Why it's WATER injection
12-21-2006, 08:39 AM
#17
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For a given volume of water/coolant injection there is a finite amount of heat/energy that it will absorb and remove from the cylinder.
NO there is not, not the way youmean it. You put water thru a combustion process and YOU WILL take heat out of the combustion process.
12-21-2006, 08:57 AM
#18
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12-21-2006, 09:02 AM
#19
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Mo data
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/4...9201817f00.htm
Same car a little faster. No water was used.
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/4...9201817f00.htm
Same car a little faster. No water was used.
12-21-2006, 02:33 PM
#21
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But, of course, it still makes more hp if the additional boost that can be used is applied. Rich
12-21-2006, 03:37 PM
#22
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This thread is like saying McDonalds hamburgers are the best tasting hamburgers you can buy. See anyone not ever tasted a burger will argue its meat, bread, cheese, etc.. all the same as the Applebees Filet burger.
When you start running high boost, high timing, start to squeeze every last ounce of available power from a combination.. that is when the experience is gain. Until then its all internet bench racing "Car should run an easy 9 second pass".. nothing easy about it.
I have tuned way too many cars to develop my position in my statement more power will be made with 100% straight racing alcohol injection over any mix thereof. Maybe its what works for me.. but it does for way too many racers.
If your car doesnt detonate, or slightly detonates.. water injection will stop the detonation. And will bring power down as well. If the detonation is severe... water will not stop it like alcohol can.
On a turbo buick, you can get 15-16 PSI typical on pump gas 93 octane. Add water injection.. same engine with tuning we can get 19-20 PSI boost.. add mix 50/50 same engine can now be taken to 24-25 PSI before "Knock" starts showing on the scantool. Same engine now we utilize 100% methanol on top of the pump gas it can taken 30+ PSI without a trace of "knock". Been done 100's of time, same experiment, different cars.. same result.
See if the goal was 20 PSI..or 24 PSI.. water/mix would get the job done. Once the timing and boost goes up past that.. fugedaboutit.
Whether you choose to believe this or not.. thats optional. Can lead a horse to water, cant make it drink
When you start running high boost, high timing, start to squeeze every last ounce of available power from a combination.. that is when the experience is gain. Until then its all internet bench racing "Car should run an easy 9 second pass".. nothing easy about it.
I have tuned way too many cars to develop my position in my statement more power will be made with 100% straight racing alcohol injection over any mix thereof. Maybe its what works for me.. but it does for way too many racers.
If your car doesnt detonate, or slightly detonates.. water injection will stop the detonation. And will bring power down as well. If the detonation is severe... water will not stop it like alcohol can.
On a turbo buick, you can get 15-16 PSI typical on pump gas 93 octane. Add water injection.. same engine with tuning we can get 19-20 PSI boost.. add mix 50/50 same engine can now be taken to 24-25 PSI before "Knock" starts showing on the scantool. Same engine now we utilize 100% methanol on top of the pump gas it can taken 30+ PSI without a trace of "knock". Been done 100's of time, same experiment, different cars.. same result.
See if the goal was 20 PSI..or 24 PSI.. water/mix would get the job done. Once the timing and boost goes up past that.. fugedaboutit.
Whether you choose to believe this or not.. thats optional. Can lead a horse to water, cant make it drink
12-21-2006, 06:06 PM
#23
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What i'm trying to say is that if your motor can run 30 PSI on C16.. it can run 30 PSI on 93 octane pump gas and methanol injection.
The Buick from factory has a small IC. Without an IC, typical limits are 20 PSI. Every lb of boost =11 degree's. 20 x11=220 + ambient(80)=300 degree's. With alcohol injection, that temp can be brought down to ~150 DF.
So 15 PSI boost also depends on what timing is being run. Big difference between 14 degree's and 24 degree's. On pump gas the norm is to drop timing hard. But this raises exhuast gas temps hard too. So running 14 degree's timing has its share of consquences. Higher the timing, the less EGT.. but makes the engine prone to detonating. Here if you have octane, you crank the timing.. egt's come down.. motor is happier making more power.
Tuning allows to maximize your particular setup, and make decisons whats the next step. Guessing is bad, and always leads to avoidable broken parts. Data aquisition is the new thing for keeping an eye on things happening. Pay attentions and give your engine what it tells you it likes.. the rest is simple.
That knock sensor tells a story in itself.. if it doesnt knock.. you'll be able to stretch parts out to unbelieveable levele.
My car has run 132+ in the 1/4 weighing with driver 3800 lbs. Its 6 cylinders, cast pistons, cast crank, 2 bolt main block, even OEM rings.. on 93 octane plus methanol injection. This months GM HiTech in the recap from the Nationals in BG is a picture of it with the front tires up. It ran 10.57 and 132.7 with a filled to the rim tank of 93 per the class it competed in. Won the class, fastest ET, fastest MPH, most consistant.
This water arguement i've been reading about it for years.. after a thousand+ dyno pulls.. you start giving up on the issues with water and tuning thereof.
HTH
The Buick from factory has a small IC. Without an IC, typical limits are 20 PSI. Every lb of boost =11 degree's. 20 x11=220 + ambient(80)=300 degree's. With alcohol injection, that temp can be brought down to ~150 DF.
So 15 PSI boost also depends on what timing is being run. Big difference between 14 degree's and 24 degree's. On pump gas the norm is to drop timing hard. But this raises exhuast gas temps hard too. So running 14 degree's timing has its share of consquences. Higher the timing, the less EGT.. but makes the engine prone to detonating. Here if you have octane, you crank the timing.. egt's come down.. motor is happier making more power.
Tuning allows to maximize your particular setup, and make decisons whats the next step. Guessing is bad, and always leads to avoidable broken parts. Data aquisition is the new thing for keeping an eye on things happening. Pay attentions and give your engine what it tells you it likes.. the rest is simple.
That knock sensor tells a story in itself.. if it doesnt knock.. you'll be able to stretch parts out to unbelieveable levele.
My car has run 132+ in the 1/4 weighing with driver 3800 lbs. Its 6 cylinders, cast pistons, cast crank, 2 bolt main block, even OEM rings.. on 93 octane plus methanol injection. This months GM HiTech in the recap from the Nationals in BG is a picture of it with the front tires up. It ran 10.57 and 132.7 with a filled to the rim tank of 93 per the class it competed in. Won the class, fastest ET, fastest MPH, most consistant.
This water arguement i've been reading about it for years.. after a thousand+ dyno pulls.. you start giving up on the issues with water and tuning thereof.
HTH
12-21-2006, 06:36 PM
#24
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Methanol
RON 106
MON 92
C16
MON 117
RON ???
C16 has a much higher MON than methanol. But methanol has a much higher (~4X) the heat of vaporization of gasoline. That is why it is such an attractive fuel for a blower car - it can eliminate the need for an intercooler. The other reason is that the eenrgy content of methanol of an optimal methanol:air mixture is ~10% greater than for gas.
You would be better off running a blower car with straight methanol than with race gas. So, if you add enough methanol to your mixture, I guess you could approach this. Is this what Julio is doing? What would happen with a methanol/water mixture as the primary fuel? Would it allow even higher boost???
Rich
RON 106
MON 92
C16
MON 117
RON ???
C16 has a much higher MON than methanol. But methanol has a much higher (~4X) the heat of vaporization of gasoline. That is why it is such an attractive fuel for a blower car - it can eliminate the need for an intercooler. The other reason is that the eenrgy content of methanol of an optimal methanol:air mixture is ~10% greater than for gas.
You would be better off running a blower car with straight methanol than with race gas. So, if you add enough methanol to your mixture, I guess you could approach this. Is this what Julio is doing? What would happen with a methanol/water mixture as the primary fuel? Would it allow even higher boost???
Rich
12-21-2006, 07:06 PM
#25
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To add to the above, very aggressive blown methanol fueled drag cars waste 25% of the delivered fuel out the exhaust.
Julio - Do not assume the people you're conversing with are inexperienced. And I would love for you to share some datalogs with us, hopefully not just OBDII data rate stuff but data from Innovate or another solution that has a reasonable rate. Thanks in advance for sharing.
Julio - Do not assume the people you're conversing with are inexperienced. And I would love for you to share some datalogs with us, hopefully not just OBDII data rate stuff but data from Innovate or another solution that has a reasonable rate. Thanks in advance for sharing.
12-21-2006, 07:23 PM
#26
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This is very interesting stuff. On humid days airplane engines make alot less horsepower. This is documented in airplane manuals and engine tests. This would lead me to believe that water does not help power output. Cold dry air is the most conducive to making power.
12-21-2006, 08:13 PM
#27
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There's no question that IF you could run the same amount of boost with the same IAT's with and w/o water, you'd be better off without it. That's what your (correct) observation speaks to as much as anything else.
Rich
12-21-2006, 09:01 PM
#28
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Octane rating is flawed on methanol. Most of the race fuel sites list in in terms of "purity" not octane. It would be impossible for a top alcohol dragster to make that power on 106 octane.
For every ounce of fuel you have to double it in methanol. Takes twice the amount of alcohol as it does fuel to generate the same power. Its a little less, but in laymans terms.. typically rite on.
If I reduce my injectors by 20%, now I have to introduce twice that amount in methanol. This high volume is where the majic is. This is what allows the higher boost due to the amount being pumped it.
If you look at commercially available water injections systems, they have nozzles that flow very small amounts. Perfect example.. Aquamist. Their M1 nozzle is like 1 GPH and their pump runs max 80 PSI. Anything past 5 GPH and you start getting into bogging. On a mid size engine.
I run 25 GPH at 150-170 PSI methanol.
Let you do the math. Inject this amount with any water concentration.. you'll blow any flame the motor has rite out.
The datalogs were done using FAST. Typical race car computer.
Make your system 100% alcohol compatible.. go get your data. Its not on paper.. but in real life. 100% compatible allows to run from water to alcohol.. anywhere in between.
Point being missed by this thread is volume being injected.
For every ounce of fuel you have to double it in methanol. Takes twice the amount of alcohol as it does fuel to generate the same power. Its a little less, but in laymans terms.. typically rite on.
If I reduce my injectors by 20%, now I have to introduce twice that amount in methanol. This high volume is where the majic is. This is what allows the higher boost due to the amount being pumped it.
If you look at commercially available water injections systems, they have nozzles that flow very small amounts. Perfect example.. Aquamist. Their M1 nozzle is like 1 GPH and their pump runs max 80 PSI. Anything past 5 GPH and you start getting into bogging. On a mid size engine.
I run 25 GPH at 150-170 PSI methanol.
Let you do the math. Inject this amount with any water concentration.. you'll blow any flame the motor has rite out.
The datalogs were done using FAST. Typical race car computer.
Make your system 100% alcohol compatible.. go get your data. Its not on paper.. but in real life. 100% compatible allows to run from water to alcohol.. anywhere in between.
Point being missed by this thread is volume being injected.
12-21-2006, 09:15 PM
#29
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Why not just run it on methanol? I have no idea what you are talking about wrt purity of methanol? You are saying impure methanol is more detonation resistant than the 99.85% pure stuff we use in racing? We run an alcohol Hemi and it sure does detonate. It also makes power. It also gets rebuilt frequently. We buy pistons "by the case"! A street motor would never last under the conditions a blown alcohol race motor runs under, so I am not sure of the point you are making. My own race car is also methanol fueled, so I do know a bit about it.
Rich
Rich
12-21-2006, 10:06 PM
#30
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The problem with running methanol full time is servicing, washdown, fuel system, etc.
Bring out the crayon..
METHANOL
M1™
M1 Racing Methanol has a 99.95% minimum purity - the highest purity available in the U.S. With M1, engines run cooler and are less subject to corrosion. VP uses only lined drums which prohibit rust, corrosion and metal deposits that can contaminate fuel delivery systems. Recommended for all methanol-legal racing applications.
where does it talk about octane?
mgray.. yes.. but only under very high demands. Not full time. Easy A lot easier with the systems available. KISS is the best principle. Complicate your self as needed. Careful with "placing the carriage before the horse" Which seems common in this thread.
Bring out the crayon..
METHANOL
M1™
M1 Racing Methanol has a 99.95% minimum purity - the highest purity available in the U.S. With M1, engines run cooler and are less subject to corrosion. VP uses only lined drums which prohibit rust, corrosion and metal deposits that can contaminate fuel delivery systems. Recommended for all methanol-legal racing applications.
where does it talk about octane?
mgray.. yes.. but only under very high demands. Not full time. Easy
A lot easier with the systems available. KISS is the best principle. Complicate your self as needed. Careful with "placing the carriage before the horse" Which seems common in this thread.