markinkc69z

I have FAST software and you offered up data. Where can I download the logs? PM me for my email address if you can't ftp. I'll assume that knock retard is turned on and logged via GM knock module.

markinkc69z

Ya okay, so I did the math.

methanol sg - .795
gallon water 8.33 lb/gal
gallon methanol 8.33 * .795 = 6.62 lb/gal

25 gph = 165.56 lb/hr

bsfc blown methanol 1.1

165.56 / 1.1 = 150.51 hp supported

So using your example of raising the boost another 15+ psi with your straight methanol at 25 gph are you saying you're only getting 10hp per psi? If so you've got a problem. If you're just throwing crap together for the post then you have a problem. No data logs, no IAT data, no dyno data but yet just a link in your sig to "alkycontrol".

I posted the link to a single test done for the government with dozens of other tests in the search link. There is excellent info there because detonation limited engine performance was a serious national security issue when our aircraft were powered by pistons. The government spent millions researching detonation and ways to extend the performance of aircraft. I read the other thread where today's popular "tuners" were claimed to run 100% methanol. I don't care what its claimed they run. We're here to discuss the technical merits and pitfalls of various parts and solid research and performance data allows an individual to come up with their own conclusions.

Please again, post up some data, not marketing material, heresay or Corvette tuner stuff lol.

I'm not trying to be a 400lb gorilla but I want hard data of why water isn't the necessary ingredient suppressing detonation in water injection.

engineermike

First, Julio races turbo Buicks last time I checked. The little 231 v6 with 160 cfm heads doesn't pick up the 20 - 25 hp/psi that LS1 folks are used to.

Second, I have plenty of logs of my own Methanol runs. I opened one random log file where I was running 24 psi boost (26 peak) in the dead heat of a South Louisiana summer. IAT was running at 103 deg F. I hit the gas and it started to rise up to 105 deg F, then the Methanol came on and cooled it all the way down to 86 deg F, then it rose back up to 90 deg F by the end of the run. That's right, 26 psi boost and 16 deg below ambient temperature. The knock retard spiked when I first hit the gas (like it always does), then fell back to zero and stayed there. The interesting thing was that the IAT fell all the way to 72 deg after I let off since the residual Methanol was evaporating and the air was no longer being heated by the turbo.

Mike

markinkc69z

Yes I was able to comprehend he was referring to a Buick v-6. I didn't realize he was running 30+ psi on a stock engine without preparation. Truly remarkable and a testament to his ability.

IAT below ambient is fairly normal and repeatable when fuel is vaporized in the intake stream/plenum such as with a blow through carb or water/methanol injection. I suppose that's why it used. Who woulda thought.

Alvin@pcmforless.com

That is like handicapping yourself so that you can run more boost. We are trying to tell you there are better ways of doing this.


Right, the point is you can take heat out so you can add more fuel and air. BUT by throwing water in the process to take heat out you are taking heat out of combustion.. pure and simple, no way around it. Why not cool your intake, boost flame travel speed, AND add work to your cycle! By using water you are throwing work out the tail pipe in the form of superheated vapor.



Wow you don’t say. A moderately conservative blower tune with 93 octane does the exact same thing. 14.7/11.5 = 27% fuel that goes right out the tail pipe..

Likewise.. I’ve had a few cars on the dyno


Yep, on a humid day you need more air (humid) than in a dry case to have a stoich burn. This is easy to play with by doing a chemical balance on humid air and the fuel of your choice.. Remember the moles of water go thru the combustion process and with it take heat. Same exact reason why for POWER 100% straight methanol is a better choice than some mix of water and methanol

New one for me! I’m going to try to build a engine that burns only fuel in liquid state. Seriously, who are you trying to fool. Any fuel used by the engine has to vaporize first.



Methanol has some serous advantages. It adds heat (work) to the cycle only after removing it from the intake charge first. It does not remove heat from the combustion process. It vaporizes quickly and with a higher specific heat, so it does a good job pulling temperatures down. Its adiabatic flame temp is LOWER than gasoline which makes it nice for capping detonation. Its induction period and AIT is also such that its harder to detonate wtih. Its flame travel speed is HIGHER than gasoline. And its flame travel speed is much much higher than a cycle involving water.


Flame travel speed is serous business when talking about the efficiency of an engine.

markinkc69z

Any fuel in excess of stoich is wasted from an energy standpoint and is used to cool the cylinder or intake charge in an effort to combat detonation and pre-ignition and allow for the desired tuneup. Running an engine rich on methanol as an enrichment fuel does not make extra power from burning methanol, oxygen is required to burn the fuel and as its richer than stoich there isn't any oxygen left for the burn. The engine doesn't pick and choose whether to burn gasoline or methanol. Rich is rich. Heat removed from vaporization increases air density and cools the combustion space and end gases. That heat is lost out the exhaust where the energy is dissipated and placed back into the atmosphere. Methanol absorbs more heat than gasoline and as an enrichment fuel only that is its only contribution.

For this pupose water is an excellent coolant.

I should also add that power increases seen from a wategate controlled turbo system may be more dramatic than with a supercharger as the cooler, higher density charge will also drop in pressure for which the turbocharger compensates for by increasing the mass flow through the system allowing more fuel to be burned. This is assuming a progressive water injection strategy.

rskrause

I think we are talking past each other now. The M group is saying that methanol is a superior "boost fluid" to water. The W group is saying the opposite. Both may be right because the main M proponent is talking about small V6's with inadequate (?iron) heads running a turbo to produce 30lbs of boost and the W group is primarily referring to street/strip V8's using unleaded pump gas, with centrifugal blowers and much lower boost and with a knock retard system. Also Julio is using very large amounts of methanol. I wonder what his results would be if he just mixed up some "M20" and ditched the "alkycontrol" system? I wonder if he did that and used his system to inject water? Could he raise the boost even more? Could he make even more power?

No one here knows everything, there are a lot of experiments left to try. But the best rigorous data available suggest that water is the best practical antidetonation fluid for a supercharged motor.

I think we are going to have to agee to disagree on this one. I do have a question for Julio: what gasoline are you using? Pump unleaded? That may be another difference between the models we are using.

Rich

Julio

Email me at idoxlr8_70@yahoo.com I can send you .logs. Let me know if you have the "old" c-com or new XFI..Most of the new data is on the XFI.

This is a recent thread on TB.com
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/alc...s-without.html

Should be pretty simple on an untuned car One run was at 8 PM, the other was the next morning. Outside air was a little cooler on the night run, but non-the less.. you can see injector duty cycle come down with the methanol as well as intake air temp.

HTH

Julio

Mike, your right on

Julio

Rich, this thread has moved nicely . I have tried mixing water in, and everytime.. the same result was a loss in MPH. Pretty much all of my data I personally do on a 1/4 mile track. I dont like dyno's becuase of the time the motor is on the roller.. unlike a track surface I can go through way more time at WOT. My IAT's are slammed to ambient or a few wdegree's above on my own car. Case in point, I will see on an 80 degree day ~190 IAT at 26 PSI without the injection, with its at ambient ~80-85 df. My nose on the car is not condusive to a FM IC, unlike some of my Buick friends that run BIG FM's on their cars.. they will see approx 30-35 DF increase over ambient whereas I see 100+DF.

Fuel I use is standard 93 octane unleaded, and I try and keep the same gas station.. flavor of the month is BP93. At BG I ran Chevron93.

Not saying I know it all, I feel fortunate to be involved with a lot of shops doing tuning on LS1's and the results thereof. 3.5 years in business fulltime.. 5 years using injection.. I get some notches on my belt. And develop my biases from feedback recieved from tuners on the subject.

I understand the argueement of water as it works, have read the papers, and understand how it works. In a practical sense, every tuner I know off that has tuned on both mediums.. will prefer straight. It is way more forgiving to tuning mistakes. Less time on the rollers $$, less issues with outside temp changes in the tuning.. the cooler it gets outside, the more issues there are with water.. meaning customers are happy, tuneup stays stable, detonation is kept in control, win win scenario.

Are there scenario's I feel 50/50 is better. Absolutely. Perfect example are engines that cannot be tuned. meaning no ability to make changes to fuel or ignition maps. Example is a Dodge Neon SRT4. If you run straight methanol, it will drop AF to 9:1 and lose power. If you run straight water then the engine leans out.. If you run "Mix" now you can tailor your AF targets up and down based on mix used.

On an application where tuning is available.. meaning changes to injector duty cycle.. straight alcohol is bullet proof.

Julio

Jeff 96 SS

I use pure meth on my high boost supercharged LT1. I never tried water because the pure meth works great in my application. I also run C16 so it helps alot even with the race gas. I'm sure water works fine or maybe even better in some applications. I don't think we can say it only works on the turbo GN applications. I see IATs over 300 on a 1/4 pass (NO IC) All the logs I have are with the iat before my alky nozzles so I don't have hard data on how much it actually cools the charge. I do spray a good amount of meth with two big nozzles and high pressure so some of the alky is used as fuel but with my 95# injectors running over 80% duty cycle it can't be much.

engineermike

There is one situation where water is better. Pump Gas Drags doesn't allow Methanol (for obvious reasons), but they do allow water.

Joe S

Anyone have any idea how denatured alcohol compares to Methanol?

rskrause

Ethanol does not have as high a heat of vaporization as methanol.

Rich

Joe S

OK.
So if I am understanding correctly, for making power, it is better than water because it will function as a fuel enrichment, but not as good as methanol?