Eric,Secend Street Speed (as Fred mentioned earlier) built the fastest LT1 out there. It was a 383 with Canfield heads,Vortech SC ("unkown trim"),etc etc etc.

Lon and Bill and the others really know whats going on,the LT1 above made 1100+ crank hp and went 9.04@154 in a 3800lb convertable.

They do everything in house. They have engine and chassis Dyno's and are some of the best dfi tuners around. We take a friends 87 Firebird there for a base tune for the DFI,it made 731hp to the tires,and is a registered street car.

 

hmmm...

sounds good.

 

Eric: there's a fine line between being involved in a project and trying to micro manage over someone's shoulder. Just a word of advice: if you are having a motor built, pick someone you trust, discuss extensively what your needs are, leave the details of how to achieve them up to the guy doing the work. It's reasonable to expect some back and forth during the buildup, just don't bug the guy excessively and lead him to think your questioning his competence. It can lead to problems.

Examples of "ok" and "not ok".

Not ok:
You specify 5.85" Lunati ProMod rods and they are on backorder, so the builder gets 6" rods and installs them without telling you.

Ok:
5.85" rods on backorder, builder calls you to ask if you want to wait or will be happy with another brand or a different length.

Not ok: You told him to go with the 6" rods and call the next day to remind him that different pistons will be needed.

Not ok: You call up repeatedly to ask if he remembers all of the stuff you went over, especially when you change the details each time.

I can't seem to think of some of the real juicy one's that I have observed/heard of. But I hope you get my drift. I know of situations that got so bad that the shop asked the customer to come pick up their parts and take them elsewhere, it just got to be too time consuming, especially when this was the same customer who beat you down unmercifully on the price in the first place. Another variant of this is someone who makes a lot changes but still expects the job to done on a tight schedule.

I guess I am talking about "how to be a good customer 101". It's a two way street. Not really sure why it seems relevant to me in this thread. Just that it's the other 1/2 of the equation in terms of the question "what's a good shop" that doesn't usually get talked about.

One other thing that will endear you to the shop. At most places it's policy to require at least 1/3 of the cost up front. Some shops want 1/2 of the estimated total. Offer right up front to pay 1/2 of the estimated total. This will give them the idea that you understand something about how a business works and aren't going to be a dead beat. It costs you nothing, as it is money that you will be spending anyway but will bring a lot of good will. And if at all possible, pay this initial deposit with a check, not a credit card. Most places hate credit cards for a number of reasons. I can elaborate if you wish.

Good luck.

Rich Krause

 

Being involved with a buildup is definatly a good thing; however, being *too* involved is something that is not good. An engine builder does what he does for a reason.....usually because he is good at it. I have seen/heard of situations where someone has become *too* involved with the building process, only to end up causing alot of problems on both sides.

Again, remember that an engine builder (reputable, of course) is just that for a reason....he knows engines and how to build them. Some "average joe" (ie. like me) going in and trying to tell the builder what to do and what to use is just going to annoy the builder. Talk to the builder about your goals, and what parts you are thinking of using.....then ask for their input. They have alot more experience than us.

I dont even want to get started on the stories I have personally witnessed when guys start using 2-3 different shops for one build Overcomplication, and when a problem arises....blame is flying in every direction.

Definatly spend the $300 and have the engine builder actually assemble the motor too.

Jason

 

Jason and Rich are EXACTLY RIGHT.

BEING A GOOD CUSTOMER IS PARAMOUNT.

Thanks for the comments before from the other guys.

Yeah, you need to give the builder his space. I specialize in engine design (that's what I love!) and do assembly because that's how you make money. The designs I do are never the bigger is better theory, they are based off of a dependency of one part on another. That is another reason why the designs are not a bussiness. If you just paid me for a design then go changing any part (and I mean any) it will not work nearly as well, or most likely it will BREAK! It's about a combo and getting the most out of it in the RPM band you run it in. There are alot of limits and you need to be realistic with them.


Rich is DEAD ON WITH THIS! This really is how to be a good customer 101! Belive me there is not enought money in this bussiness for a customer to be a Pain In the Butt. If there was you could not afford it.

I shot you a e-mail when you posted this. Good Luck with the search. I'd love to work with you, but as you see I have rules. I don't mind people being interested and wanting to know more about what's going on. That's how I am. Some of the requests like Hot Honeing are not something you are going to find cheap. In fact on a full engine build up (design to engine) I am not cheap, but when the engine does what you want and more, then it's a justified price.

You could always talk to Competiton Engineering if you need the best! He specializes in cirlce track engines, and has a great track record. You might want to ask the price of a engine up front.

Some of the things you want added in here are odd. Scat could supply you with the exact crank you need. Balancing is easy and it's more important that the throws are close rather than being dead on the bob weight. The oil throws it off during opertation anyways. What you are looking for is a Scat Ultra Light Weight 4340 Crank with Swain Oil Shedding Coating. That is the only way you will get what you want for uner $2000K

I have never seen a complete kit from a company that I like either, it's just not something that is going to happen. Then again a $1200 crank, a $1000 set of rods and a $1000 set of pistons w/ pins and then $250 for the rings is never cheap either.

I work with Comp because of a very good connection, but also because they have lots of top notch stuff that works perfect for me. If you have a guy you use, then your engine builder needs to talk with him too. Cams are the last thing you want to argue about with your engine builder. The reason is because they all have thier own ideas of what will work, and their engine combo is designed around their cam. This is the last place that you want to tell a guy what to do period!

One last thing, you are right nobody knows everything. That is the reason I will buy heads from a porter such as TEA or Weld, or have them done by a guy that I like and see good results from Brent Singh (does lots of LS1 custom heads) Also the reason I use Comp to design my cam lobes and spec my valve springs and parts. Or why I go to Diamond or JE and give them what I need and they make the piston that works best for me. I don't tell these guys where to port, how to design the lobe ramp or where to put the ring lands. That is why you pay them what you pay them!


Listen to these guys. Jason and Rich both have experience with builders and they give GREAT advice on this.

Sorry this was long. I felt like I had to same some points here, not just for you but for the readers of this forum.

Good Luck

Bret Bauer, Bauer Racing Engines

 

Eric:

I think you would like Second Street..... they are flexible, in that they can work "turnkey" (drop your car off, tell me what you want in terms of end results, and we'll call you when its done), or with maximum customer involvement. I was introduced to Second Street by George Baxter.... he spends tons of time in the shop, making what they build a true 50-50 project. They do have their prejudices... they will not use electric water pumps, they do not like Fluidampr, they will try and sell you a MoTeC before anything else, they prefer dry nitrous..... but they will work with you. If there are any "mistakes" in my motor, it is from where I took the lead and made a decision without discussing it with them.

I did get the usual reaction when George told them I was an "engineer"..... rolleyes and an "oh ****" with lots of snickers.... but I think by the time my engine was done, we had total respect for each other.

But the talent is there.... the staff is extremely limited. The two owners are toally hands-on... Lon does the mechanical stuff, Bill Hunsberger is one of the few authorized "specialty race engine" tuners for MoTeC in the entire US.... Kenny Duttweiler is one of the eight others. They are also authorized distributors/tuners for Accel/DFI, FAST, Haltech and E'motive.

The only other full-time employee is an ex-Formula 1 mechanic from Australia. Maybe an occaisional part-time guy to clean parts or run errands, but you gets hands-on from the owners. Your car is treated the way you would treat it, protected from dirt and scrapes. The workmanship is excellent.

Like any shop, they have more business than they can handle. They are generally realistic about promises.... maybe missing a few promises, but not most of them. In this business, that puts them way ahead of most shops.

As far as cost, they are not cheap.... shop labor is $65/hr, computer/electronics is $75 or 80, dyno time is $150/hr. Actual time charges are very reasonable for most "engine" related work. They tend to be a little high on hours for trans, rear end work, etc, but that isn't what they do best. They do not have an in-house welder, but call a "local" down out of the mountains of PA, and his work is supperb, and pricey.

The parts they buy are generally at reasonable cost... you are not typically charged "list", and they did not seem to charge labor for the engine assembly, covering those costs out of the markup on the parts. If you want to use any GM parts, get them yourself, because they will use a local Chevy dealer.

 

Thanks for the input guys.

And don't worry...
I know the difference between making decisions and micro-managing.