i agree..but what i dont get, is mustangs are way more popular at my school than camaros. To other people they just look better, i dont see it, but thats how most kids at my school think, and a mustang is no ricer at all..i think they just need to design a car that looks great all around, about the same size as it is now, they need to stay away from the sebring look(thats what 2002 camaros remind me of) add some curves into the body, keep it sleek, definately a spoiler, but not a wing. Maybe even clear lights (euros) for those who want them..to make everyone happy, they will just need to add more options. Maybe a 4 banger turbo?? thats not really what most people on this site would go for, but if it raises sales for camaro, go for it.

 

There were other choices but back in the late 80's when I was in high school no one would want to be caught dead in anything but a GM car or a Mustang. It was a rare occasion for someone to own anything but a GM car and if you didn't you weren't cool. Were did GM go wrong? If you owned a Camaro you were a god.
I remember this kid in my class got a brand new red on red IROC 5.7 for graduation. In the two months before graduation he went from loser to the most popular guy. I can't see that happening today unless a kid pulls up in a slammed Civic with some 18's" and a huge tailpipe.

 

That's where I'm coming from too. We would absolutely tear a guy down if he showed up at school in what is considered cool by todays standards. But back then, we had all levels of Camaros and Firebirds, the GN, the turbo Regal t-type, the 442, the Monte SS, the Stang, the Tbird Turbo Coupe, the Daytona Shelbys, the GLH Omnis, and thats not even getting into the imports of the day, the RX7, Supra, 300z, Conquest tsi. And also remember that we weren't so far removed from the 60's and 70's that some classic muscle was still roaming around freely.

There was not even a hint of ANY honda being even remotely considered cool...it was the most nerdy car possible to drive. I guess I still have that in the back of my mind, and just cannot understand why the kids are so into them. I can relate to being poor in HS, and not being able to afford a real performance car, and being stuck w/ a honda. But the way some of them act and drive, it's like THEY REALLY BELIEVE they're in a performance car. The only thing I can think of is that the new kids on the block are far enough removed from the real performance era, that growing up w/ Camrys and Accords is all they've know, so slaping a fart pipe and japanese character stickers mounted upsidedown, to them, is hot rodding.

One thing I must point out, this doesn't apply to the nice imports that make REAL power, and have some REAL thought and effort behind them. I'm talking about the primered Neons, and rattletrap integras w/ the neon underbody kits and the lighted windshield washer outlets. Where the heck do these things come from?

I think my best friend in high school invented the ricer movement, abiet domestically. He was the PROUD owner of a Mustard Yellow 1973 Maverick. Straight 6, 90hp, automatic, complete w/ a Thrush glasspack. You've never heard farting like this thing. He even put the little bird sticker on his window. The worst of it was, he shelled the transmission from shifting it around so much trying to get some power down, so it would always slip out of gear. The worst moment ever was when we were in his car cruising in front of the theater, with a BIG line out front, and he came to a stop in front of a speedbump (so as to not "tear up his suspension"), and the dayum thing wouldn't stay in gear. So here we are in front of all the hotties in a mustard colored Maverick, ripping a farting w/ the handle in drive, but the transmission in neutral..and all the hotties and other guys in line are thinking we can't even get over a speed bump in our POS. Thats the image I carry of wannabe cars like that, and it's not a pleasant picture :-).

 

I know exactly what you mean. I feel the same way.

Maybe I'm just alittle selfish on this......but I want Camaro built to suit my tastes specifically.

I know that Camaro must broaden it's appeal, but I don't want the whole line dumbed down so it can be reachable to most 18 year olds with a part time job either. I fear if that happens, it just won't be something that would interest me.

On the other hand, I don't want a car with a high price tag if it doesn't give me what I want. An old tech, mediocre quality, mid $30K 4th gen SS, would not appeal to me.

So, how do you do it? How do you build a car that appeals to us...yet still has broader appeal? Or does it really need to appeal to a broad audience?

 

Depends if Chevy's going to build it to fit into their "many niche vehicles" philosophy.

If not, they just need to sample all the most popular little hot-rods out there (RS-X, WRX, etc.) and apply elements of their forumlas to an already-developed F-body formula (i.e. V8, RWD, hatchback/fastback, etc). Some minor things that I think should be at least considered in order to make this a big-numbers vehicle (you may laugh but this could be pretty big):

• Can they sell aftermarket tail lights for this car and have it look good? (OK, I don't like the shiney chrome ones but the carbon fiber lights are growing on me, esp. on S10s and Civics) **
• Crystal-lens aftermarket Xenon lights look good/are available from the factory
• Available with a good sound system. Nissan is hooking up with Rockford Fosgate, perhaps Chevy should look at Infinity or something even better. Whatever it takes to move away from Bose.
• Nice-looking gauge cluster. This is something that they've never really had. The side-lit 3rd gens were a neat effect but really looked unrefined. Look at Ford and VW for better ideas.

Right now high school kids see Camaros as hard-core cars that offer little 'streetability'. "Camaros are fast, but I'm looking for something like a Mustang or Prelude." Remember, perception is reality. Can't insult them for getting it wrong.

** unless of course it comes with little double-round tails

 

here are your reasons fuel economy,insurance,nexttime you drive your car turn off the radio and listen to the sounds it make from the road.mpg,insurance and car payment wheni got the 97 z i had my insurance went up to 250 a month plus the premium increases which tacked on another 50 a month for 6 months,my payment was 411.89 plus 18mpg in the city not everyone will sacrafice all of thier hard earned money just for that look on almost every 4th gen sire there are people forever complaining about sqeaks,rattles and other noises the mustang and ricers are not better cars they just adhere to younger buyers that think they can make thier car fast and still 35mpg

 

Just a thought, but those IROC Camaros then were priced like Camaro SSs today. If a kid showed up at school with a $33,000 sports car today when most everyone else was driving something used or way cheaper, no doubt he'd be king. Those things were very expensive back then.

CLEAN, I really don't think these cars were ever meant to be marketed to both ends of the age spectrum, & I'd be hard pressed naming any cars that sell in large numbers to both ends.

I don't think times or the market changed that much since we were growing up or days before. Real performance cars are unreachable if you're young (meaning under 23, roughly the age you finish college or trade school & get your 1st real job, or under 25 when car insurence costs drop, and you probally can start affording something nice to drive), unless you spring for the payments & insurence. Young people buy either what's cool or what they can afford, then spend money on superficial stuff to make it "look cool or racy.

The only thing wrong with the 4th gen Camaro is that it's design aged quickly & GM refused to spend any money for a rebody, that's all. We saw the 4th gen for 10 years as the 3rd gen Camaro. Add steroids, and behold... the 4th gen.

It's not the performance hardware that's going to make Camaro "cool", it's design, it's the ability to personalize your car with individual options & the aftermarket.

As far as Hondas being cool, that won't last forever. Everybody has one, and it's nothing special. I think the market is going to be ripe for something new. 10 years ago, everyone was killing to get a used 5.0 Mustang, now it's imports. Soon you'll have Cobalts, Ions, Neons, and perhaps even Focus that will have seriously quick versions at seriously modest prices that are comming up next.

I think it's safe to say, the new youth car craze is about to burst, and when you throw in a new Mustang for the over 24 age group (insurence threshold) I'd say in a year and a half, that group will start dropping Hondas like bricks.

 

I haven't bothered to read the whole thread, but I did want to add my .02...

Kids don't buy new Camaros for 2 reasons:

1) Cost to buy
2) Perceived cost to insure (whether real or not so real)

For me, my Grand Am GT costs SLIGHTLY less per year (and I mean no more than $200) to insure than a 3800 Firebird would have been. My Z28? $150 a year LESS than my Grand Am, and its a V8 too!!!!!!!!!! Shows how much cheaper a 5 year old F bod was/is to insure.

Now, cost to buy...

Well hey, a loaded 3800 5 speed Bird with the same options as my Grand Am GT would have cost about $1,500 more. I would have gotten t-tops instead of a power moonroof, and I would have had to pay $850 more if I wanted an AT, which is standard on the GA GT. So for $30 a month more, why did I personally not go with the Bird???

Simple...I didn't have one in stock to buy when I wanted a new car And no dealer near me had one either...so I bought the Grand Am. If I had had the choice, I would have bought a 3800 Bird, without question...

BUT...

I am not your typical 22 year old new car buyer. I had over $4,000 to put down from profit from buying and then re-selling a '95 Grand Am and an '89 Formula I was then driving daily (or in the winter). I got the GM employee discount. I got the car for invoice minus holdback - $689 in GM card points my Dad didn't need. I got a $22,500 car for $15,495...I was lucky.

If I was Joe Car Buyer, at age 22? I would be looking used, for sure. For the same price as a Cavalier, I can have a nice 2001 Grand Am GT or Alero with all the goodies. THAT is where today's shopper my age goes. My next car will be new as well, but it won't be 'til I'm at least 27...

 

Because V6 Camaros aren't very desirable, most people probably went by "V8 camaro or no Camaro". Getting **** from people just because it was a 6 was very annoying.

Make the V6 more desirable and please make it faster than V6 acccords.

 

Most of my formor HS friends (finished last year) would not consider an f-body mostly becasue of insurence costs. Some of the rich kinds had their parents buy them their cars, but most of the normal people didn't want to pay the insurence.

 

Heh...thats still the case around here. 5.0s are a dime a dozen and I can name AT LEAST 10 of my close friends that have a 5.0 Fox Body and at least one of every year from 87-93. People I know personally that have one....well bump that number up to 20+

 

Same thing at my former HS for rich kids. The school is at least 40% arabic being that Dearborn is a stones throw away. BMWs, Lexus', Mercedes' are common. Someone had a C4 and even a C5 vert. As for insurance....I pay $150/ month for full coverage so I cant complain. I had one of 3 V8 F-bodies (the other 2 were 3rd Gens). Actually those were the only F-bodies period, my Z28, my friend's 86 IROC, and my other friends 88 IROC. Then there were 5.0 fox bodies all over. My car was the fastest car in the lots so I was cool with that too . Dont know what insurance is for everyone else that is 17 or 18, but maybe I'm just lucky

 

Camaro Fuel Economy was stunningly excellent... especially for the V8 car.

Average at worst for the V6 car.

I don't think that was a huge issue, plus, I gotta think that fuel economy, unless it was like a gas guzzler tax car or something, isn;t real high up on a buyer's list for a car such as Camaro.