Computer Diagnostics and Tuning Technical discussion on diagnostics and programming of the F-body computers

LS1 PCM on LT1.

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Old Dec 29, 2008 | 04:27 AM
  #121  
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Originally Posted by The Highlander
That was the idea that I had given to S10 Wildside and I favored his view of the way it was done...
There were a few others who expressed the same concerns.

If it works....great!
If it performs...fantastic!

There are several ways about going at this and seeing the ideas come to surface is proof enough that (some) people want to get away from the LT1 PCM.
Old Dec 29, 2008 | 09:35 AM
  #122  
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Originally Posted by S10Wildside
Very clever and nice work.

Most everyone I have talked with about pulling the crank signal from the cam have had the following concerns...
  • GM never did it that way

    gm did do it that way on the lt1's via a 360 pulse signal. actually this now is putting out a 48 pulse signal much LOWER resoution than the lt1 originally had...

  • true crank position is unknown and changing over time due to timing chain wear

    getting crank signal of the cam has worked fine on every lt1 ever produced. Also the persons needing a ls1 pcm in a lt1 motor usually won’t be putting the necessary 200,000 miles needed to wear out a chain on a 2 bar boosted motor..

  • radical cams may provide an inconsistent crank signal
again plenty of radical cam lt1's out there with 0 problems


Further regarding the optispark...
  • prone to corrosion, ruining even the optical signal

my car had 120,000 km when I pulled that very opti out.. No corrosion to be seen.. I will be able to seal this up 100% now that the high voltage part is gone. Most opti problems involve the high voltage side arcing out. also i have a source that can laser that cam out of stainless for about 150$ (much lower if i buy a quantity) also the stock disk is about .005-.007" i have cut this out of thicker .010 matl so it will be much less likely to "blow up" even thou i have never seen that happen

The LS1 PCM is actively monitoring crank position to detect misfire. I would question the accuracy of any misfire DTC that may set.

again seeing as I have a twin turbo in my car the most it will see between rebuilds is 20k if that.. chain slop is no concern of mine..
Let’s say that I could buy that opti wheel for 150$ (<<didnt cost me near that much) there is 2$ worth of electronics to make it work. In total I have 152$ worth of specific parts to make this work. I will agree that your system is slightly better but the cost doesn’t justify the difference in price. and its not nearly as fun as designing and building someting my self.. i dont take pride in buying stuff.. i take pride in building stuff..

Buying parts from efi connection.
24x Crankshaft Reluctor - LT1 and LT4 Engines $275.00 USD
24x Crankshaft Position Sensor $100.00 USD
1x Camshaft Position Sensor for lt1 (guess probably more)>>$300.00 USD
97 lt1 Timing Cover $80.00 USD
-------------------------------------------------------------
TOTAL $755.00 USD


My second Idea was to use a 14$ ls1 reluctor mounted to the lt1 balancer. And a simple bracket to hold the stock ls1 crank sensor.. then I would make a aluminum plug on the lathe that would fit in the seal hole on the lt1 timing cover and use the ls2 cam sensor to trigger of a bolt on reluctor on the cam gear. This could be made with a total of 200$ worth of parts.. the worst thing about this idea is you would have to paint the crank wheel so it wouldnt rust. (again not a problem on my summer driven car) or you would have to replace a 14$ part every 10 years..

Last edited by akafred; Dec 29, 2008 at 10:03 AM.
Old Dec 29, 2008 | 10:12 AM
  #123  
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also i have got a complete harness with computer and coils for 100$ out of a 99 Chevy truck. the harness i am going to pull out the coil section and re pin in the sensors fans ect from the lt1 harness.

the 99 truck pcm can run 2 and 3 bar OS's and is basically the same as a 411 pcm (will run the same OS) i would recommend anyone looking at this to go this route as junk yards double or triple the price when the parts come off a camaro or vette..

if anyone is intrested in repinning their harness i have the truck, 95lt1 and 2000 camaro diagrams.
Old Dec 29, 2008 | 10:23 AM
  #124  
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Originally Posted by S10Wildside
GM never did it that way (crank signal from cam)
Originally Posted by akafred
gm did do it that way on the lt1's via a 360 pulse signal
That does not imply a crank signal from the cam. I agree that it is a means of determining engine position...however accurate or inaccurate it may be.

The 96-97 LT1 engines all have a 4x crank sensor to determine crank position for misfire detection. The LS1 PCM is also a system that uses crank position for misfire detection. Until it is tried and tested, we don't know how the LS1 PCM will behave with a crank signal from the cam.

For OBDII systems, did GM (and other auto manufacturers) choose to get the engine position from the crankshaft because of timing chain wear up to 200,000 miles? Or is there something more to it? I don't know.

Last edited by S10Wildside; Dec 29, 2008 at 10:44 AM.
Old Dec 29, 2008 | 10:41 AM
  #125  
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Originally Posted by S10Wildside
For OBDII systems, did GM (and other auto manufacturers) choose to get the engine position from the crankshaft because of timing chain wear up to 200,000 miles? Or is there something more to it? I don't know.

Not 100% sure, but due to the sensitivity of the missfire detection I believe the signal has to be from the crank. If it's installed on the cam the slight bit of slack in the chain might be enough to fake the PCM into a Missfire code since the PCM determines time/speed between combustion events, if the cam is speeding up/slowing down due to slack it might be enough to set it off..

Plus the cam is spinning at 1/4 the speed of the crank, the problem might be amplified.

Can you simply turn off misfire detection?
Old Dec 29, 2008 | 10:58 AM
  #126  
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Originally Posted by dookie454
...due to the sensitivity of the missfire detection I believe the signal has to be from the crank....
According to the GM service manual, diagnostic for P0300 - Misfire Detected, the following conditions are known to cause a misfire DTC:
  • running out of gas
  • restricted fuel filter
  • variable thickness brake rotor
  • drive shaft out of balance
  • certain rough road conditions

It sure does sound like the crank signal is rather sensitive.

Can you simply turn off misfire detection?
I see processing enablers and MIL light settings for misfire (in EFILive), but I don't know what the consequences are of disabling everything to do with misfire detection.
Old Dec 29, 2008 | 12:34 PM
  #127  
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You can turn off misfire in the codes perse.

You wouldn't have a FACTORY style system. but it should work. I had thought about it and more or less tried to muck it up using the fast mounting hardware, but since I have a supercharger, it meant that my hardware options for external mounting were limited and I had to rearrange a couple of things.

The system could be affected by external factors and it wouldn't be in a "self contained" system.

You can buy your wiring harness from an ls1 car and repin it, it will be cheaper. All you would need is the reluctor and cam sensor.

Wait till i get some pictures of my setup so you guys can see what I am talking about.
Old Dec 29, 2008 | 03:41 PM
  #128  
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actually your cheaper off to use the lt1 harness and repin it into the ls1 connectors.. then add the crank cam and coil wires.. this way you can start off with more readaly available lower priced truck harness and you allready will have all the coneectors in your engine harness where they need to be.. if you start with a ls1 camaro harness you may have to move some stuff and it seems like the ls1 camaro harness goes for about 200$ for the harness itself. you can get the truck harness and coils for under 100$
Old Dec 29, 2008 | 04:09 PM
  #129  
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got the car running on the ls1 computer today... i repinned the lt1 harness into the connectors and addded the in the coil crank and cam sensors

i was worried at first as it would barely stay running then i pulgged in the other coil harness and it runs like a champ now..

dont mind the smoke there was some antifreeze on the downpipes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btAtQtIe3LY
Old Dec 29, 2008 | 04:13 PM
  #130  
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Originally Posted by The Highlander
No... I really wouldn't...

I'll have mine running before you do.

i am hoping you have yours running?
Old Dec 31, 2008 | 08:05 PM
  #131  
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jaja.. not quite.. i was unable to fire up today.. Dead battery... Ran into a few problems installing the timing cover, that took me 2 hours off of my day... But the car is almost ready... and I am hoping to fire up tomorrow!

Point is... I like to drop the oil pan when installing the timing cover, and that was really a pita... not remove it, but just drop it... In a fit of anger I destroyed the oil cooler lines and almost peeled off one of the bolts from the PAN. That alone didn't let me drop the pan to install the timing cover in order to not damage the oil pan gasket and then have a freaking LEAK.

Well.... I drank some coffee... Found a 3/8 socket and a fine racketing... voila... it bolted off... what a relief...

After that it was pretty much straight forward, I just was extremely tired and didn't have the battery ready...

Last edited by Highlander; Dec 31, 2008 at 08:11 PM.
Old Dec 31, 2008 | 08:23 PM
  #132  
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yeah i didnt have to drop the oil pan...

Originally Posted by The Highlander
jaja.. not quite.. i was unable to fire up today.. Dead battery... Ran into a few problems installing the timing cover, that took me 2 hours off of my day... But the car is almost ready... and I am hoping to fire up tomorrow!

Point is... I like to drop the oil pan when installing the timing cover, and that was really a pita... not remove it, but just drop it... In a fit of anger I destroyed the oil cooler lines and almost peeled off one of the bolts from the PAN. That alone didn't let me drop the pan to install the timing cover in order to not damage the oil pan gasket and then have a freaking LEAK.

Well.... I drank some coffee... Found a 3/8 socket and a fine racketing... voila... it bolted off... what a relief...

After that it was pretty much straight forward, I just was extremely tired and didn't have the battery ready...
Old Dec 31, 2008 | 11:30 PM
  #133  
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Well.. at least I wont have any issues if my water pump leaks!!! or if i get mud or heavy rain on the road :P
Old Jan 1, 2009 | 10:33 AM
  #134  
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Originally Posted by dookie454
...Plus the cam is spinning at 1/4 the speed of the crank.....
The cam rotates at 1/2 the speed of the crank.
Old Jan 1, 2009 | 06:53 PM
  #135  
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Cool

You gonna offer a kit?

Originally Posted by akafred
got the car running on the ls1 computer today... i repinned the lt1 harness into the connectors and addded the in the coil crank and cam sensors

i was worried at first as it would barely stay running then i pulgged in the other coil harness and it runs like a champ now..

dont mind the smoke there was some antifreeze on the downpipes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btAtQtIe3LY



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