I think if any failure can be linked to the car itself, it would have to be "Eye Appeal", inside and out. Remember, EYE APPEAL = BUY APPEAL..
The Camaro was MORE about the JOB and lost sight of the Driver/Passenger, and their ergonomic needs and pleasing the visual creature we are.
I'm 6'2" @ 240lbs, and the 4th gen seats were just plain uncomfortable to me. The lumbars particularly. The unibody wasn't stiff enough..etc..
GM should look at ALL the POPULAR modds that were done to Camaro's and use that for direction on WHAT WAS INADEQUATE with the Camaro's.(At least as options)(Mechanical and Appearance wise) Not exact parts, but themes and directions of what the people who buy these cars like. The Power and performance were'nt a big issue, except maybe braking, weak rear ends or like.
It should'nt simply be about "doing one better than the Mustang", but "TAKING IT TO THE NEXT LEVEL!"

 

Wasn't this the price of an SS/WS6 in 2002?

Content will dictate costs at different trim levels. Platform sharing is the ultimate key to cost containment.

I think it will be a struggle to hit the low $20k entry price point....in 2008's dollars....I "think" it'll range between $25k and the low $40k's.....but they'd better not cut the "wrong corners" or it'll be lights out for good.

 

Exactly.

MSRP for a 2002 WS6 coupe - $31,185
MSRP for a 2002 WS6 CE coupe - $35,285

First link that I stumbled across

 

What did a typical 2002 Z28 MSRP for?

WS6's were supposed to be a "step up" from the T/A and/or Formula (and they more or less were, though performance improvements were marginal at best). Further, T/As had a higher MSRP than the average Z28. I would expect a WS6-type of car to be priced at or near the same price as a Cobra - just like they always have been. In that case, I'd have no problems with it. If that were the price of your "typical" Z28-type Camaro, then I would have a problem with it (that is my opinion, of course).

Personally, I don't see anything in this thread that yells "cutting corners," unless your only metric is that the 5th Gen Camaro must be on a Camaro-specific chassis with virtually everything being Camaro-specific.

So I ask again, as the question wasn't answered (not that you have to): Would you be willing to pay $35k-$40k for a 5th Gen Camaro that you describe in previous replies above?

FYI....the $35k WS6 quoted above is a "Collectors edition" and hardly representative of the MSRP on the majority of 2002 LS1 F-bodies. For that matter, in the link provided, Formula Coupe's were listed as having an MSRP of $25,865 - almost $10k less than the CE.

 

I am by no means well off but I could personally justify $35K for a properly executed Z28 if they folded the ideals of the original into the new car.

In present day terms, this means that I could justify $35K for a Z28 if they followed in the footsteps of the ZO6. No I don't mean it HAS to have the LS7, but it does have to be a top line no fluff model that is ready for battle just like the ZO6.

Keep in mind that I don't take such a cost figure lightly as my '96 stickered for less than $21K. Of course this was due in part to my careful option selection. I didn't check off any boxes on the order sheet that didn't make the car faster or corner harder.

 

Which brings us back to the point made that started this exchange: People's tendancy of revising what the car actually was. GTO was ALWAYS barely nothing more than a mid-sized family-rental car with a V8 from a large car and a GTO badge slapped on it, much the same way all muscle cars of the day were.

No, it didn't have a chassis engineered for it.

No, it didn't have a low end model (unless you got the Tempest or LeMans it was based on)

Yes, the GTO was an afterthought model and always was.

You can make the case that this time around, the new GTO is the most unique, single purpose, and special GTO ever made since it shares it's chassis with no other vehicle available in the US.

 

I'm with Chewy....I would fully "expect" to pay mid to high $30k's for the Z/28 that a few of us have fought for so hard.

Personally, as long as the Camaro is on a shared platform that allows it to be profitable at a lower units/sold level, I don't see why a Camaro has to fill all the shoes a Mustang does. GM has many other cars to fill the entry level voids already in place.

 

I can very well image certain Camaro variants falling into that price range.....just like they did in the final years of the 4th gen.

But that doesn't necessarilly mean that you must bring less expensive Camaro variants in....only if they carry a suspension designed by John Deere.

GM will be selling a product soon, which will have it's most rigid structure and most advanced suspension components of any car in GM's global parts bin. This product will cost you LESS than 20K. It is Kappa.

Here's another question to ponder.

How much more does the Cobra's 5.4 blocked, 4 valve headed, supercharged inducted and intercooled - motor cost, vs a really inexpensive 450-475 hp LSx motor?

Bet you could buy lots of forged alloy control arms and bullet proof half shafts for the difference.

 

In regards to many comments made on page 15, you have to keep in mind that manufacturers are thinking mainly of the general public, and not automotive enthusiasts. I've read a lot of credit being given to Ford for its upgrade in hp for 05, but I wouldn't be so quick to do so. Most mid sized sedans had the same hp as the 04's and it was only catching up to the extinct f-bodys and mid-sedans.
The general public is interested in image and aestetics more than anything else, and the price is dependent more on the image than quality/quantity.

 

I glad someone else finally brought up Kappa in this thread, besides me.

What other RWD, 4 seater sports cars does GM sell in the entry level? Not every wants a Cobalt or can have a solstice. The Camaro needs to fill that void and at it should start under $20k.

 

I'm fine with struts and no IRS. I guess IRS could be added later for a top model maybe, but lets be real, the car would be fine without it and some actually prefer that. IMO though, everything has to still be done better than the M*stang and every other aspect should have more attention to detail. Hopefully it can be done.

 

Evok worked within CEO Wagoner's guideline regarding GM's new focus on "core" vehicles. GM is putting their resources towards the new full size trucks, high volume sedans, and high profit Hummers and Cadillac.

Zeta for 2008 has been cancelled, and now won't be out before the 2010 model year if then. Let's say I'm wrong about there being a Zeta offshoot that's unaffected, and a Zeta based Camaro is also a casualty of all this. Say there's already a design and alot of the legwork is already done.

Now, you have a choice of either sitting on your hands and doing something else till you're allowed to start up again (there is a stop work order on all North American Zeta), or you can put together a program that will cause those who have to approve new vehicles to see this as a must have. That means the car has to use existing parts, and most important of all: it has to have a larger than usual (for a car) profit margin!

Evok so far seems to be the only person to have come up with a real solution here, instead of alot of bellyaching, posturing, or proclaiming what they won't buy.

Let's be blunt here, Camaro was never a world class, sophisticated piece of automotive wonderment. Camaro was always an evolution of a simple means to go quickly and handle well for a little money (save those who paid WS6 or SS prices for a $22K F-body). A Camaro with equal or greater visual impact of the Mustang with an interior that is at a minimum of the same quality of the new Cobalt that rides & handles better than the 4th gen at a price that's competitive to equally equpted Mustangs is going to sell well, regardless as to it's suspension. Each person headed for the door over that will likely be replaced by 3 who simply don't care.

A person is going to see a picture of the car in a book or magazine, go to the local dealer and sit in it, test drive it a few blocks, maybe do a few miles on the freeway, and if they like what they see & feel and the price is right, they're going to sign the paperwork and drive off the lot in one.

Before we get to that point, we have to create a car that GM management will trip over themselves to get on the streets.
Selling the car at a substantially higher price than the competition will kill it.
Selling it with traditionally thin car profit margins will kill it.
Settling for low production numbers will kill it.
Selling it as a niche vehicle will kill it.
The car MUST use existing & shared parts or it won't get made.

Now that we have a bit of reality and guidelines to work from, let's come up with a alternative plan to Evok's if you don't like his.

 

How can we come up with a idea of chassis and the like if we dont know what the truth is or not?
Can Sigma's cowl be changed?
How flexable is Kappa?
Can Sigma be widened, but not lenghtend?
Will Caddy let Sigma go?
How interchangeable is Zeta to Sigma?
How interchangeable are parts of 355/360 into Kappa, Sigma or Zeta?
How will things like this effect design?

 

And it died because of this kind of thinking...5+ year old benchmarking is killing GM. "Just good enough" just isn't going to cut it any more.

Today, we have many other competitors than just the Mustang.

.....A magazine that will crucify GM for building a car with struts and a live axle. I can see the headlines now........"Chevy, killed the Camaro only to wait 5-10 years to build a re-run of the 1982 Camaro"

Those kinds of headlines will doom the Camaro all over again.

"Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it"

On this point we very much agree...

Then the issue of struts and a live axle need to be dropped.....it's been shown that it would actually increase costs to re-engineer a modern platform to use these archaic parts.

As for as the other parts........there's not a car made (in any affordable segment) that does not already use the parts bin......so who really cares? Just use the good parts, for the parts that really matter.

No-one wants to realize that they bought a $30k car with parts out of a $20k car....



As far as "my plan"......

Sigma has expensive suspension "pieces"....isn't there a cheaper way to build these pieces without re-designing the entire thing?

Sigma still has the tall firewall......so maybe we need look elsewhere....

How hard would it be to use the Sigma IRS under a stretched Kappa?

Hell, Lutz himself is quoted in HotRod this month laughing about the prospect of HotRod coming out with an article a few months after Kappa hits the ground, showing how to stuff an LS* into it.

Remember, they didn't think an LS* would fit in a Colorado/Canyon either....and it's already been done.

Finally, it's not like Kappa couldn't use a few more variants to help it's plant utilization & profitability picture......

 

Ok. We simply have different views of what we would like to see, based on our wants and biases. No biggie.

FYI...an LS7 option would likely be VERY expensive, given things like titanium rods and dry sump oiling.

LOL. You might be right. Something to consider though....that parts and pieces of that motor aren't really cutting edge or unusual anymore. The heads have been around now for years, the iron block has been used in the trucks for years, and even the blower and intercooler stuff has been around a while. Still not cheap by normal LS1 standards, but not that out of line either.

Bless thee.