of locals right around the time of the Road and Track Invitationals over at Laguna Seca, and when Cherry's Jublee takes over Monterey every September, it attracks every car nut from seemingly everywhere.

Which one do you mean?? :D


My point had nothing to do with sales numbers. It had everything to do with you labeling the Mustang as the hottest performance car out there, and my contrary opinion to your statement. My remark about Miatas was supposed to imply that the Miata has always been a fun little cheap car, but fun does not equate to performance. Would a Miata run with a Mustang GT on any performance level? Probably not. But a still don't agree that the new Mustang is anywhere near the hottest performance car out there. You can pick up a new Evo for around the same price as a GT, and the Evo will butcher it.

Mustang GT sales are running about 55% right now. That would put it around 90,000 cars. Look up the sales figures of the EVO.

Are they close?.......No.

Does the Evo offer the same bang for the buck?....No.
(the IX is $33K and the MR is a jawdropping $36K. Mustang GTs start at $25K... well equpted.)


Mitsu Evo is a $31,000



Well, this is getting pretty sidetracked. The original point I was trying to convey in my first counterpost was that GM need not hold back the reigns on the Camaro's performance, as that in the end will not be what sells the cars. That was never what was wrong with the Camaro, so why bother trying to fix something that is not broken.
Agreed on the sidetrack part.

At no point did I say Camaro should have less power. But to think power alone is what's wrong with the car without looking at what made Mustang so sucessful is also pretty off.

I guess it's where I live and the car folks I tend to relate to the most (www.chirpthird.com), becuase there is very little in Guy's opening post that I agree with.

I ordered the SS 'vert in 1999 because as "World of Wheels", a great Canadian auto rag, put it, the Camaro was "nostalgia with a warranty". I fully expected to keep it stock and enjoy it's exceptional performance, economy, and looks. I did that, but also fell victim to the mod bug, then autox, then driving schools, to this date culminating in the addition of 2 hardtops to the mix.

IMO the 4th gen will go down in history as one of the best kept performance value secrets in automotive history.

Why the didn't sell in the required numbers? I think Charlie nailed that in his post.

I I don't believe the 4th gen failed because of it's performance....it failed because it offered nothing more than that performance.

Sometimes I feel like a broken record, 'cause I know I've said this before....

I don't believe the 4th gen failed because of it's performance....it failed because it offered nothing more than that performance.

Ask yourself these questions:
Other than people on this board...

1) How many people do you know who felt the 4th gen was drop dead gorgeous?

2) How many people do you know who felt the 4th gen was the right size?

3) How many people do you know who found the 4th gen's interior/ergonomics/driving position to be "just right"?

4) How many people do you know who felt the 4th gen had an appealing model line-up?

5) And how many people do you know who answered positively to questions 1-4, who actually bought new?

As far as I'm concerned...performance was the 4th gen's ONE saving grace.

BTW, good thread Guy...it's been slow around here. ;) yes to 1-4 no to 5BECAUSE THE DEALER DIDN"T WANT TO SELL ME ONE!


actual conversation (nov.2000)
ME: how much for a new Z28?
DEALER: you don't want one of those because they are too much.

Well, seeing that many of us live nowhere near California (in this case on the opposite coastline), this is not going to be a satisfactory form of proof. I am sure you see plenty of new Mustangs down there, but who is to say the drivers of those Mustangs were import enthusiasts in the first place...

You're right.

I just ONLY live here. :rolleyes: :no:



I guess ill take my healthy dog out back and shoot him in the head, so i can go get a new one that i have to nurse back to health.


Really?

I'm going to take mines in the back and shoot him in the head so I can get one that's self feeding, self grooming, and I never have to walk him. ;)

That's true about Mustang, but WHY!!!!????

It seems Ford continuously fuels the Mustang fire for it's enthusiasts. Camaro? Short of our pal RP, .................not much.

MAYBE THAT'S THE REASON THEY DIDN'T SELL you know you can't sell a car that has no advertising and not on the dealers lots but what do i know i'm just a consumer.

RussStang, we live in the same town, and the import people that i know and rarely but somtimes hang out with and talk too, They all seem to like the new mustang, because its "Old School" almost every ricer ive ever talked to hates americans cars of today, but like and respect the cars from the 60's. since the new stang looks like its from the 60's, they seem to like it.

Wanted to say, good thread and alot of great debate going on here.

Nice to get break the monotony every once in awhile, and get some good discussion going on.

Kind of like poking around a hornet's nest just to see what will happen.... ;)

BTW: I'll probally be off this thread for a week, so don't go spreading anymore rumors that I've been kidnapped by GM execs in Black Suburbans, and is being probed and brainwashed like some of you did earlier this year. :lol:

I'd like to thank ya'll (especially Guy) for the entertainment here. :)

Somebody mentioned a Mustang sells "because it is a Mustang". There is probably some truth to that - though I wonder how many recent Mustang owners would still be Mustang owners if the Probe had been the Mustang some 15+ years ago? Also, I would suggest that performance is indeed a very big part of the Mustang Formula. For evidence, I offer FoMoCo support of the following:

National Mustang Racer's Association
Fun Ford Weekend
World Ford Challenge

Is there a National WRX Racer's Association? Fun Evo Weekend? World Supra Challenge? Perhaps there is - I don't pretend to know the import crowd. There are indeed National-level Import race organizations that cater to those cars in general.

Some F-body folks have tried to jumpstart organizations like the above (I've even helped on a couple), but sadly, none have been really successful yet.

The 4th gen was DOG UGLY. That's why it didn't sell.

And it didnt' help the 3rd gens were flat out sexy...

When I bought my '91 Mustang GT, I did test drive the Camaro, and the Firebird. Even after I had my Mustang, I drove the 93+ Camaro, as a point of comparison, when I was thinking of trading up to the '94+.

These are my thoughts on the car.

First off, my Mustang was a daily driver. Thus, while I wanted it to be fun, it also had to be easy to live with, on a daily basis. I didn't want to be falling into the seat............. trying to climb out when my 30 foot long door couldn't be opened fully.............. trying to peer over 20 feet of dash............... trying to mod an engine that was halfway under the cowl............. or playing toss it into the corners in a car that was way too big for the size of the interior (it made the Mustang look small by comparison).

Say what you may about performance........... but lets be honest here, the people who post here are performance people. If a new Mustang GT had 500hp stock, and cost $30K, people would say............ why not 550hp and $25K. Its just the way we are. Yet, with the Mustang, I was willing to give up some of that initial performance, for the promise of a car that was easy to live with. I know that the Mustang aftermarket was huge........... so I could make the car anything I wanted it to be. However, when driving to and from work, the compromises to drive the Camaro/Firebird were just to great............... in the trade-off for the extra performance.

Most people do not regularly go to the quarter mile. Most people do not regularly SCCA race their cars. Most people do not street race their cars. Most people rarely even floor their cars. Most people drive from point a to point b in their cars. If the car has the ability to be fun, when they ask it to be.............. and puts a smile on their face, as they approach it in the parking lot............. they are pretty happy.

BTW, if anyone tries to play the "your a girl, you wouldn't understand" card, I will find you............... and pull your scrotum over your head. :D

Just a note to all you wussies that say Camaros are hard to mod.........bull hockey!!

I've modded a ton of them in EVERY possible manner...hell, we even pull the engine and tranny out the top just like I do my 1969............bunch of wussies.........d&r........;)

Hell, I didn't have my C5 home a week before the mods began.............(uh...maybe it's me ?!?! )

Guy - I pretty much agree with u on all points . The one thing I dont really understand is your persistence to say you havent been able to customize your camaro's in the way you could your fox bodies . Maybe Im just not understanding you right . Every mod you listed done to one of your stangs , you could have done to both your LT1 and LS1 Z's . The 4th gen aftermarket is every bit as monsterous as the Fox and SN-95 aftermarkets in every aspect ....from engine to suspension , to appearence . The only thing I will give you on the aftermarket issue is the Mustang body has always been much more flexible in changing its appearence . To where as the F cars I dont think have ever taken well to apperence mods short of a hood , rims and paint options .

When the 4th gens came out , I remember there were several tuner cars within the first year . By 94 there was Camaro ZR28 from LG motorsports , A complete turn key car from Doug Rippe Motorsports , the TPIS ZZ28 , Complete turnkey cars from Lingenfelter , Hennesy , MTI , Car Pro Motorsports , Modern Musclecar , Callaway ect ect ect ect ect . Lets not forget the last few years with the Berger cars , and the ZL1 . The reason I dont think any of them were very prominent directly relatated to the Camaro's limited appeal outside of hardcore enthusists. If its not that then I dunno what the hell it was because 05 Mustang type aftermarket has been there since the begining on the 4th gens and to this day continues to grow even though the cars have been dead for 3 years now . The parts are there to make a 4th gen absolutely anything you want it to be from a 7 sec LSx powered drag car ( stock style suspension , 10" tire LS1 based f-bodies have made it there ) , to all out showcar , street strip , autoX'er ...anything man :)

The Mustang sold with the underpowered Mustang engine, but if the Camaro had the same engine instead of the LT1/LS1, it would have tanked, BIG TIME.

You guys are arguing the same the same thing with different wording, and WERM said it the best. The Camaro was the better sports car than the Mustang, and it sold like a sports car does. The Mustang was the more practical sporty car, and it sold more because most people are looking for something reasonably practical that looks good, it is all about practicality and image. I wonder, how many people bought a 1 or 2 year old Corvette rather than purchase a new SS Camaro? The Vette was only slightly less practical, more comfortable, had better performance, has a better image. Simply put, the Camaro was shooting to close to Corvette territory, not in performance (it was fine in that category) but in practicality. I can't wait for the 5th Gen :D .

David

yes to 1-4 no to 5BECAUSE THE DEALER DIDN"T WANT TO SELL ME ONE!


actual conversation (nov.2000)
ME: how much for a new Z28?
DEALER: you don't want one of those because they are too much.
I ran into a little of that issue myself. The only salesperson that did want to sell me one told me about his 120 mph excursion in the particular car in a race with a mustang. Then latar at the same dealership I saw one of the other salespeople leaving in said car and he was SMOKING! Needless to say that really ticked me off and I ended up buying a used 99.

On another note I have to agree that the performance definately had nothing to do with the failure of the 4th gen. Seating position (great for performance enthusiasts bad for mid life crisis and short skirts) price (great performance bargain but still quite an investment) and lack of aftermarket support, little to no advertising, and poor dealerships (this one also contributes to GM's over all problems) all contributed to the 4th gen's poor sales.

Also the poor aftermarket support was not due to the cars already stellar performace (as some would suggest). This can be almost a catch 22 situation where there can't be a large aftermarket if the car doesn't sell particularly well. I would be curious to see the difference in numbers of enthusiasts (who might modify their cars) sales of the Mustang versus the Camaro. This would probalby disprove my theory on the aftermarket issue :)

great original post by guionM as usuall but I disagree with a few things this time :D

Bring on the fifth gen

You guys are arguing the same the same thing with different wording, and WERM said it the best. The Camaro was the better sports car than the Mustang, and it sold like a sports car does. The Mustang was the more practical sporty car, and it sold more because most people are looking for something reasonably practical that looks good, it is all about practicality and image. I wonder, how many people bought a 1 or 2 year old Corvette rather than purchase a new SS Camaro? The Vette was only slightly less practical, more comfortable, had better performance, has a better image. Simply put, the Camaro was shooting to close to Corvette territory, not in performance (it was fine in that category) but in practicality. I can't wait for the 5th Gen :D .

David
Well put.

again i think it sells on name plate alone, not to count (yes here i go again) nagging teenagers who push mom and pops to the lots for ass|wow|wanna be cool factor, and the new stylings have only fueled this more.

Hopefully the general will answer back, and this time with a loud booming voice.


I know what you're saying but I give the buyer more credit. I think the buyer is far too intelligent and fastidious today than to just buy on nameplate alone. Although still strong, I don't think tradition today is as strong as it used to be. If a buyer is looking for a Stang, surely he/she would consider what else is out there in the market that comes close to filling the needs?

Anyway, I just want to give credit to the guys here who have actually owned both Mustang and Camaro. It's always great to read non-partisan material from people who GM would logically target. That's why I love this forum, you guys tell it like it is. And btw, thanks also for the entertainment... it never gets dull or boring here! :D

Also the poor aftermarket support was not due to the cars already stellar performace (as some would suggest). This can be almost a catch 22 situation where there can't be a large aftermarket if the car doesn't sell particularly well. I would be curious to see the difference in numbers of enthusiasts (who might modify their cars) sales of the Mustang versus the Camaro. This would probalby disprove my theory on the aftermarket issue :)
Bring on the fifth gen

Only problem with that comment is the 4th gen F-bodies aftermarket is and has been extremely huge !!!!!!!!!!!!! You could build a 4th gen Camaro or Firebird with the only the body itself being left as the sole original piece and in the process have several different suppliers to choose from for any given part . So lets leave the issue with the car itself ;)

Agreed on the 5th gen :)

OK...only read thru the first page.

Good points, but I don't think it's nearly that simple.

A couple of thoughts:

The number one reason people buy a car in this segment is "Head turning style"....which, I think the Fcars had.....the problem is that they had the same essential look for over 10 years...........that's a problem!

No question that the seating position is a turnoff to those who aren't into a low-slung car. There's no question that the 4th gen Camaro was designed to own the track. And I think it proved that point to this very day. That also means it will limit the number of people who desire such a car.

(Insert question here: let's see a show of hands who want the Camaro to appeal to a wider audience even if it means it compromises the handling?)

While there's no question that the Mustang has more performance mods available to it, I'm no so sure the 4th gen has none........far from it. I'm always amused that we could build 6 black SSs.......and one year from the date of manufacturer, the chances are they've been personalized to the person's liking. Moreover, I travel and meet with enthusiasts constantly...and I can tell you that it's rare that I see a 4th gen without mods.

I think there was a lot of damage done to the car internally.....but Mr. Zarella did it in for good. It's not easy to work on the platform when the ad budget has been taken away.......and the little amount of money for yearly updates is a small fraction of what it should be. That said, I think some will tell you that we did quite a job considering very little funds.....

The Mustang, on the other hand, benefitted from two-three year updates in terms of sheetmetal/interiors/wheels/etc. (trust me, if the Fcar team had that kind of money...........)

Now.....I'm not trying to make excuses.....but only to point out some facts.

By the way....I don't agree with the comment about driving position. The Fcar driving position in terms of visual scanning and placement of gearshift, etc. is, in my opinion...and the opinions of many experts, far superior to that of the Mustang. The problem is that it DOES sit quite a bit lower.......and that's intimidating to many.

Gotta run now..........meeting friends for dinner.....but I'll read the entire thread later and put in a few more cents........

One other thing.........and I've mentioned this before.........GM (fortunately or unfortunately, depending on the perspective you have) offered the customer a much wider choice of coupes. Alison-Fisher surveys show that in many many cases, the Mustang owner's second choice was not Camaro......rather, it was the Grand Am or the Z24 Cavalier. Now, there are many reasons for that...one of them is that Ford Motor Company only gave you four choices in 2001/2002......Mustang, ZX2, Cougar, or Focus

Chevy alone had four entries...........plus the other GM divisions..and as a result, GM outsold Ford by well over 2 to 1 in the 2-door markets..........now.......in this day and age, that isn't a good thing when you consider the development and marketing costs........it was a good thing years ago........not today.

There is overlap between Mustang and Camaro....but the Mustang without question, appeals to a wider audience -- and I think it's safe to say that the Mustang appeals (also) to people who don't care anything about performance...they want the style.

The real question is: where do we go from here?

As a Camaro enthusiast, I want the new Camaro to own the track.....but I also realize that it has to overcome some of the shortcomings that turned people off.......MOREOVER......the lifecycle MUST be managed and funds have to be available to do that......and the lifecycle can't last for 10 years ...or even 5 years.....without appearance changes.

I also believe the Camaro must have more 'do it yourself' mods.....and the best kind of mods are the ones you can buy that are already validated and won't invalidate the warranty, yet are affordable to the younger buyer.

I think we all have ideas of how the car needs to be.......but I can tell you this......there's a lot at stake. The days of a manufacturer 'getting it wrong' are long gone.

One last thought.......I don't believe the 4th gen cars, overall, have a lot to apologize for.

Good points RP :) .

I also believe the Camaro must have more 'do it yourself' mods.....and the best kind of mods are the ones you can buy that are already validated and won't invalidate the warranty, yet are affordable to the younger buyer.

I strongly agree with this statement. This would definitely get a lot of attention :D .

David

The shifter position on the F-body was indeed far better than the Mustang. Other than that, I much prefer the seating position, visibility (sorry - it was much better with the Mustang), and general day-to-day ease of use of the SN95 Mustang over the 4th Gen F-body.

As an FYI....I owned a 98 Cobra, 99 T/A, and 99 Cobra (in that order) within the span of a bit over a year, so I at least have some experience to base my conclusions on.

I have yet to talk to someone that disliked the looks of the '98 + T/A and WS6 and Firehawk. I'm 22 years old and they are my favorite cars evaaaar. The 5th gen would have to be really bad-@ss to make me consider selling my car for a new one. And have to be really sweet to make me want to buy one for a cheaper C5 Z06.

TONY

The real question is: where do we go from here?


Not that everyone agrees, but hey, if it were up to me, it'd be a hatchback about the same size and weight as an SN95 Mustang, but with decent ergonomics(!), better packaging, an IRS, and of course, the big ol' honkin' V8 and 6-speed manual. Maybe throw in a targa top. I'd also throw on some fender flares (a highly underutilized styling element).

BTW, while I like the looks of the current mustang, I still think it is getting dangerously close to the 1971 model...just too darn big for its time...but maybe it's just me since they are still selling the snot out of them...

The only concession I would accept right up front is to design the car in a way that it gets enough sales to sustain itself and be sucessful. I know it sounds like a real brainstorm, but after the 4th gen....

If GM needs it to sell 75,000 to stick around, and you have the option of making it a newer version of the 4th gen and sell 40k, or you can make it more Mustang like and sell 80k, then I think you make it more Mustang like. And if that means you lose some handling....then thats the price you pay. Now I don't really have any concerns about the GM team being able to pull off such a car, it's too easy to forget that the 4th gen was already cobbled together from a great deal of 3rd gen platform, which was originally designed waaaaay back in the late 70's and early 80's. Our standards have been artificially set too low based on the ancient architecture of the 4th gen. I have owned a few of the best GM cars to come out recently, including the CTS, and I can tell you, that for those of you that haven't driven a modern GM platform...there simply is no comparison in terms of feel, comfort, and confidence instilled in the driver. The C5 would corner harder, but the CTS was just magic as a complete package. I have no worries that GM will create a similar feeling for the Camaro, while addressing some of the issues which kept certain types of buyers away. 3 months and counting...

(Insert question here: let's see a show of hands who want the Camaro to appeal to a wider audience even if it means it compromises the handling?)

Mine is up. As long as you promise to be able to again state that, "A Camaro SS with the ### suspension is faster than a base Corvette around Spring Mountain Motorsports Park." :D

(Insert question here: let's see a show of hands who want the Camaro to appeal to a wider audience even if it means it compromises the handling?)


Absolutely not, the Camaro should never slump to the Rustang's level :no:



I think there was a lot of damage done to the car internally.....but Mr. Zarella did it in for good. It's not easy to work on the platform when the ad budget has been taken away.......and the little amount of money for yearly updates is a small fraction of what it should be. That said, I think some will tell you that we did quite a job considering very little funds.....


I personally feel a great job was done with the car. You guys managed to give enthusiasts an awesome performance car while working with a minimalist budget. It's unfourtunate that upper management screwed up, but all things considered an excelent job was done with the car.


By the way....I don't agree with the comment about driving position. The Fcar driving position in terms of visual scanning and placement of gearshift, etc. is, in my opinion...and the opinions of many experts, far superior to that of the Mustang.


You got that right about ergonomics and everything. It's funny that a car that was so driver oriented managed to turn so many off. I say, sucks for them. If someone wants to drive a car where you're comming out of your seat to grab third gear, good for them. I love the seating postion/ergonomics in my Camaro and really have no complaints about it. It feels like it was designed to be driven in. (The dash was admittedly very long, but that's just a little bad mixed in with a ton of good...It took about 10 minutes to get used to and now I love it ) Mustangs do just not feel right. They feel very pedestrian because you sit up high. They don't feel sporty and they don't inspire confidence when driving hard. They also don't look nearly as good as low slung cars like Camaros, Firebirds, Corvettes and Vipers. They are like the red-headed step child of American performance cars. I can say, I ask people all the time which car they prefer, (my '97 Z/28 or my friend's '99 GT or just Mustangs in general)...Most guys say my Camaro. Girls on the other hand are even quicker to say that they like Camaro...Usually do to the feel of the car, the look, etc. They generally comment that Camaros are much more sexy ;) :D


The problem is that it DOES sit quite a bit lower.......and that's intimidating to many.


Many times the people it intimidates are those who aren't into performance cars or driving in the first place, (That low driving position is nice because you can actually work the pedals easily and heel toe w/o hitting your knees on the steering wheel or dash), They want to sit up nice and high in their (*insert generic, boring family sedan type thing), because it makes them feel confident and important. They are the same people who sit so far foward in their cars that if they ever got into an accident, their head would be through the windshield before the seatbelt had a chance to lock up :lol: Basically, for the most part, most performance cars are low-slung, (exceptions being STI's and Evo's...I've been in WRX before and my dad has an '05 2.5 rs and the driving postion is so high you feel like your in a small pickup...not cool :shrug: ), So if you've actually driven other performance cars, driving a Camaro shouldn't be a very odd feeling. If a low driving postion does scare people off, then it's probably safe to assume they aren't very confident in their driving abilities and probably shouldn't be behind the wheel of such a car anyway :shrug:

The real question is: where do we go from here?


See my previous post :) ...I wouldn't mind an IRS setup though if it could be done in a modern, lightweight, and inexpensive way :rolleyes:


I also believe the Camaro must have more 'do it yourself' mods.....and the best kind of mods are the ones you can buy that are already validated and won't invalidate the warranty, yet are affordable to the younger buyer.


That would be very cool. I'm all for being able to mod your car the way you want...And not voiding the warranty :D Affordability of these parts is also key...The only thing though is it seems like most of the stuff, (take for example Ford Racing parts), is not as good as other aftermarket stuff that is availible. Generally, for every manufacturer's performance part there are always a few from the aftermarket guys that get the job done better for only a bit more money. Although, if offering that sort of stuff helps sales than so be it, it seems to be working for Scion and the new Stang.


One last thought.......I don't believe the 4th gen cars, overall, have a lot to apologize for.

No, they don't. Really my only complaints would concern build quality. They definetly could have been put together better. Also, I've never been in a factory 1LE car or a bilstein level 2 car, but my stock Z/28's suspension is just way to soft. It could have been more aggressive from the factory.

^ you hit the nail on the head with that post :bow: also i would say price also killed the camaro, i remember in the spring of 03 in the local paper they had a 2002 V6 camaro for sale for 30k and a ford dealer had a 2003 mustang GT for 28k-now which would you buy? the only option on the stang that the camaro had was t-tops which you couldn't get anyway.

Message to GM: I want a new Camaro that has the proportions of a 69!

(sorry, just had to follow up on your sig above :) )

NOOOO, lol ;) Honestly, it would be a major turnoff for me if that were to happen. It would probably throw me into an irreversible depression :shock: :lol:

Good thread, good debates. But, I have to mention one thing no has has seemed to talk about concerning the 4th Gens demise. That would be the shift in demographics to trucks during the 90s. To me, that was the biggest factor. Carry on...

Agreed on the sidetrack part.


I think we have misinterpreted each other to the point that I am not sure what I am trying to argue over anymore. Several of the points I have tried to convey over and over are being misunderstood, and I am sure you are feeling the same way about my understanding of your posts. I just want to see the new Camaro perform as well as it possibly can.

I guess it's where I live and the car folks I tend to relate to the most (www.chirpthird.com), becuase there is very little in Guy's opening post that I agree with.


Not, its not just where you live, its apparently where both of us live.

BTW, if anyone tries to play the "your a girl, you wouldn't understand" card, I will find you............... and pull your scrotum over your head. :D
Hmmmm, after that quote, I'm either scared to death of you...or strangely attracted :D

You're right.
I just ONLY live here. :rolleyes: :no:



Sorry to beat a dead horse, but I have to bring to light that you still show no actual proof of the migration of import enthusiasts to the new Mustang, besides your own personal experience. Preaching your own experiences as gospel is something that obviously more than just myself in this post find incorrect.

....So if you've actually driven other performance cars, driving a Camaro shouldn't be a very odd feeling. If a low driving postion does scare people off, then it's probably safe to assume they aren't very confident in their driving abilities and probably shouldn't be behind the wheel of such a car anyway :shrug:
Wanna compare driving resume's? How about number of Mustangs and number of F-bodies owned, driven, and raced?

You're welcome to your opinion, but you might want to figure out your place in the food chain.

RussStang, we live in the same town, and the import people that i know and rarely but somtimes hang out with and talk too, They all seem to like the new mustang, because its "Old School" almost every ricer ive ever talked to hates americans cars of today, but like and respect the cars from the 60's. since the new stang looks like its from the 60's, they seem to like it.

Really, well I have spent almost 2 years at the Automotive Training Center, and have been around nothing but real import enthusiasts, at not just guys who think they know what they are talking about. No one who has b16s or sr20s or 2jzs on the brain that I have talked to gave much of a thought to the new Mustang. The same goes for most of the UTI guys around here as well. I guess I have spent too much time around more than just mild enthusiasts.

BTW, if anyone tries to play the "your a girl, you wouldn't understand" card, I will find you............... and pull your scrotum over your head. :D


Your a girl, you wouldn't understand.

(Just wanted to see if the proposed threat is even possible :D )

One last thought.......I don't believe the 4th gen cars, overall, have a lot to apologize for.

And I completely agree with you there.


*Edit- sorry for taken up page 5 with so many small posts, by the time I had come back from watching the Eagles game this thread had exploded, and it is kind of hard to manage all of it in one post reply.

Come out to California, and I'd be glad to. :D

Hmm...I live in Socal. I don't see any "import tuner mustangs". The only reason there is a Mustang in Formula D is to draw more domestic driven people to the sport...and NOT because all the import kiddies think it's cool...purely marketing. :think: ™

Mustang GT sales are running about 55% right now. That would put it around 90,000 cars. Look up the sales figures of the EVO.

Are they close?.......No.

Does the Evo offer the same bang for the buck?....No.
(the IX is $33K and the MR is a jawdropping $36K. Mustang GTs start at $25K... well equpted.)


Mitsu Evo is a $31,000

Guy...none of this points to the Mustang "winning over" mass amounts of people in the import tuner crowd. These sales figures would have also applied in, say, 2002. I don't have the numbers in front of me obviously, but if I were a betting man I'd say the average age of a Mustang GT buyer has not changed between the SN95 model and the '05. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see an even slightly increased median age, as the retro styling especially pulls on the heartstrings of all the aging baby boomers.

Let's call the new Mustang exactly what it is...a rip-roaring success in most circles...but a car that doesn't translate well to sport compact guys. Why should it? A Honda Civic is not in the same class as an American pony car.

Wanna compare driving resume's? How about number of Mustangs and number of F-bodies owned, driven, and raced?

You're welcome to your opinion, but you might want to figure out your place in the food chain.

Wow, I think I just struck a nerve :eek: ...No, I wouldn't want to compare resumes with you...I'd be rather embarressed, lol ;) I didn't mean to step on any toes or piss anyone off with that post, I'm sorry if I did. I was just trying to say that I have a hard time understanding how someone could be so affected by sitting low in a car. Maybe I could have put it in a bit less abrasive terms than I did, I'll try to watch that from now on.

Bob, I didn't mean that post to be a personal attack against you, I'm sorry if you felt that way. I think your Cobra is bada$$, the '03-'04 Cobras are on the top of my list of favorite cars...Even if they are a Mustang :p

Your a girl, you wouldn't understand.

(Just wanted to see if the proposed threat is even possible :D )

You did it !!!!!

You better watch out, the next time I am in PA. :D

One last thought.......I don't believe the 4th gen cars, overall, have a lot to apologize for.


I agree.... My "old, outdated" Camaro did a good job at putting a new 2005 Mustang GT in its place. :cool:

great thread...now let me jump in(spent the weekend playing soul caliber 3 with my girl and her dad :cool: )

yes to 1-4 no to 5BECAUSE THE DEALER DIDN"T WANT TO SELL ME ONE!


actual conversation (nov.2000)
ME: how much for a new Z28?
DEALER: you don't want one of those because they are too much.


same thing happened to me. 1999, went to look at an SS. did the introduction thing with the salesman, then he asks me how old i am(i was 20) so i tell him. i ask him about the SS in the showroom and he says "that's too much car for you , maybe a Cavalier might be more what you're looking for" :mad: keep in mind, i'd been drag racing(legally) since i turned 17 and had a close to 400 plus, 10.5 tire Camaro at that point, and had about $20K to put down on the car. i turned around and walked out. went to the next dealer and proceeded to get pushed towards something else again. needless to say i got a 93 Z28 from the local FORD dealer the next day. and they were trying to get me into a Mustang GT!!!!!!

GM dealers had this bad habit of not wanting to sell Fbods to anyone under the age of 30 around me, while the Ford dealers would go out of their way to get you into whatever you wanted.


You did it !!!!!

You better watch out, the next time I am in PA. :D


let me know when this is happening, i don't live that far away and i got a nice video cam :D

Only problem with that comment is the 4th gen F-bodies aftermarket is and has been extremely huge !!!!!!!!!!!!! You could build a 4th gen Camaro or Firebird with the only the body itself being left as the sole original piece and in the process have several different suppliers to choose from for any given part . So lets leave the issue with the car itself ;)

Agreed on the 5th gen :)
You have me there. I have all of the things I want to do to my 99 available to me if I had the funds. I guess the point of view that I was trying to make was most people feel that there is not much you can do with the body. I personally woudn't change anything but items such as the spoiler (can be changed but the design of the replacement is restricted by the integration of the spoiler into the original rear deck) and hood (does it really get any better than the SS hood? :cool: ) have limited replacements available on the aftermarket.

The best thing about the 4th gens were the free mods :metal: :thumb:

The shifter position on the F-body was indeed far better than the Mustang. Other than that, I much prefer the seating position, visibility (sorry - it was much better with the Mustang), and general day-to-day ease of use of the SN95 Mustang over the 4th Gen F-body.

As an FYI....I owned a 98 Cobra, 99 T/A, and 99 Cobra (in that order) within the span of a bit over a year, so I at least have some experience to base my conclusions on.
Yeah the shifter position sucked in the mustang. That was my old roomate's major complaint for his car (that and he regularly lost to me ;) ). He preferred the seating position in my car but I don't think it was a big deal to him. By the way, He originally wanted a 99 Trans Am but bought the mustang because it was cheaper. I really like the styling of the Trans Am a little better than the Camaro and almost bought a 2001 formula firehawk but in the end I am just a Camaro guy :cz28: .

Sorry to beat a dead horse, but I have to bring to light that you still show no actual proof of the migration of import enthusiasts to the new Mustang, besides your own personal experience. Preaching your own experiences as gospel is something that obviously more than just myself in this post find incorrect.
My brother wants to sell his 89 turbo supra, and his 97 accord (he already sold his 68 beatle) all to get a new mustang. The kid has been anti-American cars for years, since he was 14... I have tried and tried to get him to look at f-bodies, and he has always said something stupid like hondas and toyotas can be just as fast for just as cheap, and they will last longer... So i gave up. Well now he absolutely loves the new mustang. All he has ever done is dump money into his supra and accord, and now he is willing to get rid of both and get a mustang. Maybe it is a California thing, but it is happening around here.

let me know when this is happening, i don't live that far away and i got a nice video cam :D

Don't worry. You would know it is happening when you hear my blood curdling over there in Jersey.

My brother wants to sell his 89 turbo supra, and his 97 accord (he already sold his 68 beatle) all to get a new mustang. The kid has been anti-American cars for years, since he was 14... I have tried and tried to get him to look at f-bodies, and he has always said something stupid like hondas and toyotas can be just as fast for just as cheap, and they will last longer... So i gave up. Well now he absolutely loves the new mustang. All he has ever done is dump money into his supra and accord, and now he is willing to get rid of both and get a mustang. Maybe it is a California thing, but it is happening around here.

Weird stuff like that happens everywhere. I know someone who fell in love with an F-Body after driving it, and this is someone who owned a WRX. This kind of stuff doesn't necesarrily corelate to the Mustang grabbing hordes over import owners over to the dar side. Besides, an 05 GT is a huge step up form an 89 Turbo Supra, those things are toilets on wheels.

The driving position on the 4th gen fbodies is far better than the SN95 Mustang IMO. Having recently test driven a GTO, I can say it is very similar to the SN95, although the engineers at Holden made it so you could move the seat back to a comfortable position that is very reminiscent of the 4th gen fbodies. Brilliant move IMO.

Besides, an 05 GT is a huge step up form an 89 Turbo Supra, those things are toilets on wheels.

Really? I'd take a Mk3 Supra Turbo over an 05 GT anyday, if I HAD to keep the car. The 7mgte is a very capable motor, and has alot of potential, you just have to get rid of the ****ty stock headgasket, lol.

Look in the top 10 and see how many are running 500+hp on stock internals.

7MPower (http://www.7mpower.com/members.shtml)

Edit- I just noticed, there are only like two in the top 10 running that much power stock, but the point remains, we all know how inaccurate those kind of lists are, and we can see how badass those motors are anyways.

Well those cars might be junk. But for someone to invest a ton of time and money into one, and love the car as much as he has, now be willing to get rid of it says something about the car he is willing to get rid of it for. It is pulling him away from a car that he has spent a lot of time and money on. You tried to make it seem like GuionM was way off base by saying that the mustang is getting import buyers to buy mustangs, because he doesn't have any hard evidence. Well I doubt there is any compiled data on the subject, but in my observations it has. I can't say if it is anymore so than any other cars like the charger, but I would think so.

I would like to see at least one import shop that starting working on Mustangs when the new one came out. The new Mustang may be selling really well, but it really isn't taken all that seriously in the performance world. There really isn't that much difference in the eyes of an import lover between the old one and the new one. Almost the same identical engine, and heavier than the old model. The new Mustang gets recieved on this board like it is part of some sort of automotive renaissance, but it isn't destroying peoples perceptions of what the Mustang has been and still is, especially with the "tuner" crowd.

I don't know. I do moderating duties on a large import board (their future vehicle section), and imo the new mustang has been very well recieved overall. There's a lot less negetitivty and more positive posts when it does come up in threads vs the sn95 (which was always ripped on). It also gets alot more love than either Cobalt SS, Focus SVT, or SRT4 neon.

I don't know anything about the buyers (doubt they're trading their imports in by the thousands), but i do know that it is much better recieved than most other mainstream domestics. I would say that the general attitude is a lot more positive.

Well those cars might be junk. But for someone to invest a ton of time and money into one, and love the car as much as he has, now be willing to get rid of it says something about the car he is willing to get rid of it for. It is pulling him away from a car that he has spent a lot of time and money on. You tried to make it seem like GuionM was way off base by saying that the mustang is getting import buyers to buy mustangs, because he doesn't have any hard evidence. Well I doubt there is any compiled data on the subject, but in my observations it has. I can't say if it is anymore so than any other cars like the charger, but I would think so.

I don't know if we are all the same wavelength. I am not talking about some hobby import enthusiasts, the Mustang may very well draw a few of them over to it's side. I am talking about the much more hardcore import enthusiasts, and I have yet to meet one in the real world (internet forums are a often a poor reflection of reality) who thought the car was some huge automotive performance revolution. Sorry, I am still not buying that. And saying the new Mustang may have drawn some import drivers over to it's side, one must acknowledge that it is very possible cars like the 350z, etc, could have stolen many domestic enthusiasts to the "import" world. That is too difficult a question to verify, due to the fact there is no real way to gain accurate data on it. I still stand by my point though, there is very little commotion in the real import enthusiast world over the new Mustang. Just pick up and read a few import magazines, they don't seem to care.

Really? I'd take a Mk3 Supra Turbo over an 05 GT anyday, if I HAD to keep the car. The 7mgte is a very capable motor, and has alot of potential, you just have to get rid of the ****ty stock headgasket, lol.

Look in the top 10 and see how many are running 500+hp on stock internals.

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Edit- I just noticed, there are only like two in the top 10 running that much power stock, but the point remains, we all know how inaccurate those kind of lists are, and we can see how badass those motors are anyways.

I am not a fan of the 1JZ engine. I know too many guys who have either had problems or know people who have had problems with those engines at high hp levels. Their propensity for head gasket problems especially at elevated boost levels would get old fast. The 2JZ, on the other hand, is an engine I have nothing but praise for.

I am not a fan of the 1JZ engine. I know too many guys who have either had problems or know people who have had problems with those engines at high hp levels. Their propensity for head gasket problems especially at elevated boost levels would get old fast. The 2JZ, on the other hand, is an engine I have nothing but praise for.

LMAO...

The 1JZGTTE is a completely different motor than the 7MGTE offered in the US Supra Turbos. I believe HKS makes a metal headgasket that is supposed to virtually eliminate that problem.

;)

LMAO...

The 1JZGTTE is a completely different motor than the 7MGTE offered in the US Supra Turbos. I believe HKS makes a metal headgasket that is supposed to virtually eliminate that problem.

;)

What was the 1JZ used in then? I have always heard guys calling it the 1JZ in the MkIIIs.

*Edit - alittle researching on my own, and I have found that indeed, the 1JZ is not in the US MkIIIs. I guess my disdain is for the 7MGTE that comes in the MkIIIs.

No biggie, for a long time I referred to the mk3 supra turbo motor as the 1jz...Until someone finally corrected me. ;)

Not that I know anything about the 1jz, but I believe it was used in foreign mk3 supras and a couple lexus models.

I'm pretty sure my brothers car has the motor out of a mk3 from japan.

But is there anything new on the threads title? I don't care about supras, I want Camaro info! Anyone have any thoughts on that?

(Insert question here: let's see a show of hands who want the Camaro to appeal to a wider audience even if it means it compromises the handling?)


Sort of a catch 22. I don't think we want to give anything up. However, to keep the car in production I think a lot of us will. Just have the parts available to get us where we want to be.

I love the seating position and ergonmics of my 4th gen. I sat in a SN95 car recently; and the door was touching my shoulder, it sat up to straight, and I won't even comment on the shifter.

I may be an exception though seeing as I think a cammed, true-dual, heavy clutched, geared, big sway bar, rod end suspended car is just dandy. :D

(Insert question here: let's see a show of hands who want the Camaro to appeal to a wider audience even if it means it compromises the handling?)

I think it can cater both to a wider audience and still not give up too much in the handling department.

The reason it came off as a bit of a compromise on the 4th gens was because the z28 and SS were essentially the same cars performance wise. That's why more variety was needed.

You look at the the Mustang, and you can see that the GT is relatively tame/docile v8 pony car for the masses, but the Mach, Cobra, and to some degree the Cobra R's where more hardcore fo