I use purolators, but snagged a Fram last oil change.

My car mainly had dealership oil changes up till about 100k, My car has a deal with free lifetime oil changes.

I use Valvoline Max Life.


Btw the cheapest place to buy oil is Walmart. They usually have the main brands, and have always had mobil 1

 

Any oil company will tell you their oil is the best...only one of them is telling the truth. Majority doesn't always mean the better. Why do more factory's use Mobil 1? is it because its better, or because Mobil 1 shelled out millions upon millions of dollars to have factories sign off on it, so that people like you will think its the best thing since individually wrapped cheese slices.

Many years ago there was a big drive on running Teflon in the engine. People saw what teflon did to frying pans and assume that it must be great in the engine. Completely ignoring the fact that Teflon contained PTFE, a solid. People were putting solids into their engines thinking its a good idea. And unfortunately you couldn't convince them it wasn't. When it comes to on the shelf brands. When you compare alike oils. Synthetic for synthetic. All oils are the same. If you run high dollar XXX and I run the AutoZone cheap stuff of the same type. Are you going to pull ahead of me? Are you going to see any better gas mileage? Is your engine neccesarily going to last longer or incure less wear? NO, not outright.
It's not so much the oil you use thats important as much as the maintanence put into it is.

Now am I advocating that it doesn't matter, you can run syrup if you wish - no. Bare in mind, there is a degree of relativity here. I have been building engines for years. I've seen all the reports, and I tell people the same thing. Just stick with a name brand you like. But more importantly simply keep tabs on the mileage with regular intervals. We aren't talking about products such as Red Line, Royal Purple, AmSoil, or Lucas. And along those lines, the reverse is true that I am not talking about nor recommend Coastal, Car & Driver, etc oils.

Regardless of what (name brand) oil you use, which brand you use is not as important as a regular service intervals. And in that respect its true - oil is oil.

I'm no spokesman for Fram, and I don't really feel they are the best company out there. I use them because of cost, and the fact that they get the job done. Fram isn't the only filter I have used exclusively, I've used (at one point or another) them all. Granted you can't see everything in the oil, but an inspection can in fact tell you quite a bit of information. An oil analysis test will show you the minute differences between oils. And they are just that - minute. What makes an engine last is not how much you spend at the Auto Store. What makes an engine last is how often you maintain it. It is this reason, and not the oil (or filter) I use why my car runs as good as it does despite the mileage its wracked up.

 

my mom worked for champiom laboratories in Albion IL for like 10 or 11 years. i asked her about their filters and this is what she told me. (she made them) they are tested every 2 hours for the seal between the metal disk and the filter element. they test them by holding one end of the disk in a vice and pulling on the other end of the disk with a pair of vice-grips. the filter element and the inner core will bend/break before the seal does. this test is a little more complicated, but thats the main part of it. there are alot of other tests too. if you can pull on cardboard disks (like in this test) and they wont break than i am convinced. I am also aware that a few years ago a lot of fram filters were recalled because of rust on the backplates, threads, etc. Champ Labs makes Bosch, AC Delco, Motorcraft, Supertech, Mobil 1, STP, alot of other brands. My mom said that the elements in Mobil 1 were the thickest, like cardboard. Then Bosch filters had the next thickest elements. The Supertech, AC Delco and Motorcraft all got the same filter elements. They were all like the next best (behind Mobil 1 and Bosch). STP and others are examples of the lower quality of filters that thye make. All Champ made filters have metal disks on the end, not cardboard. Champ Labs conducts tests on its products itself. check the back of one of the filters that they make. i dont know that much about fram but i would only buy a Champ made filter. Like I said they make filters for alot more companies, but i dont remember them. Thats my 2 cents on the issue. I will take my moms word for it, because she did make filters for a long time.

 

"Run two identical engines for 100,000 miles under the same conditions...one with a cheap Car and Driver oil, a better conventional oil like Chevron and a synthetic such as Mobil 1 and I bet you'd see differences in the three engines in terms of wear."

IIRC, Consumer Reports pretty much did that a few years back and found no significant difference.

"Regardless of what (name brand) oil you use, which brand you use is not as important as a regular service intervals."

Bingo.

So why do I use Mobil 1? It makes me feel good .

 

This thread won't die and will likely just keep going and going, so I'll present my "closing statement"...besides, it's spring break and I've got a plane to catch!

Fram isn't a bad filter in that if you put one on your car it will do horrible things. It is just that there are better filters for a little more $$$ or some that are around the same price range. I'm sure for the average driver who doesn't really give a second thought about filters, a Fram would work just fine. With that said, there are those that want the best or something better for their cars. For example, one common question that ALWAYS comes up about intakes is "K&N FIPK vs. SLP CAI, which ones is better?". Both do the same job with little difference but people still want to know which one is better. Some feel the metal in the SLP heats up the intake and choose the K&N for that reason. Does it make a difference? Who knows, but it was enough for some to choose a K&N just to know they didn't have metal heating up the intake. Just like the endcaps in Fram...does it make a huge difference? Honestly, I don't know but I'd rather not find out. Thats why I choose not to use Fram. I used to use Mobil 1s because of the construction but since I can't get them for $3 anymore, I use another Champion made filter.


As for oil, I used to use synthetic when I could get it cheap from my work. I used Mobil 1 as an example since its probably the most popular synthetic and is available pretty much anywhere. If you wish, substitute RedLine, Chevron, Castrol, whatever synthetic into where I mentioned Mobil 1. Will you see a difference between the different synthetics? Probably different #s in the tests. Will you feel/hear/see a difference? Odds are very good that you won't. When I used RedLine and Mobil 1, I didn't. Oil analysis showed similar #s thought the RedLine had so much more moly in it. So again we are here with the those that really don't care and those that want the best or something better. I prefer a oil that has lower oxidation levels and lower wear #s. Most probably don't give a crap, but I do.

Any synthetic (with the exception of Syntec) will give you better protection than a conventional oil. That is a fact. Far greater temp range of protection, lower pour points and longer drain intervals. There are differences between Synthetic A vs. Synthetic B and Conventional A vs. Conventional B. Whether or not it is a big deal, well...thats up to everyone individually.

BTW, I really do like this thread. Been a long time since there has been a good thread. Not the usual "how do I make my car go faster" or "can my 3.4 camero beat a 3.4 mustang?"

Later guys, the beach and some coronas are calling my name.

EDIT: I totally agree with keeping up with maintenance. Even if you use the most expensive filter with the most awesome oil you can find, if you don't change it regularly you are no better off. I go no more than 3k on conventional and 5k on synthetic. I'm sure I could go push both further but I like the peace of mind.

 

Those are some very good points, and well taken.

I think, in this post there is a grave differance in saying "Ya know, You can use Fram, but the reason I don't is ___ " is much more noteworthy than "Fram Bashing". Which I feel others did.

It sounds to me that those that are really educated in the matter, it's not about the cardboard at all, its about the filtering ability of the pleats. Others simply read that Fram has cardboard where other companies have metal and assume it must be weaker.
In a way, thats simillar to people always saying, "the interior of the F-body looks like cheap plastic". Well good eye inspector Clusoe...it is! Does that mean people shouldn't buy F-bodies because GM doesn't decide to cover up cheap plastic with cheap leather and charge you for it like they slayed 13 fattened baby lambs to make your steering wheel? Um, no not really. Just means we are saving money having realized that a sports car isn't about what makes up the interior. Its about making it count where it needs to: at the tracks, and on the streets.

Likewise, it seems to me that despite the fact that I will concede Fram isn't the best, its also not the worst. And just because another brand may protect 1/1000ths of a degree better. Well when you take long term test like 100,000 miles. 1/1000ths adds up to only 100 miles. Are you really saving your engine having spent all that money just to go 100 more miles, in the face of 100,000???

Your illustration of Air intake systems is indeed a relavant one. Personal preference accounts for I'm guessing nearly 50% of why people buy products. It's not always that they are better, its that, that product has been advertised or sold in a manner to "sell" that person on using it. Where it be an exhaust that make a certain sound, or an Intake that claims the most advertised horsepower. So in those respects, a lot of times, as with when I mentioned Teflon oils, you can't convince people of things which they have already set their minds to. Once people join the bandwagon of boycotting Fram, its really difficult to show them that Fram isn't this horrible monster that will steal your money and ruin your engine.

As far as conventional oils vs. synthetics I'm pretty much with you on that. Not only are synthetics better in nearly every respect (will get to that) but being synthetics very little natural resources are used in making them. Now, at the risk of sounding like a gay hippy tree hugger, because performance nuts are usually the exact opposite, removing their catalytic converters, we all need to do our part. This is just one way we can protect engines, and protect the environment.
Anyway, the only place I differ with you on, and this is only because you didn't mention it, is that when it comes to breaking in an engine, I don't like the factories using synthetics, when any engine builder will tell you, a conventional oil is the best thing you can use during break-in. After that, swap to synthetic. When and engine is brand new, there are tolerances that need to be seasoned and worked down. Without the properties found in conventional oils, you actually pre-condition your engine to wear more in its early stage. But there are other things to do when building and engine, like using Engine assembly lube and and priming your oil pump that are just as important, so take that for what its worth.

For performance, only a few oils have actually shown performance. Such as Lucas, RedLine, Royal Purple etc. But none of these you are going to get at AutoZone or Pep Boys. They are expensive fills, but they do work. I've seen a drain and fill of engine/tranny/rear end with a dyno run to show an average gain of between 5-10 horsepower, and claims of 5% more power.
Now for me, in my Z28 with it holding in excess of 9 quarts of oil. At $7.95 a quart that's almost 72 dollars, plus another 72 bucks for about 9 quarts of tranny fluid, and then 2 quarts of Gear lube and a posi additive. Thats another 16 and 5 bucks. Add it all up you are talking about 165 dollars in lubricants!!! For 10 horsepower. That's a great deal at a little over 16 bucks a horse. But I don't think I really need a 72 dollar oil change.

It's a good debate and anyone is welcome to participate, I only ask that what you have to say is intelligent and coherent. Please don't post "...Fram is @$$..." We should be better than that.

 

I love topics like this!

Everyone "thinks" they are an engineer. Everyone thinks they have the only answer to such a trivial question.

Face it, I have my ways... you all have yours!

I use Q.S., you use Mobil.

I hate Fram, you won't stand by anything else.

Let it rest.

 

Please don't post if you have nothing to say, its obvious you haven't even been reading. And for your information, I actually am an engineer.

 

Almost forgot... in reference to the "best oil change."

IMO... It's the one you do yourself! Nothing beats working on your own stuff, nothing!

You hold the fate of that motor, the whole car for that fact, in your hands when you're the one working on it! The good, the bad, the ugly... it's all yours! I love that ****. It makes you feel good when you burn the guy your racin', 'cause your the one that put all the pieces together. It just gives me a hard-on!

 

should get out more.
Building your own engines is where its at, true. Anyone with enough money can buy something fast. That don't make you a hot-rodder.

 

LOL...I'm back. Only for a minute though, my friends decided to eat here at the house rather than drive to the airport early. Smart considering the additional security.

Glad we agree on some things, Bliggida. I totally agree about engine break-in. I plan on getting a 2005 GT (BOO, I know. ) and I plan on using the stock oil for the first few oil changes then switching to a full synthetic.

Oh yeah, I'm not an engineer but I will be in a year (likely two).

Ok, seriously...bye.

Spring break + beach + chicks =

 

When your married with two kids and a hobby of cars, "getting out" isn't much of an option.

Nothing worse than a "know it all" engineer! (graduating class of 1994.. bachelor in M.E. from the Univ. of IL. - man am I getting old!)

 

Never said I knew it all, but thanks for playing. However I do know about oil to say the least. If you actually bothered to read my posts you as a M.E. student would and should know that nothing I said was incorrect.

Even if I wasn't an engineer, I've been building race engines for many years now, such that, that alone would substantiate my opinion's on the matter, aside from the truth that most of my posts were indeed fact not opinion.

 

now im curious is there any good additives for maybe an older engine that somone doesnt want to change to synthetic now additives that dont contain teflon

 

There are some formula's that are advertised for "Higher Mileage Engines". It's half marketing, and half truth. There are some additives that you can put into the engine to help increase the seal around worn down rings. But, that only works for a relatively short window. On newer engines, you won't see worn rings at 50,000 or 70,000 miles like older engine of the 60's and into the 70's where tolerances were not as tight. On newer engines with average use, rings should last somewhere between 150,00 to 200,000 miles. But those additives work for a short window because, hey when your rings are worn down, they are making the seal they need to. More mileage means more wear. So it may help to stop smoking and burning oil for about 10,000 to 25,000 miles but eventually it'll get so bad it won't matter what you put into the engine.