It's defintly worth the 90$ or so...just get it done and end this bickering
up for MADZ28

 

I wonder if ESPN would be willing to cover this event, I would love to see it.

 

 

Yeah i was there, We wehre doing a dyno day and he just happend to show up. Its hard to get before/after dyno results from anyone. You can't count before after dyno results on 2 different days because the dynos are not that consistant even between the same dyno.

What is consistant and shows proof is timeslips. This guy had a stock 93 M6 and ran it back to backwith my chip and the stocker on the same night in AL, I never even seen the car so you know I didn't dyno tune it.

http://www.pcmforless.com/images/dyn...s/timeslip.bmp

I can get you in touch with the guy if you have any questions about it. Hes a pretty nice guy. You can also see alot of before after stuff on our website in the testimonials and in the "dyno proven results"

 

Some people prefer an argument over proof.

 

I'll give my $.02.

Dyno tunes are a GUESS, an educated guess...sure, but a guess. Remember, the thread starter was talking about a mail order tune, not a dyno tune.

Kreinmc's car lost 7 rwhp going from the pcmforless tune to the madz28 tune. I lost quite a bit of HP going from a stock tune to the pcmforless tune in my cammed LT1. With the pcmforless tune, the car ran dangerously lean on the dyno (14.5:1). I yanked the pcmforless tune out of my car and converted to obd1 and tuned the car myself. I picked up a couple mph from my dyno tune, and I was not a great tuner. There is no substitute for being there and dyno tuning the car.

Your guys' 15 hp examples are great, but these guys need to know they won't always pick up that much HP and in some cases, won't gain anything at all or lose HP. If your examples of people gaining HP are valid, my examples of myself and others losing HP are valid as well. I wasn't very happy to see my car running 14.5:1, pinging like crazy and risking blowing up my engine. Sure, I could have sent the pcm back and forth a few times and got the tune close, but by that time and the amount of money spent on shipping the pcm back and forth, you might as well get a dyno tune and get it right to start with. If you guys happen to nail the tune on the first try, that's great. You got lucky. I'm not bashing you guys as I think both tuners have something to offer, but I think these guys get a little caught up in the numbers they see online. I'm sure you guys only cite customers who gains, not those who don't see any gains. That's understandable, that's marketing.

Anyways, if you want a mail order tune, go for it and hope they get it right. On a stock car, you won't gain much on average IMO.

Madz28 and pcmforless can't deny that they are guessing. There are so many variables involved in getting a tune spot on. Simply going from 1500' elevation to 5000' elevation can change your LTFTs 4-6%...that alone can throw a tune off.

Facts are facts - dyno tunes are FAR better than mail order tunes. I don't know how much shops charge in your area, but we have an excellent tuner here in AZ that charges $70 for a dyno tune. Even if you pay $200 for a dyno tune, you will most likely come out ahead.

 

Which proof are you referring to? The proof that the tuners posted of customers gaining 15+ rwhp? Or, the proof I posted of my car running dangerously lean on the dyno and robbing HP and risking blowing up my engine or where Kreinmc lost HP with his tune?

Again, I want to reiterate that I'm not bashing the tuners, just giving examples I've seen so these guys have both sides of the picture. You won't always gain 15+ with a mail order tune.

Confirmation bias is a dangerous thing.

 

Bryan would have been the one doing your car in the case where you said it was 14.5 to one.. I for one can tell you that his tunes are spot on, when they aren't they its because the MAF is dirty, you got a bad o2, leaky exhaust, etc. I've been to dyno days with him and a stock car dynoed 14.5 :1 he took some electrical cleaner and cleaned off the maf wires and the car instantly dropped to the low 12's like a totally stock car should.

I can also tell you that sometimes I'll go out and dyno tune cars that he has mail order tuned before. the AFR's are always spot on.. (hopefully someone will chime in with from the KC dyno day I just did where 3 of bryans cars where like this and the only gains I was able to make was by fitting more timing into his tunes (he sets them up safe for mail order)

It is not a guess, if you consider it a guess than you also conisder every car that every automanufacture lets go to have a guess for a computer. Our tuning comes from expereience not guessing.. and I'll tell you we have quite a few years, cars, and magazine articles behind us to prove it.

 

Both of them will reprogram it for you if you were having a problem with it. You should have done that.

 

To say it's not a guess is about the stupidest thing I've read on here. You may be able to sell that to people who don't have much experience with tuning, but that's complete BS. And, to compare your tune to a company like GM's MASS PRODUCED cars with VERY tight tolerances is nearly as assinine.

If it's not a guess, I assume you NEVER gain any power over a mail order tune by dyno tuning it? BS. You'll always be closer with a dyno tune, that makes the mail order tune a guess, and sometimes you are way off.

 

If it is indeed all guess work I suppose the guys at PCM4Less and MADZ28 are the luckiest SOB's ever. After all, how else would you explain all of the satisfied customers?

 

I can sense a lot of frustration and tension in some of these posts.

So you are saying a tune is not worth it and we just rip people off. (see your first post)

It's funny how I rip people off charging $80 + $13 shipping (or $125 + $13 for OBD2) for a tune which can replace mods such as the following:

O2 simulators - $44.99 per piece (need two for OBD2 cars and also extensions for them)

Hypertech programmer - $339.96 (there isn't one thing the programmer can do and the tune can't)

Fan switch - $39.99

Granatelli MAF $319.99 (yes, all it does is just lean out the WOT air fuel ratio a bit just like the tune.... wonder why you don't complain about these? If you were lean to begin with, this one would've made you even leaner)

Heck, even an LT4 knock module

Skip shift eliminator - $25

Shift improver....
etc
etc

These are all quotes from Thunderracing.


You pay $80 or $125 (and the only reason it's $125 is because the software was $2500) to get everything you can do with any of the above listed modifications while only having to mail in your PCM or not even than if you do the core charge, and you say it's not worth it?

EVEN if it was a 4 RWHP gain, it still has a better price/value ratio than any of the above mods and if you disagree, then I'm sorry, but there is nothing else I can tell you that would change your mind. In that case, you're just plain stubborn.


You say a dyno tune is better. It may be better, but it depends on who does it. A shop just bought lt1_edit and/or ls1_edit and they want to get their money back from their investment, so they offer dyno tuning. Do you honestly beleive you will get a better tune from these guys than from me or Bryan? If so, I'm sorry, but you're mistaken. Just today, I retuned a car dyno tuned by a local, reputable shop. $400 later and it still had the tune I originally put on there after they worked on it.

Of course, someone like Ed Wright or Jeff Creech will put together a good dyno tune with good driveability, but how many of these guys do you have near you?

My point is, we actually spend a lot of time out there driving these cars and tuning. We've tuned so many of them on dynos and on the street, that you can't really call it an educated guess anymore. Yes, it's still somewhat of a guess, although I would call it more of an estimation based on previous experience with other similar or identical setups, but, again, you're paying $80 or $125, not $400 or more.

Now getting back to the topic. You are saying our tunes are junk, yet you never even tried to give us the chance of correcting it. Is it really my problem, or should I have read your thoughts somehow? The tune might not have worked on your car, but it worked on 80% of cars with identical mods to yours and it made more power. If yours started off leaner due to a reason or another, that is not really my fault, but like I said, I am always willing to work on it, you just never cared to give me the chance.

I think the biggest problem here is that people want something for nothing, or they simply just don't care. That's all I had to say in this post.

 

I have heard nothing but good things about Madz28 and Pcmforless. I got Ion to tune my car and I couldn't be happier. When I first got the tune my car developed a high rpm miss and got worse over time. I told Ion what my car was doing and he said that he really doubted the tune was making my car miss like that but if I wanted he would send me another pcm. I decided I would look my car over and replace fuel filter, test fuel pump and other little checks. Finally I decided I would just try a new Pcm. I got the PCM and it didn't help. I finally took it to the shop and they said I had a misfire on cylinder 8. I crawl under my car and find my spark plug is loose and my wire is also coming apart at the boot. I felt so stupid even thinking it was Ion's tune and me missing the wire arcing ( I guess you had to be under the car to see because I didn't see it from the top) and that I had a plug loose. So even against Ion's good judgement he was still willing to send me a new pcm without any trouble or hassle. Great guy if you ask me

 

Yes, a dyno tune is better...if you can't admit this, then you're being stubborn.

And yes, we have a local guy that can tune just as well as you or Bryan. He's tuned hundreds of local cars and is an EXCELLENT tuner (SN Nic00Z28M6). He charges $70 for a dyno tune.

If you were referring to me saying your tunes are a waste, that's not what I said. Re-read my posts. There is definitely some value in it and I know you guys are good tuners. My only point is the fact that you are making educates guesses. You can't possibly account for different conditions, altitude etc. on a consistant basis. As I said, a 3500' elevation change can change LTFTs by 4-6%. This will throw a tune off. There is no consistent substitute for being there, getting the baseline/driveability tune down, then strapping it down on a dyno and dialing it in perfectly. You will leave something on the table with most mail order tunes, even though you can get close most of the time. IE, had I not dynoed my car shortly after I put the pcmforless tune in my car, I wouldn't have known I was running so lean and I could have blown my motor. A lot of people simply throw the tunes in their cars and call it a day without knowing how the car is running.

Again, not bashing you guys at all...just saying saying you will gain 15rwhp on every car is a little far fetched IMO.