A workable & practical way of getting a Camaro to market quickly & cheaply!
03-29-2005, 08:17 PM
#1
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A workable & practical way of getting a Camaro to market quickly & cheaply!
Before I even start, I want to say up front I got this idea from "Evok" over at cheersandgears.com.
"Evok" is a knowledgeable industry person & not one who is prone to flights of fancy or a "GM-should-make-a-top-notch-Camaro-regardless-as-to-it's-cost" shrew. That adds, IMHO, great amount of credibility and more importantly, reality and practicality to his proposal.
Although, both this & C&G share alot of the same members, I feel that an idea like this should be posted here as well, since this is a site about the car in question.
He starts off by taking into account that GM has it's back against the wall financially, and CEO Rick Wagoner has all but dictated that future vehicles come off of existing parts and chassis for the immediate future. He also realistically points out a ground up effort for a new chassis would take far more time than GM has.
He then points out verious parts GM can use that are already in existence.
On item that's bound to generate controversy here is his reccomendation that this Camaro uses a live axle. He later in the thread points out that the IRS components for the Omega chassis (known as the GTO & Catera here) would drive cost up (therefore profit margin and enticement for GM to actually produce it down).
Another area that's bound to generate controversy is that he proposes to build it at GM's Ramoz, Mexico plant, current home to such soon to be discontinued vehicles as the Pontiac Aztek. Again, a move that would also increase GM's profit margin on the car and make it more appealing to those that have to be sold on the idea.
"Evok" is a knowledgeable industry person & not one who is prone to flights of fancy or a "GM-should-make-a-top-notch-Camaro-regardless-as-to-it's-cost" shrew. That adds, IMHO, great amount of credibility and more importantly, reality and practicality to his proposal.
Although, both this & C&G share alot of the same members, I feel that an idea like this should be posted here as well, since this is a site about the car in question.
He starts off by taking into account that GM has it's back against the wall financially, and CEO Rick Wagoner has all but dictated that future vehicles come off of existing parts and chassis for the immediate future. He also realistically points out a ground up effort for a new chassis would take far more time than GM has.
He then points out verious parts GM can use that are already in existence.
On item that's bound to generate controversy here is his reccomendation that this Camaro uses a live axle. He later in the thread points out that the IRS components for the Omega chassis (known as the GTO & Catera here) would drive cost up (therefore profit margin and enticement for GM to actually produce it down).
Another area that's bound to generate controversy is that he proposes to build it at GM's Ramoz, Mexico plant, current home to such soon to be discontinued vehicles as the Pontiac Aztek. Again, a move that would also increase GM's profit margin on the car and make it more appealing to those that have to be sold on the idea.
The Zeta Answer!
Many here have been shocked by the sudden public announcement that zeta rwd cars will not be coming to North America. In the announcement GM stated that a business case could not be made for the zeta cars to compete successfully with the DaimlerChrysler LX cars and the Ford Mustang. For many the real loss meant that the return of the Camaro was not to be.
For a week now, message boards such as C&G have been clamoring in anger and disgust at GM’s decision not to bring the zeta cars to market. The press has not been to kind either for different reasons of course.
GM as we know has it’s back up against the wall. They must stop the slide in market share erosion and bring back some enthusiasm back to the company. GM also must show to pundits, industry analyst and financial markets that they are serious about turning the company around. Bob Lutz must execute a vehicle program that will grow market share, satisfy the enthusiasts fast and cheap. Bob Lutz it is time that you step up to the plate with a vehicle program that will stir up the passion and excitement that many have expected from GM. Bob this time around the business case has already been shown to work and I suggest you copy it to the ‘T’. You just have to look to your friends in Dearborn.
GM does not have the resources to devote a new RWD platform such as what was used for the Holden Torana. It would take a lead time to design and develop that GM does not have. The market for such a platform also would impinge on the current Epsilon architecture for the foreseeable future especially when AWD goes on line. The theme here is to grow market share and save cost; forget Torana and let’s go to the parts bin. Remember Bob, GM needs to be fast and lean.
Body Structure:
Start with sigma wide and cut the wheelbase to 113in. Trim the overhangs and make the vehicle 188in OAL. Be sure to take out all the fluff that adds cost for NVH Cadillac reasons. Not needed for this application. The quiet steel and foam have to go.
Structure is already validated and FMVSS compliant.
Electrical Architecture:
Carryover Zeta
Steering:
Carryover base CTS
Front Suspension:
Simple McPherson strut set up to save cost.
Rear Suspension:
Rear live axle from the SSR. It already is validated to the 6.0l V8
Seats:
Carryover Epsilon Structure
Transmission:
Carryover GTO auto and manual
Powertrain:
Base engine 3.6l V6 carryover
Uplevel engine 400hp 6.0l V8 carryover
Manufacturing Plant:
Ramoz, Mexico
Base MSRP:
$19,995
Body Style:
2 Door Coupe
Marketing Division:
Chevrolet
Model:
Camaro
Bob this is Beta. Rick wants you to go to the parts bin anyway and plus it is one of your line items on your performance review. I think you could sell 100k/year and get it to market it 30 months. Ford did just that with the 2005 Mustang. They took the DEW98 platform and cut all the cost out of it. There you go Bob, now just style the hell out of it.
Many here have been shocked by the sudden public announcement that zeta rwd cars will not be coming to North America. In the announcement GM stated that a business case could not be made for the zeta cars to compete successfully with the DaimlerChrysler LX cars and the Ford Mustang. For many the real loss meant that the return of the Camaro was not to be.
For a week now, message boards such as C&G have been clamoring in anger and disgust at GM’s decision not to bring the zeta cars to market. The press has not been to kind either for different reasons of course.
GM as we know has it’s back up against the wall. They must stop the slide in market share erosion and bring back some enthusiasm back to the company. GM also must show to pundits, industry analyst and financial markets that they are serious about turning the company around. Bob Lutz must execute a vehicle program that will grow market share, satisfy the enthusiasts fast and cheap. Bob Lutz it is time that you step up to the plate with a vehicle program that will stir up the passion and excitement that many have expected from GM. Bob this time around the business case has already been shown to work and I suggest you copy it to the ‘T’. You just have to look to your friends in Dearborn.
GM does not have the resources to devote a new RWD platform such as what was used for the Holden Torana. It would take a lead time to design and develop that GM does not have. The market for such a platform also would impinge on the current Epsilon architecture for the foreseeable future especially when AWD goes on line. The theme here is to grow market share and save cost; forget Torana and let’s go to the parts bin. Remember Bob, GM needs to be fast and lean.
Body Structure:
Start with sigma wide and cut the wheelbase to 113in. Trim the overhangs and make the vehicle 188in OAL. Be sure to take out all the fluff that adds cost for NVH Cadillac reasons. Not needed for this application. The quiet steel and foam have to go.
Structure is already validated and FMVSS compliant.
Electrical Architecture:
Carryover Zeta
Steering:
Carryover base CTS
Front Suspension:
Simple McPherson strut set up to save cost.
Rear Suspension:
Rear live axle from the SSR. It already is validated to the 6.0l V8
Seats:
Carryover Epsilon Structure
Transmission:
Carryover GTO auto and manual
Powertrain:
Base engine 3.6l V6 carryover
Uplevel engine 400hp 6.0l V8 carryover
Manufacturing Plant:
Ramoz, Mexico
Base MSRP:
$19,995
Body Style:
2 Door Coupe
Marketing Division:
Chevrolet
Model:
Camaro
Bob this is Beta. Rick wants you to go to the parts bin anyway and plus it is one of your line items on your performance review. I think you could sell 100k/year and get it to market it 30 months. Ford did just that with the 2005 Mustang. They took the DEW98 platform and cut all the cost out of it. There you go Bob, now just style the hell out of it.
This is about fast, cheap and potential for excitment. What I wrote was just that. Granted it was over simplified but it gets to where GM needs to be. Think about the potential of what I wrote about. How about a year later or two later with a follow up with the version of the 1999 Chevy Nomad concept to compete head to head with the dodge Magnum using a modified version of the same concept. Between the Nomad and the proposed Camaro ther is a potential of 200k to 250k vehicles. That is a 1 1/2 increase in market share without giving cars away. Sounds like a winner to me.
The old Omega platform is too expensive to do what it needs to do. Look at where the Catera and GTO are priced.
The old Omega platform is too expensive to do what it needs to do. Look at where the Catera and GTO are priced.
03-29-2005, 08:27 PM
#2
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Location: Knoxville, TN
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Re: A workable & practical way of getting a Camaro to market quickly & cheaply!
Sounds very interesting. Can the weight be kept down? If GM were to do this, and unless they are already working on something (one would thing SOMETHING would have leaked out about it), then its still MY08 at least - right?
Thanks for posting - and no lines to read between.
Thanks for posting - and no lines to read between.
03-29-2005, 08:39 PM
#3
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Location: Jersey Shore
Posts: 4,306
Re: A workable & practical way of getting a Camaro to market quickly & cheaply!
cutting out the quiet steel, that can be found on a 15k Cobalt and a 20k Malibu, is a bad move unless you plan to carry over the 4th gens interior as well.
Parts bin Camaro huh? Live axle made for a truck chassis? Well, I see that adding the truck live axle to the rear of Sigma, that is designed for SLA IRS, as a cost-adder then subtractor.
This seems like a last ditch, ubercheap effort to just get some sort of 2dr coupe here. I dont want some botched Camaro placeholder till GM rolls in some money.
And I would be very upset if I saw a live axle under Camaro. Camaro shouldnt go down to Mustang's level, it should continue to stay ahead of Mustang in performance.
Parts bin Camaro huh? Live axle made for a truck chassis? Well, I see that adding the truck live axle to the rear of Sigma, that is designed for SLA IRS, as a cost-adder then subtractor.
This seems like a last ditch, ubercheap effort to just get some sort of 2dr coupe here. I dont want some botched Camaro placeholder till GM rolls in some money.
And I would be very upset if I saw a live axle under Camaro. Camaro shouldnt go down to Mustang's level, it should continue to stay ahead of Mustang in performance.
Now lets see if something like this will happen....I think it will.
03-29-2005, 09:10 PM
#5
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Re: A workable & practical way of getting a Camaro to market quickly & cheaply!
while this might please bean-counters (whose significance at gm grows more each day) this doesn't necessarily make for a good car
me personally, i don't really have a problem with it as long as the camaro can be better than the last
but i know there's a lot more people who would care about quiet steel and foam, and other misc. points
the only way i can see this working is if it still holds the performance of the last f-body as is undeniably attractive
jmho, but i'm keeping the faith
me personally, i don't really have a problem with it as long as the camaro can be better than the last
but i know there's a lot more people who would care about quiet steel and foam, and other misc. points
the only way i can see this working is if it still holds the performance of the last f-body as is undeniably attractive
jmho, but i'm keeping the faith
03-29-2005, 09:26 PM
#6
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Posts: 41
Re: A workable & practical way of getting a Camaro to market quickly & cheaply!
Rear Suspension:
Rear live axle from the SSR. It already is validated to the 6.0l V8
Transmission:
Carryover GTO auto and manual
Powertrain:
Base engine 3.6l V6 carryover
Uplevel engine 400hp 6.0l V8 carryover
Manufacturing Plant:
Ramoz, Mexico
Base MSRP:
$19,995
Body Style:
2 Door Coupe
Marketing Division:
Chevrolet
Model:
Camaro
Rear live axle from the SSR. It already is validated to the 6.0l V8
Transmission:
Carryover GTO auto and manual
Powertrain:
Base engine 3.6l V6 carryover
Uplevel engine 400hp 6.0l V8 carryover
Manufacturing Plant:
Ramoz, Mexico
Base MSRP:
$19,995
Body Style:
2 Door Coupe
Marketing Division:
Chevrolet
Model:
Camaro
GM has to remember to keep the Z/28,SS model affordable, similar to the pricing of the Mustang GT.
03-29-2005, 09:29 PM
#7
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Posts: 858
Re: A workable & practical way of getting a Camaro to market quickly & cheaply!
Am I the only one that remembers that Camaro needed both Firebird as a platformmate, AND parts sharing with the X-Body to be approved in the first place? This car is not about all out performance. Its about performance for a price point. Always has been, always will be. When you go for all out performance, you get a Corvette.
As Guion mentioned, the hallowed new Mustang uses DEW98...A damn fine platform, but with a whole lot of fluff removed. Guess what that leaves? A damn fine pony car.
If GM could bring a sigma-derived Camaro with parts-bin engineering to market in the next two years, with proper styling and interior appointments, they might be able to salvage some of the Mustang sales they gave to Ford...
As Guion mentioned, the hallowed new Mustang uses DEW98...A damn fine platform, but with a whole lot of fluff removed. Guess what that leaves? A damn fine pony car.
If GM could bring a sigma-derived Camaro with parts-bin engineering to market in the next two years, with proper styling and interior appointments, they might be able to salvage some of the Mustang sales they gave to Ford...
03-29-2005, 09:38 PM
#9
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Re: A workable & practical way of getting a Camaro to market quickly & cheaply!
Great concept offered by evok with some real possibilities. Granted, there are many components to choose from currently in the GM parts bins. But you don't want a thrown together embarrassment either, as this would prove all the naysayers correct yet again. A live axle is allright to match the Ford offering as a start, if you package with an IRS in mind to up the ante later. The suggested 9.5 inch axle from the new 6.2L SSR is man enough to do the job, but is extremely heavy. Use of this axle would drive the ride and handling folks nuts trying to damp that boat anchor out back. Packaging could prove to be a challenge as well. Keep in mind that a version of this unit sees duty in the three quarter ton trucks and suv's. Overall the ace in the hole to this entire scenario might be to allow Lutz to set up a skunkworks type of isolated team to develop such a vehicle. A team of dedicated gear heads, not yes men, unencumbered by the corporate quagmire that currently paralyzes GM. God knows there are enough of them that just want half a chance to show the world what they are capable of. Let's hope that the new degree of urgency being directed at the top brass by Wall Street, is directly translated into measures such as this. If not, the tailspin is likely to continue.
03-29-2005, 10:00 PM
#10
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Posts: 757
Re: A workable & practical way of getting a Camaro to market quickly & cheaply!
It sounds cheap. It sounds a little rough around the edges. In other words it sounds like a Camaro .
This is exactly what we need. We don't need a perfected uber coupe that costs $30,000. We need a car that provides everything the performance entusiast needs, and nothing they don't. As far as performance goes, the setup described would wipe the floor with any prior Camaro.
As far as refinement goes, it'll have more than enough. Sure, the Cobalt has quiet steel for the same price - but it doesn't have a big V6 or V8. It will be better to ride in than the 4th gen simply because even the cheapest stuff from GM's interior parts bin is much nicer than the crap that went inside the 4th gen.
Build this GM. Take a damn risk for once and it just might pay off.
Guy, is what evok describes more or less the "sport bike" scenario?
.This is exactly what we need. We don't need a perfected uber coupe that costs $30,000. We need a car that provides everything the performance entusiast needs, and nothing they don't. As far as performance goes, the setup described would wipe the floor with any prior Camaro.
As far as refinement goes, it'll have more than enough. Sure, the Cobalt has quiet steel for the same price - but it doesn't have a big V6 or V8. It will be better to ride in than the 4th gen simply because even the cheapest stuff from GM's interior parts bin is much nicer than the crap that went inside the 4th gen.
Build this GM. Take a damn risk for once and it just might pay off.
Guy, is what evok describes more or less the "sport bike" scenario?
Last edited by dav305z; 03-29-2005 at 10:02 PM.
03-29-2005, 10:09 PM
#11
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Re: A workable & practical way of getting a Camaro to market quickly & cheaply!
Wouldnt adding a Live rear axle to a platform designed to use an IRS add cost, not subtract it? Plus, isnt the rear in the CTS-V already designed for 400hp?
03-29-2005, 10:20 PM
#12
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Re: A workable & practical way of getting a Camaro to market quickly & cheaply!
Thats what I said, but I guess not.
I would much rather have a IRS Sigma Camaro and spend the extra 1200 for a better, all around performance coupe then cheap out and grab some rear end out of a truck. This isnt the 90's anymore.
I would much rather have a IRS Sigma Camaro and spend the extra 1200 for a better, all around performance coupe then cheap out and grab some rear end out of a truck. This isnt the 90's anymore.
03-29-2005, 10:26 PM
#14
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Re: A workable & practical way of getting a Camaro to market quickly & cheaply!
Originally Posted by Big Als Z
Thats what I said, but I guess not.
I would much rather have a IRS Sigma Camaro and spend the extra 1200 for a better, all around performance coupe then cheap out and grab some rear end out of a truck. This isnt the 90's anymore.
I would much rather have a IRS Sigma Camaro and spend the extra 1200 for a better, all around performance coupe then cheap out and grab some rear end out of a truck. This isnt the 90's anymore.
03-29-2005, 10:39 PM
#15
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Re: A workable & practical way of getting a Camaro to market quickly & cheaply!
Sounds like a plan to me , now build it 
Camaro with IRS = me no purchase I want a pony car , not a GT or sportscar . That SSR rear might actually take a little power
Camaro with IRS = me no purchase
I want a pony car , not a GT or sportscar . That SSR rear might actually take a little power