I don't know redzed, but this topic's gotten a lil too hot for my liking.

Back to my lurking.

 

I've been hearing both good and bad about V8 RWD cars from GM lately. Some of it makes some sense and follows what's been indicated here in this thread. Some of the decisions (if they have indeed been made) may look bad but might also easily be reversed as time goes by. I'm not so sure that the fat lady has begun to sing,but it sure seems like she is warming-up and practicing her scales.
As to what's good and what's bad-that's a subjective thing and a matter of priority. From what I can gather we all have some things to be happy about, I have something to be very happy about ,and there are some definite disappointments as well. Nuff said 'til more confirmed info. surfaces.

 

It's looking like the GTO program, which was a sure thing on Zeta a few months back is in complete shambles. The fact of the matter is, GM can only make so many niche cars...which right now are the Kappa Roadsters which loose money.

I am going to "assume" GM has axed the large Zeta coupe program as we know it for now....

That being said....you bring a line of Buick Epsilon cars out, and include the Velite as a convertible. Buick actually could do well with a line of smaller cars. Young people do not like big cars in general. A $50K coupe with no nameplate recognition is not how you suck new younger buyers in (keep in mind Buick WANTS young). Since the RWD coupe is low volume, and you have much more galring needs...you file away the work already done, and mothball the plans until the business plans make sense. Seing as how Buick had the only Zeta car we have actually seen, I am willing to bet they were footing a bit of the large RWD Zeta coupe program. Take Buick away, and the other two have major funding issues. There is one large Zeta Coupe down...

Chevy wants, but honestly does not need a large GTOesq RWD coupe. With a Camaro, and just freshened FWD Monte Carlo in the lineup, it makes simply no sense. So, you mothball the large RWD Chevy coupe until the Monte gets replaced, say 2009-10...and then only if the business case makes sense. There are two large Zeta Coupes down...

Pontiac wants a new GTO, but it is looking like the GTO will never be a high volume car again. Without the other two platform mates to help foot the bill, it goes on "hiatus", until GM finds a way to bring the other two online. Plus the current GTO (which I personally love), is not the most popular car in the world. It had to be marked down into the mid $20k's to sell well. A large Zeta coupe would not be profitable at that price point...and maybe not at the current GTO's price point depending on trim. Also, Pontiac was one of the first brands to get it's linup completly revamped, and has spent a bit of captial to get the Solstice to reality. I really do not think they could force through a GTO unless the Buick and Pontiac come along. There are three large Zeta Coupes down...


Now to the Camaro.....
Since the Camaro is still obviuosly on track...I think it is safe to assume that it is part of a completly different platform/program. We also know that GM WILL NOT make the Camaro on a unique platform. Z284EVER has been hinting at Sigma forever. I am wondering if possibly, the Camaro has been designed along side....say....a next generation Cadillac CTS COUPE. Keep in mind, by now the tooling for Sigma is paid for, and any upgrades would be relativly inexpensive. Also, a lot of work has already been done to make Camaro work on Sigma...going back to the 90's. Also, the money saved by developing the two togethor could be used to find ways to save money and bring the Camaro in a lower price point. Just adding 100,000 units of Camaro production to Sigma would signifigantly drive unit cost down. Since Cadillac is the on GM division that gets essentially what it wants, it would make perfect sense to tie the two programs togethor, since Zeta was not as secure.
Then if Camaro does good, you streach it out, and make the 3 original large Zeta Coupes....

All of the above is what I call a SWAG (Scientific Wild *** Guess), but who knows.

 

There is one other element to remember, Holden will be building their VE cars very soon. These are Zeta, and designed with the NA market in mind. I'm certain that we will see some of them here very soon. For the others, The groundwork is there and a product addition wouldn't be to hard to make happen down the road a bit. Niche cars taking turns being built in OZ and tested in the NA market from time to time could be do-able. Especially if a Zeta plant in NA builds and exports some of the Holden models around the world since Holden's plant is at capacity. This way Zeta cars for the NA market could happen fast when a business case is made. GM could hedge their bets and bide their time . Especially if one Zeta is intended for GMNA from the start. There are still some large pieces of this puzzle missing.

 

GM was gun shy about doing the current GTO, and things have not panned out. I do not see them expanding importation beyong the GTO's current 20,000 units.

Importing a car, and trying to coordinate things around the world likely negates any cost savings of Holden doing it.

 

So lets get this strait, and enough of the double talk and half meanings...

GTO, from lack of sister cars, is dead for production in the US.
Camaro could very well be based on Simga due to sister Caddy coupe
Velite could be based on Epsilon 2, using the HF V6's and and 6spd autos.
Zeta will most deffinatly be here for Sedan duty only as of right now.
Depending on success of Camaro, there could be large Zeta based coupes coming in, possibly bringing back GTO.

 

I remember, quite a while ago, when we still talked about saving the bird as well, that the GTO was the nail in the coffin for the Firebird. Well, if the GTO does go away, what are the odds of the Bird looking pretty good to Pontiac?

I know this has been seen a million times, but:

The fire inside Pontiac present and future.
Bold, beautiful, passionate, rebellious. Few cars have defined our lives and times like the great Pontiac Firebird. From the first models, to the awesome Trans Am, to the magnificent madness of the Super Duty 455. There's a story in each and every one; a piece of our past and even a glimmer of the future. Check it out...

 

Also, outta curiosity....

Since Sigma is so flexible....

Wouldn't it be possible to shorten it, and then possibly use Kappa subsystems on it?

I bet that would really take a bit from Sigma's cost.

Again...just a thought...

 

First off, Velite is not a real car. IF it gets approved it could be based on anything. The only thing that I believe has changed now is, that IF it gets approved - for the first time - it has a real chance of going FWD.

As far as Sigma goes.....

Like I've been saying for the past few months.......and gotten plenty of flak for it, (thank you very much ) from some of you guys......Zeta is in the middle of a rethink.

We could end up with Zeta, we could end up with Sigma, we could end up with Zeta which is very heavily "Sigmafied", or we could even end up with something completely different.


One thing for sure....fasten your seatbelts...the next 6-12 months will be a wild ride!!!

 

So, if GM blows up plans for the next GTO, and Camaro is further away than we originally thought, when the current GTO goes away..... GM has nothing as far as RWD Coupes again, besides Corvette?

All this during the "Renassiance of RWD"???

Wow. Just wow.

 

Im already confused. 2 weeks ago i was sure the Camaro was going to be on zeta as well as GTO. now it looks like non of that might happen. Although i really wouldnt mind a sigma based Camaro and if they could bring back a firebird that would be cool as well.

So what exactly is going on with Zeta right now. are they thinking about canning it for US market or putting it on hold for a couple years or what?

 

Put it like this.....

Some people, who really should have known better, lost the vision of what Camaro should be. They wasted alot of time turning it into the "unCamaro".....just because some other divisions wanted to finance their midsized coupes, and figured morphing the Camaro into an intermediate, and piggybacking their products on it was a good idea.

Good idea for Buick and Pontiac, if you can pull it off. Bad idea for Chevy. Chevy should have told them....."over my dead , cold body" from the get-go....but didn't. For the keepers of the Camaro flame at Chevy..........WTF WERE YOU THINKING!!!!!!!!??????

 

That's fine if that really is the case, however...

If Zeta is really coming, and we KNOW that it at least is in sedan form, then it shouldn't be THAT big of a deal to spawn a GTO coupe from the platform.

Or, at the very least, Pontiac should be able to get a version of the next Monaro, even if it is built in Australia, and continue to ship it over as a GTO.

No RWD coupes at all (besides the 2 seater Corvette specialty car) at this stage of the game is inexcusable from the world largest auto manufacturer during the resurgance of RWD. Just totally unacceptible.

 

GM has the Cadillac XLR to handle the SC430

I agree, Having the RWD Camaro and FWD Monte would fill the coupe market fine. Make the next Monte (09-10) FWD/AWD and everyone is happy.


I don't understand why the GTO must be a 20,000 unit/yr. car?? With more traditional GTO styling and a $27K-$28K base price I could easily see it selling 35K-40K a year.

If there are issues with the next GTO an easy solution for Pontiac might be to get a version of the Camaro

 

Well....like I've been saying, essentially anything might/might not happen now. It's gonna be a rollercoaster ride.

But I think that we can now debunk this myth which has been floating around the internet:

[internet myth]"Zeta is the most awesome-est architecture ever invented. Although, we know no specifics, other than it's Greek letter name, we can safely say.... that this super Ninja-fied platform will outperform everything ever devised by man...and also be so cheap that GM will FOR SURE, make the business case for 3 large coupes and one ponycar coupe....and they'll all be out by '07...FOR SURE. It can be made ANYWHERE and in ANY size ANY time. Even if you flip burgers for a living, you'll be able to afford a Zeta coupe which will blow away the CTSv. Those stupid Cadillac boys won't know what hit them....they don't know how good Zeta is"[/internet myth]