Ditto.... Get some flow numbers on the heads... better yet, watch them flow the heads... Not that that even matters because if you don't understand how a flow bench works they can set it up to actually flow more than it really does. There are limitations to the amount of power you can make with a givin cylinder head. If you're using LT4's which with a GOOD port job will probably flow maybe around 300-310 cfm, the max anyone will ever be able to make is maybe around 600-620 Fwhp. To make the kind of power you want to make you'll need heads that flow more like 380. That's more than LS6 heads are generally capable of flowing... There's no way in the world anybody's gonna get a 23 degree head with a 2.100 valve to flow that kind of air. 330-340 cfm would be pushing it for something like that. And even then, I guarantee a no name shop is not capable of doing something like that. I can seriously estimate that at best he may get those heads flowing 285 cfm. That would make probably around 530-540 hp on that shortblock, which would make around 450-460 rwhp.

BTW. Kieth Black pistons and 13:1 compression?? Kieth Black pistons are nothing I would even remotely consider using on something like this. At least not with that compression. It's a great street piston to use, but if you're making the compression so high that you have to run race gas, you should be using a forged piston. They'll be more durable, and make more power because they are lighter than Kieth Blacks (generally a very heavy piston). Just my personal opinion, but if he claimed 620 rwhp, and wants to use Kieth Black pistons, I'd be finding the nearest exit....

Later
Chuck

 

Chuck,

I've seen 23 stuff go 350-360cfm, but that was a big port.

As for Keith Black, the Hyper stuff is the best budget piston out there, and he formerly was a big name in drag racing.

http://www.keithblack.com/history.html

I don't think that they make real high end pistons. At least nothing like BME, Mahle or JE

Bret

 

Maybe its one of those new dynoes, like a Mustang dyno (seems like a low #), but the other way around??

Ditto on what Chuck just said, I cant believe no one else brought that up. First of all 600+ whatever HP RW FW, doesnt matter, KB hypercrap pistons arent gonna cut ****, then throw any kind of N2O, forced air, RPMs at them, youll be takin the car back to him less than 100 miles after you leave (on a towtruck).

Maybe bump that CR up to 18:1 and some "boos" fuel and you might see those numbers, but still doubtful.

 

I agree with Chuck in that you can multiply head flow cfm at peak cam lift by 2 to get the approximate hp limit of the head.

For instance, my AFR 210's flow 280 cfm at .750". So, with a .750 lift cam, my max hp with these heads is 280 X 2 = 560 hp.

But, my flow at .600 lift (my actual max lift) is only 270 cfm. So, my max hp NA with these heads is 540 hp.

A friend of mine just had a set of Pontiac 23 deg, high port heads (similar to AFR 215 raised runner) max'ed out by Larry Meaux. They peak out at 338 cfm, so his max NA hp is around 675.

Mike

 

Hey Bret, yeah I realize that. That's why I put the 2.100 valve part in there, because that's around the max valve size he's gonna be able to run on a 4.030 bore.

No, for a street motor, and especially a budget motor, I would definitely use Kieth Black pistons... They are just not a serious high end hp making piston due to their weight and bulky design. That's all I was sayin...


Later
Chuck

 

dyno's dont tell all. a dyno can be manipulated to read what they want you to believe.

people on boards(especially this one) are way to hung up on dyno number,and peak head flow numbers.

the TRACK ultimately tells all,because hp means nothing without a chassis that cant handle it.

 

Oh, I wasnt directing that at you, I replied that at the same time you did, I was directing it at the pistons themselves for use in a 660rwhp na+juice motor that is going in his car.

 

Nah, I was talkin to Bret. Sorry...

Later
Chuck

 

dyno and track numbers will tell. well have to wait a while for the tracks to open out here again.

what i think i find most disturbing about this post is the lack of belief. ive already seen a car that did it, and not with any of the all out racing things some of you are talking about. its still roller. not solid roller. they are 5k heads. not sure what pistons were in it. but i saw the dyno sheet, and also had the pleasure of riding in it. this thing is a beast. my car was dynoed at 320rwhp, and my car felt like a 154fwhp neon in comparrison. it was possible to keep the car sideways on drags in 5 gears.

so check this out: stop being concerned with what i can and cant do. proof is in the pudding, and ive already had a taste. so when things start going back together, ill take pictures of stuff here and there and post back. then, the numbers dont lie.

 

No one is picking on you man. Anybody couldve come on here and said they have a 660rwhp N/A LT1 and the same people wouldve replied with the same comments.

Its just not possible.(99% not possible)

The proof is in the pudding with Jimlab for example. What 18* probably 8 or 9k heads. and about 25k in other goodies like billet crank featherlight rods crazy sweet pistons. 647hp, yayyyyy, but subtract around 80ish for a manual or 150ish for automatic and you arent quite close to that 650rwhp mark anymore.

We arent just picking on you making you feel bad that you arent gonna get a nice motor, you are just being misled in some way by this guy. Does he have an email address someone here can contact him on to find out what he has cuz im sure everyone on the board would like to know how to build a 600rwhp N/A LT1.

 

Drew I have a few questions for you.

1 what do you plan to do with this car? Daily driver/Drag car/dyno queen?

2 what are your ET goals?

3 you do know you will need at least a 6 point rollbar helmet fire jacket etc.. to be able to run at the track if you break the 11's (I hope you are shooting for 9's) I think if you have a t-top car is the same as convertible's as far as NHRA goes. I am not on the up and up on the roll cage issuse but I think you have to have a 10 pt. cage if you run in the 11's with t-top's or vert?

4 what times does the car you took a ride in run? what trans is in it rear etc..????


Thanks Sean

 

hes not online as of yet. soon though. like i said, ill take pics, then get it dynoed. that will tell what has been going on.

i swear i had read that kieth black made some forged pistons. that i will have to take a closer look at. i know that dropping n2o on hypernu <--- that one word pistons is not the greatest idea.

anyways, all in all no matter what it will be worth it. he also does body work. im getting the car painted for a really good deal. ive seen a few of his paint jobs, and wow.

but im still telling you about this 96z28. if my car turns out to be close to this, i dont think the numbers would matter to me.

 

i would be happy with 10's. i know about the roll bar and such. im going to put a 4pt cage in, because of safty and how it still looks pretty stock.

its a daily driver mainly. i know where this is going, about it not being streetable. well see. if not it could become a weekend car. drag strips are not everything. i wont put more than a 4 pt, i want the car to look mostly stock. ive seen a few 500 hp zs running around town frequently. one guy named cody has a white z that is driven a lot dropping huge n2o shots.

the guy that owns the car is 60, hes not into the drag racing scene. just an old man with a serious need for speed. no idea what it runs in the 1/4. i do know he has a 12bolt rear, but no idea about tranny.

 

NHRA requires a 5 point rollbar not 4.....
if its a TTOP you need a full rollcage to run at the track for 10.99 and under....

jesse

 

660 RWHP NA LT1 , Daily driver I don't think so. I would call my LT1 about maxed out, it might be near the 660 FWHP, but its far from being a driver.

beside this 660RWHP 96 Z you had taken a ride in, what other really fast cars have you been in?