Agreed.

 

I find this interesting because the Velite is supposed to be basically a Buick's version of the GTO. We all know that costs are saved by spreading variants of a platform across multiple brands.

My question is...what happens to Chevy's large coupe, and the next GTO if they don't also have a Buick to spread costs. I would not be surpised if GM did not look at the large Chevy Coupe and think of putting it on Epsilon too. I think a small FWD/AWD Malibu SS coupe with say 250 HP would sell better than a Large RWD Chevelle. If Chevy, and Buick go Epsilion...what happens to GTO?

I think the current GTO has shown that there is not a huge market for a large RWD coupe. Especially ones that cost north of $30K (GTO sold like hotcakes once money was on the hood). I am not sure it would be wise of GM to saturate this market with three such cars.

All just a bunch of brainstorming.....


Also, I think no one here would have issue with a Epsilon Velite.......if GM had not already shown it on Zeta (supposedly).

 

 

I was really hoping no one else was hearing something along those lines. I really did not think it was possible.

 

Then how would you explain cars lie the Mustang and G35?

GTO isn't that big, it is shorter than a 4th gen Camaro and only 2 in. longer than a 2005 Mustang. GTO is 8" shorter than the Monte Carlo which has no problem selling 60,000.

GTO does need to loose some weight, but it needs to keep it's practicle back seat. Back seat for adults is a must in the GTO even if it cost trunk space. the weak back seat hurt the Camaro a lot.

Build a GTO that looks like the Woodward GTO and offer a 330HP LS4 and 400HP LS2, give it cloth seats and optional heated leather and price it from $27,995-$34,995 and Pontiac will have no problem selling more GTOs than the less practicle more expensive Corvette.

 

Well there is such a thing as overplaying your hand. For example, let's take a 15-20K annual unit program and have it "wag the dog" on a 100K++ program.

After awhile, it starts getting ridiculous.

 

GREAT POST. I can definitely see all the evidence that's piling up on this forum pointing to the GM RWD V8's cancellation. The way I look at it is...less in-house competition for Gen 5.

 

Would I have been willing to pay $50K for the big, low slung and unlikely-to-be-built 300C convertible? I've always felt that Chrysler's 300C convertible concept from five years ago was closer to the mark than Buick's oddly proportioned Velite.

Personally, I never believed that a 400hp twin turbo Velite would ever see production. If GM can slap a new front clip on the Pontiac G6 convertible (and a plank of plastic wood on the dash) Buick will have a high profit niche product.

 

Yikes. GM's apparent reversal on their "GTO is here to stay" stance is pretty shocking to say the least. Maybe they realized people expect more out of a legendary nameplate, fair or unfair. Maybe they figure the G8 will cause too much product overlap and will fill the Pontiac flagship role just as well if not better than a new GTO (although I think the "oomph" of the GTO nameplate makes it more suitable for that role). The biggest "good" thing for us though is that GM may have finally realized making our new Camaro march to the beat of a far less-produced car's drum doesn't make too much sense....I suppose in a perfect world the GTO and Camaro would co-exist except on very different platforms (GTO being larger, fast and more luxurious but less nimble).

Wow.

 

well if Buick wants to go after lexus then they may have to do that. I always looked at it as a SC430 competitor. I dont know if u know this but those start at 64,225 so i dont understand the problem. If GM did their typicall thing of undercutting competition in higher up models than i would estimate they would charge roughly 55 thousand. If it has more room than the SC i think it would steal many sales because when i went to a lexus dealer and sat in an SC with the top up. I couldnt fit. thats the only car ive had that problem with. Im 5'9" maybe 5'10" on a good day and always have had atleast an inch of headroom and that is in cramped areas and forget about the back seats in the SC. maybe a newborn baby could fit but thats it. So if it had more room, was just as nice, if not nicer, and have around 320 hp (maybe they could snag the Northstar?) than they would steal many sales from Lexus.

 

Two words: Holden Statesman.

1. Making a car like the Velite as originally planned is creating a car that not only would be expensive to develop, and not only expensive to buy, but honestly, how many expensive, rear drive, convertible hardtops with no nostalgic history are going to sell?

2. Do you honestly think that a FWD Buick convertible hardtop is going to steal ANY thunder from a low priced FWD budget sedan (Impala), a modest price FWD sports sedan (Grand Prix), and a large V8 powered RWD sedan (the "G8")? The worry about it stealing the G6's thunder is also extremely laughable, because you just mentioned 2 cars that that already compete for the same buyer (Impala & Grand Prix), and there's plenty more GM successfuly does.

3. Velite isn't a car an enthusiast will buy. The Lexus SC 430 is the car that the Velite would compete with: convertible steel top, RWD, advanced powertrain. The SC 430 costs $63,000. It's buyers tends to be in their 50s or older. The car weighs 3800# even though it's a mere 177" long. It has only an automatic, and it sells in quanities that make the GTO seem like it's blazing the sales charts.

The point I'm making here is that this is one car that can go FWD. It's target market isn't one that would care if it's FWD or not, and it's not an enthusiasts car. It's not destined to sell even at Corvette (or even XLR) levels. If GM put based it on the G6 convertible hardtop, all the engineering work is done, it's going to be quick to market, you can add a knockout stylish interior and a Buick body, sell it for 35-40 large (5-10K over a simular G6), and it will do alot better & make GM more money than a Velite based version.

GM needs the money, and Buick needs a halo car. If I were GM, that's what I'd do.

It does seem like a bad business case, making a large GTO and Velite chassis that would only move 30,000 vehicles, while Camaro has the potential to move 100,000.

Taking a leap into speculation-land, lets assume GTO were based on the larger Holden Commodore. The Velite concept also seems like it was based on the large Commodore chassis. Let's also assume IF someone was working on a Camaro, it would need a different structure (lower roof and unique body vs the sedan based GTO & Velite).

If this were the case, being that we are talking about 1 car that would probally sell at 20,000 annually, and another selling at 12-15,000 annually, would that be enough for a North American GM who tends to view anything selling under 20,000 annually, to be worth producing??

Looking at it this way, a Camaro structure that has a potential of selling at between 75-100,000 per year or more might seem like a better investment than spending the cash on a large 2 door. Unless Holden makes it in Australia again.

Just trying to think the way I believe GM would be looking at all this.

 

So now GM is gearing up to produce a car to fight the Lexus SC 430...which makes the GTO look like a breakneck seller? Talk about answering another question that no one asked (SSR)...if you look at it from that standpoint. Although I admit Buick needs that halo car, and even a G6 derived FWD hardtop convertible car is WAY more exciting than anything they've got right now. As far as the "thunder stealing" comment, I can definitely see where you are coming from since the Buick would be in it's own segment. Although one would have thought they would've broadened their audience a little bit. But I'm being too narrow-minded now, I'm sure more than just 50+ Lexus shoppers will find this car worth buying. Again, I was thinking in terms that lumped all FWD cars together

I also concur that Velite moving to FWD makes future GTO even less profitable. Perhaps the G8 will take over as Pontiac's flagship...and the silver lining would be that Camaro that doesn't have to compromise.

 

NOW you all know.

 

Let's just say that the next generation GTO was based on plans that are now obsolete.


No, no one said anything about GM cancelling RWD V8s.

As I keep saying, plans are still being reviewed. There's still more to come.

Let's see if Bob Lutz, Gary Cowger, Lori Queen, or Brent DeWar have something to say between now and the end of press days at the New York autoshow.

 

What do you mean by, "NOW you all know?"

Are we suggesting that the next-generation domestic built Zeta-based GTO is history? Could we be talking about yet another Australian built "Goat," based on the Holden VE?

...OR...

Are we talking about the end of the nameplate?


Is this the end of the GTO? Is it just a change of plan?