That may be true too, but again, I hate the Zeta bashing.

Even if it does not make for a good Camaro, that does not mean that it can't make for other good performance coupes, ala GTO...

And THAT is the frustrating part... if OTHER cars get flushed because of one.

 

Actually, I think it would make an excellent GTO. I just have issue with turning Camaro into a Chevy GTO....simply to make the business case for Pontiac's GTO.

Let's see how it all shakes out. We've gone through afew renditions already....we'll probably go through some more.

 

It's just a little nuts.

It's said Firebird has no chance of coming back, because it's too close to Camaro.

Then the next Camaro is supposed ot be based on the next GTO. (Sounds like a familiar problem).

Now, the next GTO could get the axe, because it won't make a good Camaro?!

Oiy.

How about just building the Zeta GTO anyway, since the platform and the assembly plant will exist anyway for the Zeta sedans, and then continue on the new path for Camaro, instead of just killing the Zeta coupes?

You'd end up with two DISTINCTLY DIFFERENT RWD coupes instead of sister cars.... rather than a repeat of what we had before, but with one name changed.

I just don't get it.

 

Has the timeline changed on the next-gen CTS? It's due for its next version in 2006 or 2007 (my 2007 or my 2008?)...

Also, would Caddy be willing to give up its' kung-fu grip on Sigma at this point, now that the tooling is paid for and it has three cars on its' line? Possibly, could Caddy owe Chevy because the XLR on the C6 platform?

 

Okay, I don't like what I'm hearing...

But, if Velite were to move to Epsilon, why couldn't GM make it AWD instead of FWD? Epsilon is obviously capable of AWD, demand for AWD is rising steadily and Lincoln has made public plans to drastically expand AWD offerings in their portfolio. (They are a traditional Buick competitor) It only makes sense to me.

The GTO being cancelled or "shelved" is a VERY bad idea in my opinion. Pontiac IS the performance division, and they cannot pull that image off without a halo performance car. If they were Acura or Mazda things might be different. But the consumer PERCEIVES Pontiac as the big American muscle car and performance division. Because of that perception, the GTO can make or break a lot of purchases.

If GM is using market demand for this GTO to determine a business caes for a new GTO then that itself is flawed. This GTO was a dated, warmed over, bland and overpriced offering. Because, once again, of GM suffering with PERCEPTION vs. reality the car did not sell until money was put on the hood. Let's face it; the GTO is a GREAT performance machine and a desirable buy but it isn't something that appeals to enthusiast's and the general public's perception of what a GTO or Pontiac stands for.

If the Camaro comes back watered down and bloated then I'd rather it not come back at all. It would be nothing more than an exclamation point on the fact that GM waters down and 'bureaucrats' everything to death.

GM need to LEARN from it's mistakes. The SSR suffered the same watering down fate as the 'F5' seems certain to suffer. The GTO wasn't true to perception and the F4 wasn't marekted and had a flawed business plan from the beginning. It seems as if we're in for this all over again with the new products.

So with this current plan what do we have? Well, we have a Chevrolet coupe that has LIMITED appeal that's been on the market since 2000 and will continue to have limited appeal even with the new face. We have Pontiac with an underwhelming halo that they have no planned replacement for and we have Buick trying to peddle overpriced G6 variants hoping to receive a Holden knock-off, in the same manner that the knock-off for Pontiac didn't work, to make them a viable premium division once again. All the while Chrysler is experiencing a fabulous renaissance with the original idea of 'RWD and affordable offerings' and the Asians continue to eat the truck market. I hate to be pessimistic, but that's what I see.

P.S. Chrysler has consistently increased market share since the introduction of thier LX cars. They have done almost everything right. Built a conservative business plan, appeal to the consumers percption of what an American car and what a Chrysler car is supposed to be and made the cars attainable for everyone via affordability. GM needs to do what it's good at and that's building affordable, appealing vehciles with American character and style in addition to buidling quality and value to combat the Asians. They don't need to copycat and they don't need to dumb things down.

 

I understand what you're getting at....who really knows? Maybe GM can't find a business case to do two 2+2 RWD coupes on two different platforms. When you think about it, is there really anyone else that does this? Chrysler couldn't even do a Charger coupe, it had to be on the same ol' LX platform. Nissan put the G35 coupe on the same platform as the 350Z (though shortened for the Z). If rumors of a RWD Cougar hold up at Mercury, do you really think it'll be on a completely different platform as Mustang?

The business case for what you're suggesting probably can't be made because the coupe market has dwindled and isn't showing signs of huge potential growth right now. Sad, but true.

 

A good counter-point...

But, if Zeta is pretty much done, then how much effort is in it to simply set up a coupe on the platform... especially if that coupe can be manufactuered at the same assembly plant as the Zeta sedans?

I would think it would be minimal cost and effort in the grand scope of things....

I also suspect this is where the whispers of the next GTO being a 2-door verison of the next Grand Prix or G8 came from...

 

Dunno. Like I said, how much effort would it have been to chop 2 doors off the new "Charger's" design and call it a day? I don't know the auto industry and the science behind product business cases nearly well enough to even touch that one.

 

Charger is an interesting paradox....

It seems from what DCX says, that they never even wanted a 2-door... so, even if it was economically sensable, it doesn't sound like they had any interest in doing it...

Pontiac, on the other hand... WANTS another 2-door GTO, but now may not have a way to do it now.

 

What the DCX execs in the motherland said they wanted and what the dyed-in-the-wool Dodge gearheads wanted behind closed doors may have been two very different things....we just don't know. Gotta roll with the company line I suppose.

Enough for now, I gotta get back to work!!!

 

Ya, that is true too... I'm CONFIDENT there were at least a few folks within Dodge that wanted a Charger Coupe.... maybe just not the people that mattered as far as descisions go...

 

I am starting to wonder if Bob Lutz got over ruled on this one by the bean counters. I would imagine he used a bit of political capital to get the Solstice where it is (a program that will loose money)...and lets not forget, the current GTO is idea. The current performance of the GTO saleswise may have scared a lot of people at GM and created "I told you so's" concerning Holden. I am going to go out on a limb and say the GM was loosing money selling GTO's at $24 and $25K...and the GTO had a lot of profit built in. I would not be surpised if someone at GM said "Hey, wait up...lets get some volume Zeta cars out there....then we can worry about replacing the GTO. Maybe if it is off the market a few years, teh current car, and the "polarizing" public opinion surrounding it will subside. Though I love the GTO, I really do not think GM saw themselves where they are now with the GTO in terms of average sales price, and public perception. GM's sagging business overall makes matters even worse.

That being said, I think there will be a new GTO...but it will have to wait till Chevy gets the RWD Chevelle/MC, which will be a few years out.

I think the Buick Sedan will be consuming Holden's capacity currently used by GTO.

 

OK, I'm going to make just one point. Holden gets Zeta and on that platform it will build most if not all of the following for the next 3-7 years.:
Two sedans
a coupe?
a Ute
a wagon
a 4 door Ute
AWD variants of the above


So, Zeta is far from dead and in GM's back pocket.

"In case of emergency-Break glass"

Could be something like that going through the minds of GMNA execs.

 

Getting back to this Velite thing and Epsilon......

I'm simply shocked at how much I like the Epsilon based Caddy BLS.