Lioyd Elliot or Advanced Induction heads?
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 568
From: Elkton, Va
Lioyd Elliot or Advanced Induction heads?
Well, I've decided on a lot of things. I'll be doing Jet Hot LT's,the 230/236 w/1.6 rockers AS&M 58mm tb, DIY intake port, and true duals with 1 chamber Flows. I'm not sure yet who I'll get to do the tune, you guys give me some suggestions. I guess the biggest descision is the heads, I've heard alot of good things about the heads from Advanced Induction and even compared the #"s with the AFR 180'S. I've heard good things about Lloyd Elliot Heads also but some of the #'s I've seen aren't quite as good. Help me decide on the heads and tune. I was thinking maybe Advanced Heads and a PCM for Less tune. Does this sound good?
thanx
Vicious
thanx
Vicious
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,743
From: Mission, Kansas
Either do the AI heads and get HIS cam to match it, or do LE heads and use his cam to match the heads. They both offer cams for a good reason. Throwing in an off the shelf cam won't be as good. Honestly, the AI heads will probably be better, but will cost a fair chunk of change more that could be going elsewhere.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 956
From: Winston Salem, NC
I'd go with Lloyd personally...the heads will cost you about half of Phils, and IMO Phil is too cocky for me, whereas Lloyd has never been anything but helpful on these boards and has never come out bashing his competitors.. Considering some people are sitting right at 400RWHP with Lloyds heads, they obviously work well 
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,195
From: Springfield, IL
Originally posted by 1982z28with18s
Around here? Who has Phil's heads?
Around here? Who has Phil's heads?
"Waswa"
"Greenbeanz28" to name a few that post on this message board
me too but not on the car yet
FYI; www.advancedinduction.com you can find a couple usernames on his front page, you will also see a few of the guys putting down excellent numbers with the off the shelf "847" cam!
Steve
Banned
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,935
From: Mobile, Ala..USA
WWW.KILLIANSPORTINGSERVICE.COM
This guy knows his poop, the LT1 head pictured on that site is mine, I have since sold them. $500 to port and flow one hole. My set was his first LT1 set, they flowed 257@.550, he has since gotten 279@.600 out of a set. super nice guy. Ask for Mr. Jerry
Big Dave
This guy knows his poop, the LT1 head pictured on that site is mine, I have since sold them. $500 to port and flow one hole. My set was his first LT1 set, they flowed 257@.550, he has since gotten 279@.600 out of a set. super nice guy. Ask for Mr. Jerry
Big Dave
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 870
From: Cuyahoga Falls, OHIO
Both head porters know their stuff I'm sure. Phil is more proven of the 2. I've been racing sprint cars for a number of years now and I've learnt one thing, if you want to win, go with whats proven the most.
Grease (Waswa)
Grease (Waswa)
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 568
From: Elkton, Va
Thanx guys,
Price is always important but I'd rather spend those dollars where they will count the most. personally I think I'll choose Phil's heads based on performance #'s not personallity. I just think that the floww #'s I saw on the AI heads were better an to me that means a whole lot. what about the 230/236 cam w/1.6 rockers. Comp cams says that makes it a 232/238 &.544-.554. I haven't really heard alot from the guys running the 230/236.
Later,
Vicious
Price is always important but I'd rather spend those dollars where they will count the most. personally I think I'll choose Phil's heads based on performance #'s not personallity. I just think that the floww #'s I saw on the AI heads were better an to me that means a whole lot. what about the 230/236 cam w/1.6 rockers. Comp cams says that makes it a 232/238 &.544-.554. I haven't really heard alot from the guys running the 230/236.
Later,
Vicious
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 786
From: Charlotte, NC
I appreciate the recommendations, and I even understand much of the criticism. I certainly have gotten so frustrated with, what in my experience, are inflated claims in the past that I've voiced some things that people just didn't want to hear (especially from me). Coming into the "street scene" where there's a dozen vendors willing to claim anything to get your $ can really set me off sometimes, though I've learned to just shrug it off more easily & let people think what they want to - cause that's likely all that'll matter in the end.
If you dig around you'll see everyone claiming just about the same flow #'s... but a huge discrepancy in the power people are making. Some are consistently gaining 150-200% what others are with the same combination (displacement, valvetrain, exhaust), and those others are usualy "hoping" for more next time out. I honestly don't really want someone to choose my stuff based on flow #'s.. because if I go do something & pick up to XXXcfm with a given package, someone else will just go and claim they've got 1% more & that'll be the next 'thing' online - regardless of the actual results on the dyno or at the track. It happens time and time again
As far as Lloyd's stuff...
When I say I've had nearly everyone's product at one time or another for tweaking/improving/inspecting, that includes Lloyd as well. Now I won't go and release any #'s regarding what it flows on my bench vs. his, because I don't want to perpetuate the racing flowbenches people do already. I do honestly think that lloyds stuff is better than alot of the products you'd get from local shops who do high performance work & would likely charge similarly. Our stuff is quite different however, so I honestly think it's hard to compare the two of us fairly (lloyd and myself), b/c I believe we've come from different backgrounds. I started out of HS in racing & have been beyond fortunate regarding the help some of the top guys have given freely over the years. I think Lloyd has had to build his stuff up more like most guys would, and that probably helps him see things in a different light (especially when dealing with you guys), where I have had a hard time in the past understanding why someone would run a something of lesser quality to save a few $, or wouldn't need that last 2% out of something. Of course, I'm working on some cheaper packages yet that should still easily make 370-390rwhp, because I don't want to leave the $1200-1600 guys out of the picture either.
Where have I been for the past 2mos? To answer a few of the PM's...
We're actually moving into a new facility right now, here in Concord. I've slowed down a bit this month (Feb.), because even with my equipment in limbo between shops, I still refuse to farm out even the most menial machinework & that has me driving between two shops to still be able to do my own work. Unfortunately, machinework (not just the X-angle valvejob, etc., but how that x-angle valvejob is applied) will absolutely make or break your performance, and worst case, your longevity. Actually, I've got a banner, and am making some website changes, to offer some complete valvetrain packages etc. with the heads in a couple of weeks when we're back up & running - we'll be advertising here & elsewhere as soon as the paperwork is done. In addition to the stuff I've managed to put on my meager site, we actually do a fair amount of consulting regarding valvetrain combinations for more extreme street setups & race combinations (mostly endurance, which translates fairly well to street applications).
At any rate, we're pretty pleased & excited to work with CZ28 to see what we can do actually gearing some advertisement & packages more towards budget minded street customers. We'll be doing a GP soon with what I think is a fairly sizeable discount, that will include just about everything we do, so we're also looking forward to that. I hope many of you guys will at least consider us, or take the time to read through our FAQ (I have a ton of material to add to it, I just haven't had the time to put it online yet) - an educated consumer is his own best friend.
Take care & good luck with your projects
-Phil
If you dig around you'll see everyone claiming just about the same flow #'s... but a huge discrepancy in the power people are making. Some are consistently gaining 150-200% what others are with the same combination (displacement, valvetrain, exhaust), and those others are usualy "hoping" for more next time out. I honestly don't really want someone to choose my stuff based on flow #'s.. because if I go do something & pick up to XXXcfm with a given package, someone else will just go and claim they've got 1% more & that'll be the next 'thing' online - regardless of the actual results on the dyno or at the track. It happens time and time again
As far as Lloyd's stuff...
When I say I've had nearly everyone's product at one time or another for tweaking/improving/inspecting, that includes Lloyd as well. Now I won't go and release any #'s regarding what it flows on my bench vs. his, because I don't want to perpetuate the racing flowbenches people do already. I do honestly think that lloyds stuff is better than alot of the products you'd get from local shops who do high performance work & would likely charge similarly. Our stuff is quite different however, so I honestly think it's hard to compare the two of us fairly (lloyd and myself), b/c I believe we've come from different backgrounds. I started out of HS in racing & have been beyond fortunate regarding the help some of the top guys have given freely over the years. I think Lloyd has had to build his stuff up more like most guys would, and that probably helps him see things in a different light (especially when dealing with you guys), where I have had a hard time in the past understanding why someone would run a something of lesser quality to save a few $, or wouldn't need that last 2% out of something. Of course, I'm working on some cheaper packages yet that should still easily make 370-390rwhp, because I don't want to leave the $1200-1600 guys out of the picture either.
Where have I been for the past 2mos? To answer a few of the PM's...
We're actually moving into a new facility right now, here in Concord. I've slowed down a bit this month (Feb.), because even with my equipment in limbo between shops, I still refuse to farm out even the most menial machinework & that has me driving between two shops to still be able to do my own work. Unfortunately, machinework (not just the X-angle valvejob, etc., but how that x-angle valvejob is applied) will absolutely make or break your performance, and worst case, your longevity. Actually, I've got a banner, and am making some website changes, to offer some complete valvetrain packages etc. with the heads in a couple of weeks when we're back up & running - we'll be advertising here & elsewhere as soon as the paperwork is done. In addition to the stuff I've managed to put on my meager site, we actually do a fair amount of consulting regarding valvetrain combinations for more extreme street setups & race combinations (mostly endurance, which translates fairly well to street applications).
At any rate, we're pretty pleased & excited to work with CZ28 to see what we can do actually gearing some advertisement & packages more towards budget minded street customers. We'll be doing a GP soon with what I think is a fairly sizeable discount, that will include just about everything we do, so we're also looking forward to that. I hope many of you guys will at least consider us, or take the time to read through our FAQ (I have a ton of material to add to it, I just haven't had the time to put it online yet) - an educated consumer is his own best friend
.Take care & good luck with your projects
-Phil
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,195
From: Springfield, IL
Viscious, you would be better off letting Phil (if thats whos heads you go with) recommend a cam for you or having him refer you too someone who can spec a camshaft to your car and your needs/wants, rather then picking an off the shelf grind!
if you dont want to skimp on the heads IMO why skimp on the camshaft?! take advantage of all the potential and info
you wont be disappointed with choosing AI's work and customer service.
Steve
if you dont want to skimp on the heads IMO why skimp on the camshaft?!
take advantage of all the potential and infoyou wont be disappointed with choosing AI's work and customer service.
Steve
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,743
From: Mission, Kansas
Originally posted by simple
"Grease"
"Waswa"
"Greenbeanz28" to name a few that post on this message board
me too but not on the car yet
FYI; www.advancedinduction.com you can find a couple usernames on his front page, you will also see a few of the guys putting down excellent numbers with the off the shelf "847" cam!
Steve
"Grease"
"Waswa"
"Greenbeanz28" to name a few that post on this message board
me too but not on the car yet
FYI; www.advancedinduction.com you can find a couple usernames on his front page, you will also see a few of the guys putting down excellent numbers with the off the shelf "847" cam!
Steve
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,509
From: Red Oak Texas
I would rate Phils heads as slightly better than mine. He has repeatedly put down 400-415 RWHP with his heads and custom cam. His dyno #'s with catalog cams like the XE 230/236 are similar to mine so either the custom cam is making alot of the difference or this cam and the mail order tuning is not allowing the heads to shine as well as they could. It could be either one.
I know how important the cam selection is and that is why I got with a cam grinder to design a few cams for me. I can assure you that you will be better off with a custom cam (mine, Phils or whoevers) over a catalog cam. I am able to do these custom cam and head packages for $1100 to $1600.
I am always learning and the heads that I produce now are better than the heads that I produced 2 months ago. Those were better than the heads that I produced 6 months ago and those were better than the heads thet I produced a year ago, and so on, and so on.
I have spent alot of time increasing the low and mid lift #'s and not worrying about the .550 and .600 lift #'s. Different valve jobs, top cuts, ventuti's diameters, back cuts, shape of the shortside, etc are all things that have been plaed with.
I do not think you can go wrong with either head. I think they are closer than Phil thinks and he probably thinks the opposite. I can assuer you mine are not better thamn his but a true custom cam AND heads for $1100 to $1600 is a great bargain and at that price, EVERUONE is happy and I do not have to claim to be as good.
Lloyd
NightTrain66
I know how important the cam selection is and that is why I got with a cam grinder to design a few cams for me. I can assure you that you will be better off with a custom cam (mine, Phils or whoevers) over a catalog cam. I am able to do these custom cam and head packages for $1100 to $1600.
I am always learning and the heads that I produce now are better than the heads that I produced 2 months ago. Those were better than the heads that I produced 6 months ago and those were better than the heads thet I produced a year ago, and so on, and so on.
I have spent alot of time increasing the low and mid lift #'s and not worrying about the .550 and .600 lift #'s. Different valve jobs, top cuts, ventuti's diameters, back cuts, shape of the shortside, etc are all things that have been plaed with.
I do not think you can go wrong with either head. I think they are closer than Phil thinks and he probably thinks the opposite. I can assuer you mine are not better thamn his but a true custom cam AND heads for $1100 to $1600 is a great bargain and at that price, EVERUONE is happy and I do not have to claim to be as good.
Lloyd
NightTrain66
