A 3300-3400lbs. Camaro with the LS2 would smoke the Cobra. It is very important to keep the next Camaro light. The '05 Mustang went up about 50lbs. in weight.

 

I agree that a 3300-3400 pound Camaro with an LS2 would handle the CURRENT Cobra. But the thing you are failing to mention is the fact that by the time the new Camaro gets back, the Cobra is going to be 500 hp. Yes, I think that the next Camaro will outperform all other Mustangs as it did during the 4th gen. But to think that a 400 hp 5th gen has got a chance against the upcoming Cobra is crazy. Chevy better throw more than an LS2 under the hood if it hopes to hang with the Cobra.

 

3rd? Who came in 2nd?

 

Al, I think the thing you are forgetting about in your "GTO will smoke the upcoming Cobra" scenerio is that GM will never allow Pontiac to have the Z06 engine. NEVER.

That they are allowing Cadillac to use the Vette platform is amazing. However, even Cadillac is only getting "old" Vette engine technology. I would be amazed if GM let Cadillac get ahold of the upcoming Z06 engine............... much less Pontiac.

Just as the current GTO "only" has the outgoing Vette base engine. Thus, the upcoming Z06 engine would have to be on the way out of the Vette before GM would ever let another division use it.

As the current GTO is heavier than the current Cobra, it will need all of the Z06's upcoming engine to be able to run with the new Cobra (assuming the weight issues stay the same).

 

I believe both the ford GT and the Dodge viper are ahead of the ZO6.

The mustang/cobra is ahead of the camaro and GTO... and a charger/srt-8 IS in the works as far as I know, so im assuming the srt8 will be dodges way of jumping in the game.

That would put GM in 3rd place of the high end performance, and eventually the lower step performace.

 

who said that GM wont let Pontiac have it? And really, this whole section is based off what "might" happen. The Camaro "might" come back. Its probably designed and halfway to the floors of NAIAS, but what will happen from now and then could be a lot. Aslo, the Cobra "might" get 500hp. No one has come out and said it yet. Coletti said that more cars will share the GT's motor, but thats a $$$ motor, but he never said "The next cobra will have 500 or more hp." Not trying to dowplay the Cobra, but like I said, its all "maybe" right now. Nothing is in stone just yet. Im sure there will be a hi-po Cobra, but who knows what power?
Maybe the Z06 will get 500+hp. We have plenty of insider info, but things change.
Point is, no one really knows what is going to happen. Im sure that if the GTO continues to be Pontiacs halo car, im sure it will get some sort of a mega hp engine. It would be silly not to think that. And it would be silly if you think that Pontiac would let the Mustang Cobra slide past them if they are gunna play in the same price range. We see that the GTO will be getting the LS2 the same year as the C6 is. Who says that GM's attitude about engines and power hasnt changed? I tend to think that we downplay a lot of things GM does. Has GM pulled a 180? Not at all, but its probably at 160*. With the hopeful success of the Mustang, GM will be forced, once again, to aim for the Mustang. Im sure that Pontiac doesnt want to be behind in the HP either. Who says that GM will use the Z06 engine? No one knows it all. We all tend to get carried away with things that might happen.

 

I don't see the GTO getting Z06 stuff either. I see the GTO being a little slower than the next Gen "real" Z28.

 

Unless GTO starts putting up some impressive sales figures, what's to prompt GM to put this "mega hp engine" in it? The LS2 is a nice upgrade, but it's still not going to be a Cobra-killer (or even equal). Dyno tests have proven beyond argument that GTO is not underrated, as the LS1 F-bodies were. It's 350hp rating translates to ~300rwhp in M6 cars and ~290rwhp in A4 cars. The LS2 will be rated at...what...390hp? They'll probably dyno ~330-340rwhp, which is anywhere between 30-50rwhp off a bone stock '03/'04 Cobra (BTW...the shop that dyno'd my car had just done a bone stock '04 Cobra 'vert. It made 410rwhp...bone stock ). The GTO will still be ~150lbs. heavier. So the LS2 still isn't going to put it on equal footing with the current Cobra, much less whatever shows up in '06.
GTO is a nice car, but it's not gonna' be a Cobra-killer IMO.
S.

 

Cadillac getting "old" engine technology? Give me a break! The LS2 is basically the 6.0 truck engine with LS6 heads!

As far as being amazed about Cadillac getting the next Z06 engine, it has the current Z06 engine, so what's there to be amazed at?? I also don't understand why you feel the CTS should have an LS2 engine. Is Cadillac suppose to have an engine in January 2004 that won't even be out for another 6 months? Cadillac will share the new LS7 engine when it comes out in the next Z06 next year for 2006.

As for the GTO, I don't remember if it was Lynn Myers from Pontiac or Bob Lutz who stated that GTO would evolve each year, and each edition would have upgraded performance. We know the LS2 is coming next year, and there is evidence that the 2006 will either be supercharged or have the LS7, so it's going to be quicker still.

As for the GTO's weight, yes it's heavier than the Cobra...by just 70 pounds! Therefore, the LS2 powered GTO should easily accelerate as quickly as the current Cobra. As for the future Mustang Cobra, it's not due till model year 2006! GTO gets another power upgrade that year which should put it on par with the Cobra.



As for the other discussions as to if Cobra & GTO are in the same market, of course they are. There is less than a 100 pound difference between GTO & Cobra. GTO is also running around $32K to Cobra's $35K. Both cars are roughly the same length, width, and height. Both cars seat 4 people in a somewhat upright fashion. Neither car is aimed towards budget conscious enthusiasts and both cars are marketed to people who want something a little exclusive & special. Where the cars differ is that GTO has the better interior & handling feel, Cobra is a rocket that has SVT's outstanding four star service & support.

 

So you are telling me that the GTO "may" get a supercharged version of the LS2 engine???

While this engine probably would not have the same power as the Z06 engine (I could see a rating of 450hp), I really don't see GM allowing the GTO to have significantly more power than the standard Corvette engine.

What I meant by "old" engine technology is this. The GTO has gotten the outgoing standard Corvette engine. Meaning that for 1 model year it is running the same engine as the base Corvette. If it gets the LS2 engine for the '06 model year, it would again be running the same engine as the base Corvette.

Pontiac is not a prestige brand, as Cadillac is. While GM may have loosened their tie a bit by allowing Cadillac to use some "outgoing" Corvette Z06 engine, I really don't see them allowing any lowly Pontiac that same freedom. Also, I would find it odd that they would allow any Pontiac to have more power than the CTSV.

This is not a slam of GM by any means. I just base this off of what GM has done for years in regards to Vette technology. Yes they have gotten a bit more open about it. However, I can't see them letting one of their lower divisions like Pontiac the same freedom that their premium division aka Cadillac has.

Of course, they may prove me wrong. It wouldn't be the first time I have been wrong............ and won't be the last.

 

Cobra is listed at 3,665. GTO is listed at 3,761 for M6 cars and 3,774 for A4's. So it's actually more like 100-120lbs. difference.
And how is it going to "easily" accelerate as quickly as the current Cobra? I seriously doubt they'll make the 380-390rwhp needed to do it. Add in the skinny 245/45-17's and IRS and GTO's don't launch any better than '03/'04 Cobras. They suffer from wheelhop just as frequently as Cobras. Going from a 350hp LS1 to a 390hp LS2 isn't going to close the gap enough.
It's due in '06 as MY'07. Lightning is due in '05 as MY'06. Ford has a promotional "Powerlease" program structured around these dates for current Cobras and L's.
Well...you're predicting two powertrains into the future. I'd wait to see how it fairs with the LS2 before reading into Lutz's past comments about the following offerings.
The '07 Cobra is going to be a bad b*tch. GTO will need to step it up significantly to keep pace.
I say...bring 'em on!
S.

 

1. The LS1 is GM's only current automotive V8 that was configured for rear wheel drive till they pumped money converting Cadillac XLR's Northstar engine. The higher cost LS6 resides in the higher cost Z06 Corvette and the higher cost CTSv. The same will go for the LS7. If there is a more expensive version of the GTO in the future, it's not at all a far reach to expect it to have the same engine, or at the least similar horsepower.

2. I suspect you have fallen victum to that "Urban Legend" that nothing has more power than the Corvette. That legend stops at the Chevrolet showroom door, because other GM divisions have frequently had cars that put out as much power (and in a few instances more) than the Corvette. Nothing can be faster (or have more horsepower) than Corvettes inside Chevrolet's showrooms. As for other GM divisions, it's up to their general managers, the direction they want their division to go, the chassis available, the profit & image potential, and finally convincing GM's product managers.

BTW: these cars were either quicker or packed more horsepower than same year Corvettes:

1987 Buick GNX (way quicker than that years Corvette, even the later ZR1!)
1989 Pontiac Turbo Trans Am (quicker than that year's Corvette)
1985-1987 Buick Grand Nationals (carried the same horspower ratings as Corvettes of that time)
1977-1979 Pontiac Trans Am T/A 6.6 (same horsepower figures as L82 Corvettes, and typically matched Corvettes acceleration each year).

Prior to the 70s, other GM divisions had engines that match or exceeded Corvette's power output, and since the 80s, the only vehicles capable of having engines that matched Corvettes were B-bodies & F-bodies. Both carried Corvette LT1s (altered for more low end torque and in B-bodies, quieter exhaust systems), and future Camaros carried Corvette's LS1 with lower power ratings because of nothing more than the inability to fit as free an exhaust as Corvette had. LS1 F-bodies still had more torque available at lower RPM ranges though.

Corvettes are quicker simply because they're lighter.

The LS6 was developed especially for Corvette, since there was nothing else to put it in. The LS7 won't be a Corvette only engine after the 1st year.

 

I read the GTO was 3725lbs. Either way they are pretty damn close. Cobras a dynoing about 405-420HP at the crank, many expect the LS2 to be underrated from about 430HP, if that is the case than it should be a good fight, the only thing keeping the GTO slower will be the 245 all season tires.

 

Of course the LS2 in the GTO is going to be significantly underrated...this is z28.com!
Until one is on a dyno, I won't buy the rumors and expectations that the LS2 will be underrated in GTO. Any number of sources will verify the weights I posted.
And "405-420" is (not surprisingly) low. At 364rwhp, my car is making ~428hp at the crank. My dyno numbers are about average for an '03, and lower than '04 cars...which are usually in the ~380rwhp range. This is thought to be due to a leaner calibration in the EEC on the '04 cars, while the '03's are pig-rich from ~4500rpm up.
Despite all the guesses, predictions and prognostications, the current GTO is a mid to high-13 second car in the manual version and a high-13 to low-14 second car with an A4. Most barely touch 104mph, and many barely crack 100mph through the traps.
If some think the LS2 is now going to magically put in on equal footing with Cobra, I say...bring it.
S.

 

if GM makes the GTO as powerful as the cobra, it will be the better car, thats my opinion.

its up to GM to do it.