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Why Camaro need a 400hp MIDLEVEL engine...

Old 11-02-2004, 03:46 PM
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Why Camaro need a 400hp MIDLEVEL engine...

Since some part of the old peanut gallery here seems to think that the title is an outlandish statement bordering on pure insanity, I'm gonna make my own thread out of it and 'splain:

Here we go:

First, how much more expensive do you think it is to produce a 400hp LS2 instead of an all aluminum 325hp 5.3 liter?

ANS: Darned little. Why? Well, look at the engines themselves.

Hyper-u-xplode-it pistons in both? Check.
Crankshaft costs the same? Check.
Rods the same price? Check.
Coil packs? Check.
Cam? Check - note that this motor will not be able to use a run-of-the-mill 5.3 liter cam to achieve the power.
Valves? Check - same technology in both. The LS2 does not use special (hollow-stem) valves.
Valve springs and hardware? Close to, if not identical pricing.
Block? Check - trucks don't get aluminum blocks, so there goes the economy of scale there.
PCM? Check. Component-wise, without DOD, I bet they're identical.
Intake? Check. A high-hp 5.3 manifold wouldn't be used in the trucks, due to the need for torque.
Throttle body? Might be a slight advantage there for the 5.3 if the truck throttle body can be used.
Fasteners? Same.
Gaskets? Same.
Water pump? Same.
Oil pump? Same.
Oil pan? Usually program-specific anyway.
Engine sensors and electronics? Same.

There's no price advantage to using the 5.3 liter. The LS2 would be a just-fine swap with only a minor (if any...) true cost differential.


Well, what about the drivetrains?

ANS: They're already on the way. CTSv and GTO are going to use similar differentials and transmissions, and a 325hp 5.3 Zeta isn't going to slouch around with a glass-jaw 10-bolt, so no savings there either.



Well, you could market it at a lower price!

ANS: No, you really couldn't. The actual production cost for the two is nearly identical. The only way you get to do this is if you soak the guys buying an LS2 car.



Other important points:

1) Mustang GT WILL move up in power, along with plenty of other cars (Evo, WRX STi, M3, etc..). GM will need to stay clearly on top of that mess.

2) You still need a car to deal with Mach 1's and Cobras, which are going to hover in the low-mid 30's, and a 400hp LS2 will very shortly not be enough motor to get the job done. That's why you need the room to move up to a 450hp or better motor.

3) GM has held the LS2 back. How? Look at the cam - it's a dead ringer for the old LS6 cam on .3 liter larger motor. How in hell does that make sense? .3 liters are sitting there begging for more cam, but GM didn't provide it... kinda odd, eh?

4) DOD can still be used in the LS2 with the appropriate changes. Since a high-strung 5.3 liter with DOD won't be any better on gas than an LS2 with DOD, what the hell is the point???

5) Who looks at a turd of a 305 equipped 3rd gen with envy now? NOBODY. The first thing anyone with the cash does is ****-can that boat-anchor of a motor.

6) WHY DIVIDE THE AFTERMARKET????

7) WHY MAKE IT HARDER TO SET UP FACTORY-SPONSORED RACING CLASSES???

8) WHY SELL A CAR WITH PERFORMANCE CLEARLY CHALLENGED BY A PREVIOUS BODY STYLE, 5 YEARS LATER???

9) WHY NOT DRIVE A STAKE RIGHT BETWEEN THE EYES OF YOUR COMPETITION PERFORMANCE-WISE WHEN YOU CAN EASILY DO SO???

10) WHY IGNORE THE ECONOMY OF SCALE BENEFITS YOU GET BY SPREADING THE LS2 OVER AS MANY CARS AS POSSIBLE???

A midlevel V8 that doesn't blow the competition straight into the weeds is a waste of effort.

Go big or go home.

275hp V6
400hp V8
450hp UPLEVEL V8
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Old 11-02-2004, 04:10 PM
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Re: Why Camaro need a 400hp MIDLEVEL engine...

I dont see cars in the pony car price range topping 400hp. Look at the insurance rates on the ls1 cars now because kids could afford them.
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Old 11-02-2004, 04:12 PM
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Re: Why Camaro need a 400hp MIDLEVEL engine...

Originally Posted by PacerX
Block? Check - trucks don't get aluminum blocks, so there goes the economy of scale there.
Actually the H.O. L33 and DoD LH6 do use aluminum blocks.

By your reasoning GM should only build the 427 LS7 and put it in everything (I wouldn't complain )
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Old 11-02-2004, 05:08 PM
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Re: Why Camaro need a 400hp MIDLEVEL engine...

Originally Posted by PacerX

Go big or go home.

275hp V6
400hp V8
450hp UPLEVEL V8
You've convinced me.

But seeing as how going big is part of what got us at home in the first place Im still skeptical. The sales of this car if and when it is produced depend on a hell of a lot more than raw power. Maybe that doesen't need to be stated but...
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Old 11-02-2004, 05:14 PM
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Re: Why Camaro need a 400hp MIDLEVEL engine...

Originally Posted by Z28x
Actually the H.O. L33 and DoD LH6 do use aluminum blocks.

By your reasoning GM should only build the 427 LS7 and put it in everything (I wouldn't complain )
Old ones were iron blocks.
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Old 11-02-2004, 05:28 PM
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Re: Why Camaro need a 400hp MIDLEVEL engine...

Originally Posted by PacerX
Blah
Blah
Blah
.
Hyper-u-xplode-it pistons in both? Check.
.
Blah
Blah
Blah
Jeezum, can't you get ANYTHING right? It's Hyper-PATHETIC, not hyper-u-xplode-it pistons.

Jeez.


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Old 11-02-2004, 05:37 PM
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Re: Why Camaro need a 400hp MIDLEVEL engine...

Originally Posted by PacerX
Old ones were iron blocks.
Yes, up until last year except SSR/TrailBlazer V8, all were iron block. This year they added the 310HP L33 and 300HP DoD LH6 the the Aluminum 5.3L lineup.

I'd like to see GM make brand specific displacements, but that will probably never happen.

Last edited by Z28x; 11-02-2004 at 05:44 PM.
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Old 11-02-2004, 05:47 PM
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Re: Why Camaro need a 400hp MIDLEVEL engine...

This post is further proof of why you need to lay off the drugs

Seriously there is no need for a 400hp mid-level V8.
Like falchulk said---the insurance would be very high and prohibit people from owning a V8 Camaro.

Not to mention the mere thought of 400hp would scare lots of people away.
I am just talking about people that want a V8 and not a V6.

Then watch them go buy a Mustang GT. Sure the hp of that car will be up by the time the Camaro comes out. But not a 100 hp jump!!

Plus a DOD 5.3L will still get better mileage then a DOD 6.0--and GM has to keep there CAFE figures high.

A mid-level V8 Camaro just has to be competitive with a Mustang GT, close in
price and performance.

But I am sure none of this will convice you. We are living in a renasiance of performance that died with the end of the muscle cars back in the 70's--and stills some people won't be happy until
you can buy a 500hp Aveo.
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Old 11-02-2004, 06:04 PM
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Re: Why Camaro need a 400hp MIDLEVEL engine...

Originally Posted by 305fan
This post is further proof of why you need to lay off the drugs

Seriously there is no need for a 400hp mid-level V8.
Like falchulk said---the insurance would be very high and prohibit people from owning a V8 Camaro.

Not to mention the mere thought of 400hp would scare lots of people away.
I am just talking about people that want a V8 and not a V6.

Then watch them go buy a Mustang GT. Sure the hp of that car will be up by the time the Camaro comes out. But not a 100 hp jump!!

Plus a DOD 5.3L will still get better mileage then a DOD 6.0--and GM has to keep there CAFE figures high.

A mid-level V8 Camaro just has to be competitive with a Mustang GT, close in
price and performance.

But I am sure none of this will convice you. We are living in a renasiance of performance that died with the end of the muscle cars back in the 70's--and stills some people won't be happy until
you can buy a 500hp Aveo.
first sane response here

why does a BASE v8 need to have 400 hp?
you could potentially scare away sales (who the heck really needs 400 hp in a base v8 car)

i am convinced that people buy the base v8 for the torque and sound (and bragging rights) rather than all out hp
look at the 3rd gen since you mentioned it
sure it didn't have hp but it sold...so what the he** has changed by now?
sure we have higher hp cars now but i can guarantee that if the base camaro looks good and has a 300-330 hp v8 in it, it will sell like hotcakes

i'll wait for a rebuttal (sp?)
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Old 11-02-2004, 06:06 PM
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Re: Why Camaro need a 400hp MIDLEVEL engine...

My only concern would be insurance....

But who knows anymore...they way the rumors are flying, the Camaro may come complete with JATO packs on the sides!
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Old 11-02-2004, 06:21 PM
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Re: Why Camaro need a 400hp MIDLEVEL engine...

Somehow, i think things will be just like they were on the 4th gens with only one v6 and one v8 offered. Probably a 240-250hp 3.9 v6 for the base model, and a 380-400hp ls2 for the z28's and SS's.
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Old 11-02-2004, 06:29 PM
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Re: Why Camaro need a 400hp MIDLEVEL engine...

Yes, it would be nice to have it, but for just the reason of having a mild Camaro for thoes who just want a little hp with some good style.
Also, how many more 305's did GM buid then 350 Thid gens? Did the 350 cost that much more to build then a 305? Did GM do it anyway?
Again, you are turning this car into a 4 seater Vette, and not a Pony car. You need to consider the volume sale. Last thing we need are more 16 and 17 year old kids with a new Camaro with 400hp under there right foot. 400hp!! That is still a lot of power for a factory car.
A 330-350hp 5.3 with DoD would be just fine for the mid level car. It offers plenty of power to keep ahead of the what else is out there, i.e. Mustang GT, and then you have a LS2 that can get up close and personal to much more expensive cars..
You cant call the 5.3 a "turd" like the 305 was. If the 5.3 makes just enough power to beat the Mustang GT, then I dont see a problem.
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Old 11-02-2004, 06:37 PM
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Re: Why Camaro need a 400hp MIDLEVEL engine...

I prefer Hyper-u-craptic....

There is never to much power. Im in the middle of a redo on my Camaro. Im hoping for 900rwhp (should see 850 for sure) So, a 6L 400 HP starting point sounds just fine and dandy to me!


Originally Posted by Bob Cosby
Jeezum, can't you get ANYTHING right? It's Hyper-PATHETIC, not hyper-u-xplode-it pistons.

Jeez.


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Old 11-02-2004, 08:44 PM
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Re: Why Camaro need a 400hp MIDLEVEL engine...

Amazing.
I dont know where to start.

Lets begin by looking a succesfully selling pony car - Mustang...which is also our target.

Mustangs 2003 numbers
V6 Coupe 59,943
V6 Convertible 26,500
GT Coupe 26,238
GT Convertible 15,518
Centennial Coupe 717
Centennial Convertible 1,323
Mach 1 9,652
Cobra Coupe 8,394
Cobra Convertible 5,082
TOTAL 155,370

27% of Mustng buyers bought the mid-level V8 with ONLY!!! 260hp.
I think that is fine. People get their "V8 fix" but dont get in trouble with their insurance company, it doesnt scare off the wives, and doesnt need to really, because most of these GT's will never see the track. This is what they want.

The car is moderatly priced, and sells well, leaving room both below and above for people who want the car as cheap as they can get it, and those who want extra performance.

MSRPs
Convertible, premium (V6) $26,525
GT Coupe, deluxe $24,110
GT Coupe, premium $25,280
GT Convertible, deluxe $28,415
GT Convertible, premium $29,585
Mach 1 $28,995

Now look at this....GT verts sold more than Mach1's at virtually the SAME PRICE. Maybe someone at the dealership was telling them that their Vert was faster than the Mach.....I mean....people only buy cars based on power figures right?

What I like about this price structure is that you have your model geared towards your enthusiasts right there, just a bit more than the GT, actually less than a loaded GT 'vert; and some people are actually buying V6 verts that cost almost as much as a Mach1. Weird.

Im not saying that the Camaro shouldnt have a ton of power.It needs a performance model, like the Mach, priced similar to a loaded mid-model. Im saying there is more of a market for a 300hp 5.3L Camaro than a 400hp Camaro, Ill buy the performace model, and buy the wife a Mid-V8 so she doesnt kill herself.

Lastly...its becoming more and more aparent to me that what you say this car NEEDS isnt what it needs to be succesful at all, instead its what it needs to make YOU happy. Remember Guions post long ago about the enthusiast helping to kill the F-body?


GM will build a car for you, called the Z28, dont worry.
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Old 11-02-2004, 10:26 PM
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Re: Why Camaro need a 400hp MIDLEVEL engine...

Originally Posted by L.A. Z
Amazing.
I dont know where to start.

Lets begin by looking a succesfully selling pony car - Mustang...which is also our target.

Mustangs 2003 numbers
V6 Coupe 59,943
V6 Convertible 26,500
GT Coupe 26,238
GT Convertible 15,518
Centennial Coupe 717
Centennial Convertible 1,323
Mach 1 9,652
Cobra Coupe 8,394
Cobra Convertible 5,082
TOTAL 155,370

27% of Mustng buyers bought the mid-level V8 with ONLY!!! 260hp.
I think that is fine. People get their "V8 fix" but dont get in trouble with their insurance company, it doesnt scare off the wives, and doesnt need to really, because most of these GT's will never see the track. This is what they want.

The car is moderatly priced, and sells well, leaving room both below and above for people who want the car as cheap as they can get it, and those who want extra performance.

MSRPs
Convertible, premium (V6) $26,525
GT Coupe, deluxe $24,110
GT Coupe, premium $25,280
GT Convertible, deluxe $28,415
GT Convertible, premium $29,585
Mach 1 $28,995

Now look at this....GT verts sold more than Mach1's at virtually the SAME PRICE. Maybe someone at the dealership was telling them that their Vert was faster than the Mach.....I mean....people only buy cars based on power figures right?

What I like about this price structure is that you have your model geared towards your enthusiasts right there, just a bit more than the GT, actually less than a loaded GT 'vert; and some people are actually buying V6 verts that cost almost as much as a Mach1. Weird.

Im not saying that the Camaro shouldnt have a ton of power.It needs a performance model, like the Mach, priced similar to a loaded mid-model. Im saying there is more of a market for a 300hp 5.3L Camaro than a 400hp Camaro, Ill buy the performace model, and buy the wife a Mid-V8 so she doesnt kill herself.

Lastly...its becoming more and more aparent to me that what you say this car NEEDS isnt what it needs to be succesful at all, instead its what it needs to make YOU happy. Remember Guions post long ago about the enthusiast helping to kill the F-body?


GM will build a car for you, called the Z28, dont worry.
well done
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