See what I mean, that's exactly what I'm referring to, the error prone method you're using. That's why I made such an effort to explain that the other methods will work if done correctly, but are prone to error. TDC is not part of the IC/EO equation. You will only have TRUE ZERO LASH when the lifter is on base circle/heel of the camshaft lobe. If the lifter is even a little bit on the lobe's ramp, that won't be ZERO LASH.

It's the MOST IMPORTANT aspect of adjusting lifter preload.

I strongly recommend you follow the procedure I posted. Virtually all the cam companies, magazine tech articles and websites I've visited recommend and use the IC/EO method. If you ever watch the PRO STOCK guys adjusting their valve lash you'll see they, too, use the IC/EO method.

Based on the method you used, I can't feel confident that the preload is properly set. However, I don't know if using the IC/EO method will cure your noise issue, but at least it will remove one more variable.

Here's a basic premise I live by: If what I'm doing isn't giving me the desired result, I MUST change something. Otherwise I'll end doing the same thing over and over and continue to get the same result. All I can do is recommend and suggest what I feel is best, then the ball's in your court.

Keep us posted on how you're making out.

Jake

West Point ROCKS!

 

That's the method I have used for years with a 100% success rate.

 

I have used both methods, but if the plugs are still in I use the method I mentioned since there less turning the crank shaft with full compression in the cyl.
If the piston is at TDC on the compression stroke, then both valves are fully closed and you are about a half turn of the crank shaft away from either valve opening or closing. When the heads were off I verified the hub marker was correctly oriented.
Its really a simpler method cause you're just following the firing order and turning the crank 1/4 turn each time to move on to the next cyl.

But yes, your method does ensure 100% that the other valve on the cyl you're working with is closed and on the base circle if you don't know that your hub is oriented correctly and is the method I first learned many years ago and alway use if the hub marker position can't be verified, so up until the head swap last month that was the method I had used on all previous attempts to fix this.

I'm probably going to swap back to the beehive springs and aluminum rockers with the longer PRs. The longer PRs will ensure one issue with the aluminum rockers is no longer an issue...the valve tip side of the truion was almost bottomed out on the polylock/stud when the valve was closed. The aluminums have been the quietest so far.

Just for discussion, here's a pic of the lobe profile of the cam installed, its the one on the far right. The center cam is the GTP6 that I used to have, and the cam on the left is the stocker. Now, since the LPE cam on the right is a "bigger" cam than stock, but is on a small base circle, the lobes still look more "pointy" than even the stocker, thus would be snapping the valve open/closed faster. I would think that the cam would keep the valve open longer and thus not be so pointed at the top, just have steep ramps getting there to max lift and holding it open longer then a steep ramp back down but thats not the case.

 

Well, okay, if that's what you want to do.

My thinking is we need to start from a level playing field; that is using procedures that are ones that a recommended. Re-inventing the wheel, like coming up with a preload procedure that I've never seen recommended before, adds a degree of uncertainty in addressing the problem. Eliminating variables is the best way to find the cause.

It makes me wonder why it is that the procedure you're using isn't one of the recommended procedures, see what I mean? If it was, in fact, a better way, don't you think it would be the recommended one? All in the name of not having to turn the crank more? It moves me off into a grey area, and area of "unknowns" and adds another variable..

Changing parts back and forth doesn't seem to be the answer, not getting you anywhere. You've done that before, right?

It has to be something we're missing. Something that's right there but not being recognized as the root cause(s).

If it were me I'd go back to square one on determining the pushrod length. I'd follow the specific directions given by CompCams. Use an adjustable pushrod. Set the roller of the rocker arm INBOARD with the lifter on the base circle of the lobe, include the preload depth of .030" to final measurement. I'd let those measurements determine the correct pushrod length, and not be influenced by what length works on a different engine.

Based on those measurements, once the correct length pushrods are obtained, I'd use the recommended procedure for setting preload. I'd then check for interference and clearance everywhere, just as is recommended.

Also, I wouldn't make ANY assumptions; I wouldn't assume that 'this' is okay or 'that' is correct. I'd check everything in the valvetrain and verify.

Seems to me that not following the recommended procedures just ends up making you go around and around and never solving the problem.

Wish I knew the "magic" answer to this. If it's any comfort, there have been a LOT of guys struggling to solve one problem or another and have gone through much the same frustration you must be feeling. All of those threads have had a happy ending though, with the OP finally finding the cure to his woes. In virtually all those cases the problem ended up being caused by something simple, something he'd over-looked or "assumed" was right.

Jake

West Point ROCKS!

 

When you say he is not using a recommended procedure. Not recommended by who, you?

 

I have read about both procedures, yes Jake's procedure would be recommended without knowing anything else and would be universally correct for any motor, thus why it is the one published the most. The hub could easily not be installed in the correct position thus making you not be at TDC or anywhere close when the arrow indicator is in the 1/4 turn increments.
I guarantee mine is, and as such, both valves are completely closed and on the base circle, otherwise you'd have a huge compression leak and much more problems.
But for the record, I have used both procedures, and have always used Jake's procedure up until the spring swap to the dual springs a week or 2 ago since I needed TDC anyway to hold the valves up.
The noise was still there no matter which procedure.

But, I do need to go back and see what a longer PR length will do for me at this point. Since the wear pattern went from the outboard part of the valve tip to the inboard part going from 7.15 to 7.30 I'm betting that longer PR will put it more inboard than what it already is.

 

Pay attention. A couple of my posts back, I listed several of them; cam manufacturers, most popular, well respected magazine Tech writers, websites, etc. Those are the ones who recommend the IC/EO procedure. You can add Lunati to that list.

Jake

West Point ROCKS!

 

I've been doing some more research for you. I found a site, hotrodders.com where there are A LOT of posts from guys having the same problem as you are.

Some claim it's their XE cam, others claim it's lifter to bore clearance issues, some say theirs are quiet, others claim their Lunati cam does the same thing, etc. One guys engine mechanic had him change all sorts of things trying to eliminate noise, but none worked.

One guy claimed it was an oil viscosity issue. One guy tore into his engine and change lifters, checked his cam bearings, primed the engine with the cam OUT to monitor oil flow, on and on and on.

One guy mentioned the Crane bulletin I referenced earlier, saying 1 to 1.5 turns from ZERO lash is required on some of their lifters. I still haven't found the exact bulletin though.

CompCams supposedly said it's because of the closing ramps on the XE lobes and not to be concerned. One guy who had been experiencing the noise for a long time, tore down his valve train and everything looked perfect.

One guy attributed it to excessive valve stem to guide clearance; another claimed it can be caused by mis-aligned lifter bores in the block.

Apparently this is a rather common issue across the web. Many have it but others don't. Seems there's no single cause, based on what I've been reading.

When you have a chance, check out that site. I read all those referenced posts hoping to find something that would help you, but maybe you'll see something I missed. In the meantime, I'll continued my research and post what I find.

Jake

West Point ROCKS!

 

Good find, I've read through quite a bit of the threads I found searching "valve train noise" and it seems the common thread with most are the XE aggressive lobes. If you're familar with LPE, they pretty much pioneered the aggressive lobe cams before the XE line came out, so I'd hazard to guess that the LPEs are just as aggressive or more than the Comps.
Makes me feel a little better. Most of the post I found though were for flat tappet XE cams, but I guess the noise would be the same.

I may try shimming the install height of the springs down some since I used them with a .596 lift cam, I suppose I could shim the install height down about .010-.020 with some thicker seat cups that would give it even more pressure when open.
Probably be the w/e before I can mess with it again.

 

Okay. Here are some other ideas:

How about trying more preload too, to see if it makes a difference? Maybe 3/4 turn from ZERO lash.

How about trying some heavier weight oil just to see if that makes a difference. Say going with a higher 2nd number. As an example, if you're currently running 5W30, how about full synthetic 5W40 or 10W40? You can always drain it out if there's no improvement.

Could your small base circle cam be preventing the oil hole in the lifter from properly aligning with the oil hole in the block? Wouldn't that prevent the lifters from seeing all the oil pressure it needs at those lower RPMs?

Just trying to brain-storm this.

I'm still searching. I just joined another Forum and I'll be searcing there to see what they have to say. I'll keep you posted on what I find.

Jake

West Point ROCKS!

 

As mentioned before, I've tried 1/4 to 1 full turn preload without any difference.
I already use 20w-50 oil, rotating assembly has 109k miles on it.
Hmm, haven't thought about the lifter alignment with the SB cam...they do get oil, if its enough not sure, but all rockers are getting oil at idle. I've had the VC off with it running trying to isolate what rockers were making noise, they pretty much all did. If the SB cam was an issue, what is done to remedy that since using SB cams is common with strokers needing more clearance?

Something I did read on that hotrodders forum was that someone said their lifter bore was worn, that it felt tight from the top, but the bottom section had worn so trying to move the lifter from the bottom you could feel the slop in it. That could be an issue with the mileage of the block/rot assembly...would be about impossible to investigate without removing the cam and pan though.

 

Are you absolutely sure it's the rockers and not something else?

My thinking is valve train noise is most likely being caused by parts hitting each other. It could be something is minute as the rocker bearings tapping against the races or sloppy clearance between the roller tip or trunnion to the rocker arm body itself.

Can either be wiggled; any side to side or up and down movement?

Is there any feeling of roughness when you spin them with your fingers?

Are your valve cover drip tabs still in place?

Jake

West Point ROCKS!

 

Have you tried running the motor without the covers and using a mechanics stethoscope to try to isolate the sound? I have done this and have determined that a couple of my rockers are just naturally a bit nosier that the others but in no way do I consider it a problem.

 

That means I'm in trouble since I'm running a Crane Gold with 500lbs of open spring pressure up to 7200rpm...

 

I think its safe to assume that chromeoly steel is stronger than aluminum. Based on that, if I had those engine specs, I would prefer the chromeoly.

FWIW my engine builder had a Crane gold break on the engine dyno a few weeks ago. But that was also a BBC. He then put Pro-comps on it.