WOT:

You make it all the way through 1st gear with no knock retard, then you lift and shift, and it kicks in 4deg of retard, and there is no decay at all. Might want to check the "decay" number in the program. Also increments the knock count on the lifting throttle shifts. That's the main thing that stands out. You appear to have the advance in the range of 38deg at WOT, and it makes it through 1st with no problems, but can't handle it in the upper gears..... odd.

In this log, Cell 15 is a fairly "normal" 132 on the left and 130 on the right, compared to 139/134 in the 4000rpm log. If you put any faith in the O2 readings at WOT, its running pretty rich, ranging from 930 - 980mV. Seems to run richer in the upper gears, even though there's more knock retard. Knock retard would not appear to be from running lean.

Engine is a heavy breather, with a healthy 300 GPS peak flow. MAP at peak flow indicates its losing about 2"Hg in the intake track.

Battey voltage seems to drop off about 1/2 volt at higher RPM.

 

Wow, your persistance paid off. You got double your money's worth from Engineer, and Benji was there for backup. Great community, isn't it?

With all due respect, you didn't exactly make is easy for them. Why not at least detail the major mods in your signature? Reading your posts would be more interesting for guys that don't know you, and you really would get better advice- this is a car site, so knowing what you run is kinda key.

I'd help if I could, but in this area I'm still listening and learning. Good luck.

 

WOW Thanks for all the help.I totally forgot about my mods list,sorry.

Here are a list of the complete car:

CAR:
1995 Firebird formual silver/black top,6 speed,t-top,leather

MOTOR/IGNITION:
-Brand new 96 LT4 GM crate motor with plastic valve cover
-New GM lt1 oil pan
-96 LT4 GM intake
-New Delphi 32lbs injectors
-New Delco optispark distributor
-New msd blaster coil
-New taylor spiro wire otvc side mount
-New tr55 ngk plug
-Moroso CAI
-Brand new crank hub
-Brand new ASP crank pulley
-New rebuilt and ported(52mm) stock throttle body to avoid sticking blade with ported air foil
-New knock sensor
-New oxygen sensor(on both side with new pass side O2 extension)
-New coolant sensor(both: on head to gauge and on water pump to ecm)
-New oil pressure sensor with new angle fitting
-New throttle cable(no traction control)
-New rebuilt stock water pump
-New power steering pump
-New poly motor mount(2)
-New A/C delete pulley
-New dipstick tube and dipstick
-New pcv
-New IAC
-ALL NEW gasket for everything(water pump,intake,steam pipe,TB,etc...)


EXAUST:
-New Kooks custom stainlees steel headers(1 3/4" primary to 3" collector)
-New Kooks custom stainless "y" pipe no cats(3")
-Magnaflow stainless steel cat back
-Accessories:stainless band clamp,1406 headers gasket,1" 12pt stainless steel headers bolts

CLUTCH/DRIVELINE:
-New RAM HDX clutch kit ,with new master cylindre and new oem pressure plate bolts
-Stock resurfaced flywheel(oem first time) with new oem flywheel bolts
-New pilot bushing
-Spohn chromoly HD driveshaft with spicer yoke and 1350 u-joint
-Strange 12 bolts,hd posi,33splines,3.73 gear with LPW cover with preloads caps

SUSPENSION/CHASSIS:
-Koni SA adjustable shock on stock spring
-Stranos 35mm front Hollow sway bar with poly bushing and end link
-Stranos 22mm rear hollow sway bar with poly bushing and end link
-Strut brace
-Welded subframe connector
-UMI tubular adjustable rear control arm(poly/rod end)
-UMI tubular adjustable panhard rod(poly/rod end)
-Spohn adjustable torqe arm tunnel brace mount(poly bushing)

BRAKE:
-C5 brake kit conversion
-Braided lines
-Hawks hps brake pads(4 corner)
-18"X9.5" all black ZR1 wheel
-285/35zr18 Falken GRB FK-451

MISC:
-Tune pcm by MADZ28 with lt4 knock module
-WS6 store 6.5" short stick with hurst leather shift ****
-MBA stainless steel gauge bezel
-MBA aluminium black radiator shroud cover
-ABS delete/TCS delete/AC delete/AIR delete
-Tuner cat with laptop
-Fast double bank wideband

 

Looking at what the mods are, I would have to agree. 29* of timing advance at idle is more along the lines of a heads/cam car. 20* is stock, and I'd say you'd be good with ~22*. Basically, the rule of thumb is, you should adjust the idle timing until it's building the most vacuum, and I can guarantee it's not building the most vacuum at 29* of timing advance. It's not doing bad, but it could stand to be richened up some at idle (LTFT's = 137 and 142).

In the 4000 rpm log, I noticed that when you took off from idle, you experienced a little bit of spark retard. I'm pretty sure that is because of the timing you're running in that 700-800 rpm area. Also, again, it could stand to be richened up throughout.

Injuneer pretty much covered everything in this part. The automatic 4* is kind or puzzling. I saw a spot in your log where the car hit 39* of advance at WOT (in first gear). That is too much for your setup. What kind of gas do you run (octane)?

If you wanted, you could send me your tune, and I could make some adjustments and see if we can't get rid of these little issues.

 

Ok i ve read and read the answer a couple of times,dont forget that im a french guy and i need to understand correctly so if something in my questions feel funny just tell me

So the question are for both of you(injuneer/sweetred95ta).The question may seems easy and stupid but even if i change some of the programation i would like to understand why im doing it too .

All the FACT are base on your answer and im running 91 oct gas or higher if available:

FACT:-The tune was made by Ion and he put 26degree of timing from 400rpm to 1200rpm.Then it goes up to 30.00degree and more has the rpm goes up.

QUESTION:Can someone explain me why 26degree(idle) is not good and why 38degree(WOT)is too much.I always thaugth(in wot) that the more timing you got,the more power you produce?


FACT:The car seems to be running lean in all the rpm band and the pcm correct this problem by adding a lot of fuel(7%-11% at ilde) and (17% at 4000rpm)

QUESTION:What could be making the car running lean and force th pcm to compensate that much?Is it mechanical or in the tune?


FACT:The car seems to knock when is slap the gas after a quick shift but it seems to be false knock.

QUESTION:What is "decay" In Tunercats i only found "knock fast attack rate" and "knock retard recovery rate"


Thank you again

By the way sweetred95ta i ve send you a copy of my tune.

 

FACT:-The tune was made by Ion and he put 26degree of timing from 400rpm to 1200rpm.Then it goes up to 30.00degree and more has the rpm goes up.

It creeps higher, and that appears to be the mysterious 3deg that gets added on top of the value in the timing table, possibly linked to inlet air temp.

QUESTION:Can someone explain me why 26degree(idle) is not good and why 38degree(WOT)is too much.I always thaugth(in wot) that the more timing you got,the more power you produce?

More timing makes more power, but it increases the chances of detonation. If you have too much timing, and the PCM pulls it out as knock retard, you aren't gaining anything.

FACT:The car seems to be running lean in all the rpm band and the pcm correct this problem by adding a lot of fuel(7%-11% at ilde) and (17% at 4000rpm)
QUESTION:What could be making the car running lean and force th pcm to compensate that much?Is it mechanical or in the tune?

The question is "why"? My guess is that it is a FALSE lean condition. It isn't really running lean, the PCM just thinks it is. Leaks in the exhaust system, misfires or faulty O2 sensors could cause that. If the PCM has to jack the BLM's up to 140 to make it run at stoichiometric, it should be running lean at WOT when the BLM's are only 130/132. But it isn't.... its running rich at WOT with 130/132 BLM's.

FACT:The car seems to knock when is slap the gas after a quick shift but it seems to be false knock.

My theory is that with a closed throttle shift on an M6, the PCM puts all that timing in when the throttle closes and the MAP drops (indicating the engine is no longer under load, one axis of the timing table). When you slap the throttle open after the shift, there's too much timing for an instant, and there is knock, the PCM hears it and pulls timing. Its actually explained that way in my Scanmaster writeup.


QUESTION:What is "decay" In Tunercats i only found "knock fast attack rate" and "knock retard recovery rate"

Decay is the "recovery rate". Attack tells the PCM how fast to pull the timing out, recovery tells it how fast to put the timing back in. Either someone limited your max retard to 4deg and its really in need of pulling a lot more timing, so there is no "recovery" because pulling 4deg isn't stopping the knock, or its pulling 4deg, and that solved the knock problem, but the recovery rate is set too slow and the timing doesn't get put back in. In your case, since knock count is also incrementing during the lifting throttle shifts, I'm guessing Ion limited the max retard to 4deg, and its still knocking. Is there any chance that you are getting a huge "clank" from the tranny mount or torque arm when you shift, or the engine is snapping back from the torque displacement when it is unloaded and the header is hitting the steering shaft, or the motor mounts are loose..... some sort of mech noise that is strong enough to vibrate through the engine block and activate the knock sensor?

 

I really feel guilty now.... because I have some people who have sent me their data logs up to a month ago, and I still haven't taken the time to look at theirs. My apologies, if they are reading this thread.

 

So putting back the 20 degree should solve this
So i need to back up the timing advance a little...What number should i see at WOT?
If at WOT there is no lean sign and it seem to be lean only in idle it could be a tune issue?I already check my exhaust system entirely and there is no leak but i will double check.
I just read it when i search in the pcm forum

Yep Ion put a max of 4 degree of retard.So i should play with the "recovery rate".And yes i got a big clank with the chassis mount sphon TA.I will check for loose motor mounts/tranny mount/vibration.But it would lead to false knock so i could solve it with the recovery rate

 

Ok today ive load a slightly modify tune with the help from a member.

I ve only do one at idle to get your feedback i ll probably gonna do some WOT and 4000rpm log after the feedback.

Here it is:

http://www.mediafire.com/?deh9o4tszoy

It seems to be perfect now in the left(driver) LTermcount wich is steady at 129 but the right one (pass) LTermcount is at 137 wich seems a little high and the difference between the 2 is 8...

So feel free to give me hints.Im so happy now my problem are really near to be fixed.

 

Tuesday bump.

Would need advice to know what to do

 

Go ahead and give us the other two logs (4000 rpm and WOT) as well. You won't be in danger of hurting anything. I'd like to see what the BLM's are doing under something other than idle. Also, like Injuneer stated earlier, the split may be due to an exhaust leak.

 

Here are the 2 files that i ve made this morning after works(night shift).

4000rpm with new tune:
http://www.mediafire.com/?dxpg3m1i4ym

WOT with new tune(i missshifted the 3rd ):
http://www.mediafire.com/?esowfylrev5


And the idle from post no 24:
http://www.mediafire.com/?deh9o4tszoy