After hearing Nightrains explanation of things, and the info he helped me with previously. (Thanks again). I would say this, I think of flow benches like dynos now. Everyone may vary, different benches may flow lower/higher depending on what kind they are (Just like the mustang dyno) and The only thing I will be looking at is what the same heads made on the flow bench prior to and after being worked on. If they gain 60cfm over stock..then I will base my decision on that. Which also means only using someone I know/trust and I can actually see them test and what the results are with my own eyes. If there bench said my stock heads flowed 230...we obviously know its off... but if the new flow is 290 (meaning they picked up 60cfm) then I know the number isnt right...but I know they flow a hell of a lot better than they did. I guess thats how I see things now. Just my .02

 

Lloyd,
I had my LT1 heads ported by a local guy. He gave me a flowsheet showing they're flowing 271 CFM @ .550"...With 2.0"-1.56" Manley Pro-Flo valves. Judging from what my car is running, does this sound pretty accurate? It's a stock 96,000 mile bottom end with a CC305, MAC mid lengths, 58MM t-body, and 30# injectors. With a full-weight (3448#) stock suspension '93 Z I've been the best of a 12.05 @ 112 MPH with a 1.67 60 ft. time with 4.10 gears, 3800 stall, and ET Streets.

Frank

 

Folks can play flow bench games all day. When it's all said & done results on the track & street are where it's at. If your car is consistently out running cars with similar set ups or cars with larger set ups I'd say you have a good combination going... heads being just one part of that equation.
Wins are the ultimate indicators of performance IMO.
Steve...

 

Anybody have a link to the said thread? I can't find it.

Edit - nevermind, just found it.

 

I have to say Mindgames point is very vaild here based on this statement by Tony......

"I know I'm one of the best headporters, I'm a Engineer and graduate specializing in fluid dynamics, hydrology, I've been in this business for 15 years and decided to branch out on my own after doing numous amounts of head porting for local customers,Hansen Racing, one Bammann Racing customer & J & E Performance customer who will vouch and stand by my VPE Inc. headwork."

Other than the cocky over tones that are applied to this statement and some references, how about throwing the phone numbers/e-mails of the customers up here or to someone in the post who is willing to ask them what's up? The educational background you state is good but getting the diploma is only half the battle, not "getting it" can also come with that diploma. Not knocking you but the arrogance that comes with the post is enough of a turnoff to really wonder if you really are that good or only in your own mind?

Looking at the flow numbers, which is something I get to do a lot. I don't care as much about them, but they are a good tool for finding what's the problem with a motor or evaluating a certain head casting and the work that's been done to them. I've seen LT1 and LT4 heads from posters in this thread to guys who do high level competition engines. I have seen some very impressive results from some of them, but all in all they are not getting the huge numbers that you claim. As Phil said you can't cheat physics...

The best sets are higher than what the average guy gets but even then the flow numbers are not that big of a jump. Guys like Phil and Lloyd do offer very good heads, and even work that uses new seats, new guides and 2.02+ valves in a stock LT1 casting are not putting out 260cfm at .400, and the porter in question has a much better record than "a few local guys." There is not the material in the casting for these numbers from what I have seen.

Even with all this talk about flow bench numbers, it's not the be all end all for power prodcution. CFM per HP depends a good amount on the skill of the builder and the rest of the combination. Mindgames point of "That's why porters like to work real closely with engine builders... either that or they work for the engine builder " is very accurate.

Tony,

I'm not knocking you, I'm sure you take great pride in your work which is a great thing. Looking at the flow numbers as the only guage of what you can do still leaves a lot of questions out there that are left unanswered. As I said before I've seen a ton of 275-285+ cfm LT1 heads that never move that kind of air. Let alone LT4 castings that don't make 300cfm when they claim that they do. It's not just the high end of the lift range that makes the claims skeptical it's the whole flow curve. Then team that up with numbers that you claim on LS1 castings, I find things even harder to belive. The best guys in the country doing LS6 castings can do that, but a LS1 casting without extensive welding and reworking is not going to get there on any honest bench in the county, and if it did I would gladly pay the money for the heads.

On the opposite end I find the Pro Top Line 220cc head numbers a bit short, since that head casting is a much better piece of marble to carve "David" out of. 320cfm, I would think that a casting that starts off moving 288cfm without work would find much larger gains considering that a 215cfm stock casting can find 100cfm. The 23 deg arcitechure is still the limiting factor but 350cfm is still atainable in 23deg valve angle heads.

I would be more than willing to spend my shop time testing one cylinder head for everyone. Give port volume, chamber volume, and flow numbers on a independant bench. I don't even need a whole head, just bandsaw off one cylinder with a finished port. Even send out the port entry you want attached to the head to throw out that variable too. If they are this good and at this price I would love to be able to recomend part like these to customers.

The offer is there, I don't want a free head I just want to see what you claim backed up on my bench.

Bret

 

Was that a double dog dare in the nicest possible way?

 

Frank,

those tomes with a cc 305 is pretty descent, you probably have good flowing heads. As far as flow #'s. . . ? ? ? who knows. As long as you are happy withg the performance that is all that matters. You will fins some people running larger cams, better heads, etc, and making less power or slower E.T.s than you. You will also find a few people with a milder cam and lesser heads running faster than you. All in all, I think you are OK for what you have.

If you pulled your heads and put them on a flow bench and found out that they flowed 280/250 cfm, and then re installed them, your car would not be any faster/slower because of the new flow sheet.

There is a guy named Frank on here with a SMALL Crane cam and stock heads running in the 11's. Traction, converter, 60 ft times, etc, are what it is all about. Hopefully no body goes and buys this little cam and expects the same results because this is not typical. For your parts mentioned, the car seems to be running well.

Lloyd Elliott
NightTrain66

 

Ditto!

 

Thems are some fighting words....

He's calling you out son.

 

Just curious.... you list your business name on the website as "Vitale Performance Engineering". Since you use the word "engineering" in your business name, we all know that in NJ you must have a licensed professional engineer in responsible charge of the business.... but I can't find a "Tony Vitale" or a "Dee Vitale" or an "Anthony Vitale" in my NJ Board of Professional Engineers and Land Surveyors directory. Who is you licensed professional engineer?

 

Yea..I agree with ya. Unless you build the whole car your kinda at the mercy of the person who bought your heads and how they set their car up. I know this will never happen..just thought it would be fun to see. Who knows...I may have even been in that race

 

Your right Lloyd..frank is a good friend of ours. His car is hands down 1000 times better setup then 99% of the street cars racing on the same track. Oh..franks car is still street driven also..no track car there. What kills me is everyone is so stuck on flow numbers. They are just a tuning tool to me just like a dyno. Because the bench varience there is no way to compaire two heads unless they are flowed on the same bench. Is the higher flowing head always going to make more hp..no. There are so many factors that go into a head to make power but for 95% of the people on this board thats all that look at. My lt1 heads are a good example..average peak flow across all ports was 242 at 550. But the car may 440 rwhp through a moser 9" and 4.71 gears and went 10s at 125 mph in a 3430 lb car. Now...the problem we run into also is that the head porters are stuck with the customer setup as to how the car will run. I guess it all boils down to if the customers are happy but I would love to see a "this is my serious car" from the head guys and have a shootout..I think it would be fun to see and educational for the people looking at making the leap to getting their heads ported. I know it will never happen just thought it would be a neat idea.

 

Now that is interesting.

They (VPE) must not have made the directory yet.

-Mindgame

 

I've suggested to Brent and Chris that they might want to merge this thread with the one you intended to reply to.

 

Go to the website and check the "readers rides" section.... its a family affair.

I don't mean to throw stones here, but something isn't adding up. Bayville, NJ is not far from where I am working right now.... might be worth a drive to the shop to look things over.