To all that went from A4 to M6 how much low end did you loose?
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,058
From: near waco tx.
Originally posted by tom3
for one, the 4L60E will shift faster and also, you can't slip the clutch to the same extent.
Back in my industrial parks racing days, I had an A4 with the accumulators filled up in the valve body (= instant shifts, no way a human can beat that but it's not good for parts' life) / high stall / Gears / Drag radials (and we were using VHT in the street) combo; we were never really racing a full 1/4, it was more like 2/3rd of it or so; I had many people that wanted to race me because I was beating lots of cars; the reality is that if we had raced a full 1/4 or on the highway, I would have lost to many of these, but I could put so much space between myself and them in the first two seconds that it would take much more than a 1/8 mile to even have a chance to catch up. I've beaten people with larger engines, nitrous, etc that would have made me look like a civic on the highway, BPUed Supras could never get traction and power in time to get even close, etc.
so, the A4 has worked extremly well in this context; but yes, third gears sucks in the A4; You put space between you and the other car in 1 and 2; when you hit 3rd, you have to hope you've put enough distance and with the right combo you usually do.
For anything else (highway, top speed, twisties, etc), M6 is the way to go. For the fun favctor the M6 is better.
For the everyday stuff, I am really happy I switched to the M6, each time I am next to a car at a stop, I wish I had my old setup.
for one, the 4L60E will shift faster and also, you can't slip the clutch to the same extent.
Back in my industrial parks racing days, I had an A4 with the accumulators filled up in the valve body (= instant shifts, no way a human can beat that but it's not good for parts' life) / high stall / Gears / Drag radials (and we were using VHT in the street) combo; we were never really racing a full 1/4, it was more like 2/3rd of it or so; I had many people that wanted to race me because I was beating lots of cars; the reality is that if we had raced a full 1/4 or on the highway, I would have lost to many of these, but I could put so much space between myself and them in the first two seconds that it would take much more than a 1/8 mile to even have a chance to catch up. I've beaten people with larger engines, nitrous, etc that would have made me look like a civic on the highway, BPUed Supras could never get traction and power in time to get even close, etc.
so, the A4 has worked extremly well in this context; but yes, third gears sucks in the A4; You put space between you and the other car in 1 and 2; when you hit 3rd, you have to hope you've put enough distance and with the right combo you usually do.
For anything else (highway, top speed, twisties, etc), M6 is the way to go. For the fun favctor the M6 is better.
For the everyday stuff, I am really happy I switched to the M6, each time I am next to a car at a stop, I wish I had my old setup.
sorry to burst your bubble but i can shift faster than your auto.
i have a freind that lives 3 miles from me and he has a built a4 that runs 300lbs of line pressure and his shifts are hard. and he will not gain on me between my shifts nor does the any of the a4s ive raced (remember im not saying havent been beat by a a4.) just that he hasnt out shifted me. yes some do out run me but between my shifts they dont gain any more than when in gear.
this was posted on page 3
Very true...at a stoplight race anything can and does happen...I would say in situations of 0-end of first gear the auto may have a slight advantage on the street...however...if you're good at driving a stick any problems you encounter you should be able to adjust to...too much wheel spin...bogging the motor things like that...if you're on your game all conditions equal the 6 speed will win each and everytime...some of you said the truly fast cars run auto's thats not true look at taner, he's got a believe a 95Z28 and runs the 6 speed he runs deep 9's. Also for those who say its impossible to shift faster then an auto it depends on the transmission...to fully complete a shift a modded 4L60E takes .35ish or so seconds a stock one is about .5 seconds to fully engage the gears...a good manual driver can do it in .15 to .25 seconds depending on the length of the throws clutch travel and things of that nature...in an F body you can pull off shifts in the .30 range easily and as quick as .22 if your able to shift like a pro and I do mean like a pro. An article I read in CHP several years ago had timing for various drivers/tranny combos and shifting. Fastest that a pro race driver did in an F body with the factory shifter/tranny was .22 seconds. The magazine guys were clicking off .25-.30's all day. Its not that hard if you drive it like you stole it.
but this is not even worth metioning. back to the original question. yes a a4 is better for the track its easier and allows you to focus on other stuff that needs atention. but my problem is that so people on here are saying that a m6 cant shift as fast as a a4, or cant do as good in the quarter. and thats not true.
yes i would like to say that a m6 is better all arround but its just not true. but i will not say that a m6 cant handle its own at the track against a a4 and a equal engine.
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 520
From: Michigan is a decent state.
Originally posted by 97Z-M6
sorry to burst your bubble but i can shift faster than your auto.
i have a freind that lives 3 miles from me and he has a built a4 that runs 300lbs of line pressure and his shifts are hard. and he will not gain on me between my shifts nor does the any of the a4s ive raced (remember im not saying havent been beat by a a4.) just that he hasnt out shifted me. yes some do out run me but between my shifts they dont gain any more than when in gear.
this was posted on page 3
Very true...at a stoplight race anything can and does happen...I would say in situations of 0-end of first gear the auto may have a slight advantage on the street...however...if you're good at driving a stick any problems you encounter you should be able to adjust to...too much wheel spin...bogging the motor things like that...if you're on your game all conditions equal the 6 speed will win each and everytime...some of you said the truly fast cars run auto's thats not true look at taner, he's got a believe a 95Z28 and runs the 6 speed he runs deep 9's. Also for those who say its impossible to shift faster then an auto it depends on the transmission...to fully complete a shift a modded 4L60E takes .35ish or so seconds a stock one is about .5 seconds to fully engage the gears...a good manual driver can do it in .15 to .25 seconds depending on the length of the throws clutch travel and things of that nature...in an F body you can pull off shifts in the .30 range easily and as quick as .22 if your able to shift like a pro and I do mean like a pro. An article I read in CHP several years ago had timing for various drivers/tranny combos and shifting. Fastest that a pro race driver did in an F body with the factory shifter/tranny was .22 seconds. The magazine guys were clicking off .25-.30's all day. Its not that hard if you drive it like you stole it.
but this is not even worth metioning. back to the original question. yes a a4 is better for the track its easier and allows you to focus on other stuff that needs atention. but my problem is that so people on here are saying that a m6 cant shift as fast as a a4, or cant do as good in the quarter. and thats not true.
yes i would like to say that a m6 is better all arround but its just not true. but i will not say that a m6 cant handle its own at the track against a a4 and a equal engine.
sorry to burst your bubble but i can shift faster than your auto.
i have a freind that lives 3 miles from me and he has a built a4 that runs 300lbs of line pressure and his shifts are hard. and he will not gain on me between my shifts nor does the any of the a4s ive raced (remember im not saying havent been beat by a a4.) just that he hasnt out shifted me. yes some do out run me but between my shifts they dont gain any more than when in gear.
this was posted on page 3
Very true...at a stoplight race anything can and does happen...I would say in situations of 0-end of first gear the auto may have a slight advantage on the street...however...if you're good at driving a stick any problems you encounter you should be able to adjust to...too much wheel spin...bogging the motor things like that...if you're on your game all conditions equal the 6 speed will win each and everytime...some of you said the truly fast cars run auto's thats not true look at taner, he's got a believe a 95Z28 and runs the 6 speed he runs deep 9's. Also for those who say its impossible to shift faster then an auto it depends on the transmission...to fully complete a shift a modded 4L60E takes .35ish or so seconds a stock one is about .5 seconds to fully engage the gears...a good manual driver can do it in .15 to .25 seconds depending on the length of the throws clutch travel and things of that nature...in an F body you can pull off shifts in the .30 range easily and as quick as .22 if your able to shift like a pro and I do mean like a pro. An article I read in CHP several years ago had timing for various drivers/tranny combos and shifting. Fastest that a pro race driver did in an F body with the factory shifter/tranny was .22 seconds. The magazine guys were clicking off .25-.30's all day. Its not that hard if you drive it like you stole it.
but this is not even worth metioning. back to the original question. yes a a4 is better for the track its easier and allows you to focus on other stuff that needs atention. but my problem is that so people on here are saying that a m6 cant shift as fast as a a4, or cant do as good in the quarter. and thats not true.
yes i would like to say that a m6 is better all arround but its just not true. but i will not say that a m6 cant handle its own at the track against a a4 and a equal engine.
and tanner has the fastest 6 speed car. explain why there are so many auto cars in 7s and 8s? and how many are in 9s while there are so few for manuals?
why is rich krause converting to a Th-400?
You are missing the point. its called a torque converter. a propperly stalled auto WILL beat a manual assuming both are driven perfectly. comprende?
I want to take a bat and knock you off your 6 speed horse. and its not in the shift times either. they are almost negligable.
Have you ever seen a dynograph of an auto with say a 4000stall converter? look at the torque output.
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 1,208
From: Tulsa
Originally posted by BradZ28
So am I hearing that a M6 Z/28 with 300rwhp can beat an A4 Z/28 with 300rwhp if everything else (tires, 60', driver, weight, bolt-ons) are all the same?
So am I hearing that a M6 Z/28 with 300rwhp can beat an A4 Z/28 with 300rwhp if everything else (tires, 60', driver, weight, bolt-ons) are all the same?
Ashkan you and 97Z-M6 are both kinda right...a manual tranny when driven properly will outperform an auto and it WILL shift faster and in some cases much faster...now the torque converter thing as you mentioned is great and it does a awesome job of putting the car in its power band but it'll also weaken a car from a roll because there is slightly more parasitic loss whenever the converter gets looser (ie 2800, 3000, 3200, 3600 etc)
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 520
From: Michigan is a decent state.
Originally posted by IrocManiac
300rwhp is 300rwhp period...it'll take slightly more to get that power out of an auto equipped car...the only advantage the 6 speed would have at that point is closer spaced gears. Which would help...
Ashkan you and 97Z-M6 are both kinda right...a manual tranny when driven properly will outperform an auto and it WILL shift faster and in some cases much faster...now the torque converter thing as you mentioned is great and it does a awesome job of putting the car in its power band but it'll also weaken a car from a roll because there is slightly more parasitic loss whenever the converter gets looser (ie 2800, 3000, 3200, 3600 etc)
300rwhp is 300rwhp period...it'll take slightly more to get that power out of an auto equipped car...the only advantage the 6 speed would have at that point is closer spaced gears. Which would help...
Ashkan you and 97Z-M6 are both kinda right...a manual tranny when driven properly will outperform an auto and it WILL shift faster and in some cases much faster...now the torque converter thing as you mentioned is great and it does a awesome job of putting the car in its power band but it'll also weaken a car from a roll because there is slightly more parasitic loss whenever the converter gets looser (ie 2800, 3000, 3200, 3600 etc)
but my problem is that so people on here are saying that a m6 cant shift as fast as a a4, or cant do as good in the quarter.
A perfectly driven auto will be about 2-3 tenths ahead. Few and far between can drive that well.
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,058
From: near waco tx.
Originally posted by Ashkan Mehryari
and tanner has the fastest 6 speed car. explain why there are so many auto cars in 7s and 8s? and how many are in 9s while there are so few for manuals?
why is rich krause converting to a Th-400?
You are missing the point. its called a torque converter. a propperly stalled auto WILL beat a manual assuming both are driven perfectly. comprende?
I want to take a bat and knock you off your 6 speed horse. and its not in the shift times either. they are almost negligable.
Have you ever seen a dynograph of an auto with say a 4000stall converter? look at the torque output.
and tanner has the fastest 6 speed car. explain why there are so many auto cars in 7s and 8s? and how many are in 9s while there are so few for manuals?
why is rich krause converting to a Th-400?
You are missing the point. its called a torque converter. a propperly stalled auto WILL beat a manual assuming both are driven perfectly. comprende?
I want to take a bat and knock you off your 6 speed horse. and its not in the shift times either. they are almost negligable.
Have you ever seen a dynograph of an auto with say a 4000stall converter? look at the torque output.
back to the original question. yes a a4 is better for the track its easier and allows you to focus on other stuff that needs atention. but my problem is that so people on here are saying that a m6 cant shift as fast as a a4, or cant do as good in the quarter. and thats not true.
yes i would like to say that a m6 is better all arround but its just not true. but i will not say that a m6 cant handle its own at the track against a a4 and a equal engine
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 520
From: Michigan is a decent state.
Originally posted by 97Z-M6
i guess your get so pissed when someone disagree with you, that you cant read. here it is again
back to the original question. yes a a4 is better for the track its easier and allows you to focus on other stuff that needs atention. but my problem is that so people on here are saying that a m6 cant shift as fast as a a4, or cant do as good in the quarter. and thats not true.
yes i would like to say that a m6 is better all arround but its just not true. but i will not say that a m6 cant handle its own at the track against a a4 and a equal engine
i guess your get so pissed when someone disagree with you, that you cant read. here it is again
back to the original question. yes a a4 is better for the track its easier and allows you to focus on other stuff that needs atention. but my problem is that so people on here are saying that a m6 cant shift as fast as a a4, or cant do as good in the quarter. and thats not true.
yes i would like to say that a m6 is better all arround but its just not true. but i will not say that a m6 cant handle its own at the track against a a4 and a equal engine
and people dont swap to an A4 because they are too busy holding the wheel strait...
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 1,208
From: Tulsa
Originally posted by Ashkan Mehryari
handle its own and win are 2 different cases.
and people dont swap to an A4 because they are too busy holding the wheel strait...
handle its own and win are 2 different cases.
and people dont swap to an A4 because they are too busy holding the wheel strait...
Look for a bolt on car the M6 is better hands down assuming you can drive...I have yet to see stock vs stock or bolt on M6 loose to the same bolt on or stock car that was an auto if the driver was any good...I ran a 14.02 with my car and not great 60 ft's thats before the exhaust and with those heavy *** chrome wheels...I'd assume if I had launched a little better and had the factory wheels 13.80s were in the car at 101 or 102 mph...not many auto LT1's stock can do that...a few can but they tend to be 14.0-14.20s when driven well at 98-100mph. Many M6's can go 13.80-14.0 at 100-102 mph DESPITE their minor inconvenience off the line (which honestly isn't all that bad). There are plenty of people that swap from A4s to M6's as well...If you're running 10's or 9's or 8's autos provide a great advantage in consistancy but to say the M6's can only handle their own and not necessarily win is a gross mis statement...more often then not in the real world the M6 wins. Drivers being equal of course
edit...I had the chrome wheels but not the catback when I ran at the track...just re readit and it looks wierd..
Last edited by IrocManiac; Aug 28, 2003 at 11:29 AM.
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,058
From: near waco tx.
Originally posted by Ashkan Mehryari
handle its own and win are 2 different cases.
and people dont swap to an A4 because they are too busy holding the wheel strait...
handle its own and win are 2 different cases.
and people dont swap to an A4 because they are too busy holding the wheel strait...
im done talking to you. your set that a a4 is the only way to go and that everyhting else sucks. but let me ask have you ever lost to a m6 before. becuase the way you talk sounds like ou believe that if you have a a4 you cant be beat be a m6. so go live your little lie.
i tried to make valid points, and hold a discusion with you. but hey life goes on. by the way im not worry why rick is changing. if you have time to worry about what other people are doing, youve got to much time on your hands. i even agrred that a a4 is better at the track. but i guess i didnt say it well enough, or diddnt get down on my knees and bow down to a4 god. you can have that job.
and rick if you read this good luck with your swap.
Thread Starter
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 240
From: Greenville, SC
Wow did this thread ever turn into a A4 Vs. M6 arument.
Well to end this thread.(so please stop posting on it) I figure for the kind of racing I do a automatic would probably be a little faster...
With that being said i am almost done with my M6 conversion.
Thanks Guys
Shawn
Well to end this thread.(so please stop posting on it) I figure for the kind of racing I do a automatic would probably be a little faster...
With that being said i am almost done with my M6 conversion.
Thanks Guys
Shawn
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 1,208
From: Tulsa
Originally posted by Shawn W
Wow did this thread ever turn into a A4 Vs. M6 arument.
Well to end this thread.(so please stop posting on it) I figure for the kind of racing I do a automatic would probably be a little faster...
With that being said i am almost done with my M6 conversion.
Thanks Guys
Shawn
Wow did this thread ever turn into a A4 Vs. M6 arument.
Well to end this thread.(so please stop posting on it) I figure for the kind of racing I do a automatic would probably be a little faster...
With that being said i am almost done with my M6 conversion.
Thanks Guys
Shawn
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,320
From: Alta Loma, CA
Originally posted by IrocManiac
...a manual tranny when driven properly will outperform an auto and it WILL shift faster and in some cases much faster
...a manual tranny when driven properly will outperform an auto and it WILL shift faster and in some cases much faster
If you want to say that the difference in the amount it takes an auto to shift compared to a manual is so small that it doesn't make a difference, that's fine, and an arguable statement. However, saying that the manual can shift faster is wrong. Period, end of discussion on that point.
I don't want people reading crap like that and spewing it out later.
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 1,208
From: Tulsa
Originally posted by snorkelface
I hate posting in these pissing matches, and I'm not saying either tranny is better, but it is a physical IMPOSSIBILITY to shift manually shift faster than a proper running auto with adequate line pressure. This is not an argument, it's a FACT. it doesn't matter how races go between someone and their friend a couple of miles away goes. Other factors can come into play, such as power, gearing, forward momentum, etc. Also, the differences in shift times could even be smaller than detectable by a human without test equipment, but the auto is still shifting faster, no matter what your flawed perception may be.
If you want to say that the difference in the amount it takes an auto to shift compared to a manual is so small that it doesn't make a difference, that's fine, and an arguable statement. However, saying that the manual can shift faster is wrong. Period, end of discussion on that point.
I don't want people reading crap like that and spewing it out later.
I hate posting in these pissing matches, and I'm not saying either tranny is better, but it is a physical IMPOSSIBILITY to shift manually shift faster than a proper running auto with adequate line pressure. This is not an argument, it's a FACT. it doesn't matter how races go between someone and their friend a couple of miles away goes. Other factors can come into play, such as power, gearing, forward momentum, etc. Also, the differences in shift times could even be smaller than detectable by a human without test equipment, but the auto is still shifting faster, no matter what your flawed perception may be.
If you want to say that the difference in the amount it takes an auto to shift compared to a manual is so small that it doesn't make a difference, that's fine, and an arguable statement. However, saying that the manual can shift faster is wrong. Period, end of discussion on that point.
I don't want people reading crap like that and spewing it out later.
how do you shift that fast? I first learned from a professional drag racer on how to properly shift so maybe thats why I shift so dang fast when need be...the fastest shifting street going tranny right now is the SMG offered by BMW and it can snap off shifts in .15 seconds its basically a manual thats got the shifts computer controlled similar to what the F1 circuit uses and someone else just came out with a tranny that does it in .08 seconds...but we're talking about expensive trannies...the ferrari transmissions even when on their highest setting shift slower than a manual tranny it takes them .3 seconds or so to pull off a shift...I think the fastest was .28 for a 360 or 575M I can't remember which and it was ferrari's fastest shifting tranny to date...a profession race driver in a 360 modena does it in .18 seconds. Manual drivers that are good can and DO shift better than an auto tranny. PERIOD.
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 1,208
From: Tulsa
http://www.converter.cc/patrick_g.htm
According to that the stock tranny takes .80 seconds to perform a shift....40 for a heavily moddified 4L60E...
The SMG II tranny from BMW does it in .08 seconds in its firmest sportiest mode and .15 in the next setting..
http://www.automotiveforums.com/topic/34993-1.html
According to that the stock tranny takes .80 seconds to perform a shift....40 for a heavily moddified 4L60E...
The SMG II tranny from BMW does it in .08 seconds in its firmest sportiest mode and .15 in the next setting..
http://www.automotiveforums.com/topic/34993-1.html
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 319
From: Enid, Oklahoma
This all comes down to a bunch of nonsence, drive what you got, want to argue take it to the track not to the boards.there is alot of logical replies in this post but .80 seconds to shift is crazy, thatd mean if im a good standard driver say .25 or whatever you guys are saying id gain a whole second or more in the 1/4 if i changed to a standard. i mean seriously we all know that isnt true.
Lets leave it at you drive what you got, you choose what you want to get, its all on personal preference.
i mean seriously we all know that isnt true.Lets leave it at you drive what you got, you choose what you want to get, its all on personal preference.
