Hmm, how much smaller are we talking about here?

 

The reason nobody warmed up to the GTO was the style. I'm not saying it looks bad, the shape is nice and clean. However, it looks like a 90's Caviler or a 97 Grand Prix coupe, not something new for 2004. Bob Cosby said it best, you don't know its a GTO when you are driving down the road.

Also, the more mature buyer definetly buys cars with flashy "boy-racer" looks. Apparently more mature men do not buy the GTO look, based on sales numbers. I see 350z's, G35 coupes, RX-8's, and S2000's all over the place where I live. And most of the time, it is an older guy driving them.

Also, they should not have called it a GTO. People were thinking it would be a throwback, possibly retro, and very flashy like the orginal. Maybe they should have called it the, gasp, Monaro.

Also, incompetence at GM once again played a significant role of killing this car. They should have rolled out the car in August or September 2003, when the weather was warmer. No, instead we ship them all to the Northeast in January. Then we don't have an adequate supply on hand to sell. My Pontiac dealer had 1 GTO they got in Feburary and finally got 4 more in September. And GM needs to keep a tight leash on their greedy dealers, the Pontiac dealer at my house had a 5K markup on the 1 GTO until June.

GM wouldn't have been in this GTO mess if they hadn't killed the Fbody in the first place.

 

Here is what I don't understand regarding a new "Camaro." Why is everyone so hung up on the name? There is no longer a Nova, Chevelle, or other muscle cars from the 60s and 70s. Whats the big deal. Those cars are collector cars now. As long as GM puts out a affordable RWD V8 car and it performs well, then I will be happy whether or not it is called Camaro, Chevelle or anything else...

As for the GTO. Take it for what it is. If you don't like it oh well. I really like the cars. Ridden in a few and checked out a few more. Very classy car IMO...

 

The Grand Prix GTP coupe was discontinued in 2002 because the GTO was its replacement and the 04 Grand prix would not have a coupe available . Its just that simple . The GTO IS a grand prix gtp coupe replacement . It does look like a mildly re-styled 97-02 Grand prix coupe in pontiacs new design direction .


I never would have thought this when it first came out . Now I believe this name shoulda been left dead forever . It obviously has to much emotional baggage . Pontiac should have named the car a Pontiac Monaro . Ya know what woulda happened then , all winey sob's woulda been woulda been grumbling about how it wasnt called a GTO . Gm is Damned if they do , and damned if they dont . My god I cant wait to hear all the whiners with the new camaro if it ever comes out .

Maybe at the start of 04 production it may have seemed that way , but the car is hardly killed . The GTO sold quite well the past few months . GM didnt do anything wrong , its dealer network did

That is againt the law . All manufactures can only suggest a price .
The dealers can ask what they want for any given car technically . I think GM was as fumed about the whole as you or me or with any new hot model thats marked up all to hell .

It isnt a mess for GM , the GTO has been a sucess for pontiac in technical terms . The only people who view the GTO as a mess , are those who continually need to bitch about how much they hate it .

 

I'd say about a half a foot....or maybe more.

 

Hey, I don't hate it. I can take it for what it is. It is a very nice, very refined car, with an interior to die for. The peformence is also outstanding, and even more so with the LS2 in the 2005 model.

You are right, the name GTO does have a lot of baggage with it. If they called it Monaro instead of GTO, I don't think anybody would be upset or offended for calling it what it is.

Also, GM did screw up by launching this car in the winter, and not having an adequate supply on hand in the early months. Correct me if I am wrong, but it is GM's responsibility to make sure that the cars are correctly distrubuted to the dealers and that they have an adequate supply. Also if the car was a sales sucess, I would tend to think all the 2004's would have sold by now. But there are still 3 down at my Pontiac dealership.

Also the new 2004 Grand Prix 4 door looks significantly different than the 2003 model. I honestly can't say that when comparing a GTO to a 2002 Grand Prix. I know this car is just a quick fix to plug a hole in the lineup, but they could have at least imported one of the hotter looking HSV Monaros, and put some decent wheels on it.


Could GM refuse to ship GTO's to dealers who put markups on them? I don't know if this is legal, but it sure would keep dealers from marking anything up in the future.

Also, I wanted to see this car suceed, but it isn't reaching its sales goal of 18,000 cars a year. GM has already cut production for the 2005's by the way. If this car was a sucess, don't you think there would be a lot more buzz and hoopla surrounding it?

 

That isn't a sales goal, that's a capacity number determine by the UAW and Pontiac. Just like selling 30K F-Bodies with a capacity to build 100K+ cars. The GTO was a success, as much as anybody in the media won't tell you. After all the bumps and bruises along the way, they made 12K+ cars. Next year is a shortened year with another 12K cars planned to be made. They'll sell all of them

 

 

Strange, isn't it, considering that the only thing differentiating this Pontiac from Monaro is the front clip. We know the MOnaro was not styled after Pontiac, it has its own differentiated styling.

Paste a generic Pontiac front clip - and voila, people call the car anything from Grand Prix and Grand Am, to Cavalier and Sebring. Look hard enough at anything, and you will see what you are looking for.

 

Now, what are you basing this on? Personal opinion and the fact that GTO is similar to Grand Prix coupe? Or are you familiar with the internal decisions made by Pontiac in this regard?


Good point. I'm wondering if GM's debate over the Camaro name has specifically to do with GTO's reception and the revival of the legendary name? Perhaps that is why it might NOT be called a Camaro, despite having so many cues to it as seen @ CONGOS.

 

thank you!! I've been harping on overweight 'performance' vehicles for a long time now, and it's good to see that someone else gets it

 

The GTO teaches:

- Don't make a boring performance car.
- Don't use a name unless the car completely deserves it.
- Good interiors go a long way.
- Don't rush cars if they can't be done all correctly for their debut. Take time and get it right.
- Price affordably.
- Dual exhaust is worth it. (even on the unimpressive sounding LS engines, they just ain't SBC's/BBC's)
- Listening to enthusiasts and people that like/know/own the originals will make your cars better and help you with sales. Ignoring them doesn't.
- Make cars to the fullest and people will be willing to pay. They won't pay if they feel the car is worth $4,000 less than it really is or isn't all it could be.

 

Skimmed through this thread, and it's downright amazing how many people are completly misguided on the GTO.

1. The 2004 GTO WAS NOT MADE TO REPLACE THE CAMARO!!
It's amazingly egotistical to think anything sold by GM with a V8, rear drive, and fewer than 4 doors is a Camaro replacement. For Godsakes, it's being sold by PONTIAC, not Chevrolet! Get a grip!!!

2. The 2004 GTO WAS PRICED IN WS6 TRANS AM TERRITORY!!
If it was overpriced, then so were all those Camaro SS and Firebirds with live axle rear ends, early 80s era chassis, Fisher Price dashboards, lowest bidder interior materials, and flex-alot chassis, all of which the same price GTO avoided.

3. The 2004 GTO WAS CONCIEVED AS A BMW FIGHTER!!
Pontiac (rightly or wrongly) began moving towards a "American BMW" market position. The Monaro (along with the Commodore) were successfully challenging BMW's performance levels at a far lower price in Australia for some time. Bringing the Monaro here as the GTO was concieved (again rightly or wrongly) as a focal point to get Pontiac percieved as that in the market place. The whole thing backfired when dealers also began treating it this way with astronomical markups, bringing me to the next point...

4. DEALER MARK UPS AND PONTIAC MARKETING BLEW GTO'S SUCCESS.
Pontiac marketed the GTO as a lower priced BMW alternative, but not before getting the public to view Pontiac that way. As a result, The GTO sat in traditionally reasonably priced Pontiac showrooms with massive dealer markups, no rebates or incentives, and with dealers seemingly doing everything in their power to guarantee not selling any. Dealers get their cue from Pontiac. If Pontiac had told them to treat the car as a step above a Grand Prix and not a limited edition high value car and backed it up with incentives, it would have been a completly different story.

5. Finally, IF YOU THINK GTO IS BORING LOOKING, IT"S PROBALLY NOT MARKETED TO YOU!!
Not everything an automaker puts out that's performance orented has to appeal to a person who's used to driving something that resembles a doorstop! Old Mustangs had no problem burying the 4th gen in sales. That means there is a larger group of people looking for a traditional pony car instead of a 4 passenger Corvette. Grand Ams had no problem selling. GTPs had no problem selling. GTO's sales have roughly doubled since pricing & incentive issues were tackled. To top it off, Holden can't make any more than 18,000 per year available to the US, so average sales will never be half of what even Corvette sells monthly. Not every performance car is made for every enthusiast. Whether they be people who aren't happy unless the GTO looks like a 60s Pontiac or people still peeved about the still defunct Camaro.




GTOs have traditionally been the most expensive of all Muscle Cars, even though it always looked like a run of the mill midsize car (outside of hoodscoops, badges, and taillights, GTOs had all the uniqueness of a Grand Prix or a Bonneville) In today's market, the GTO is exactly where it has traditionally been. But Pontiac tried to take an old name and put it against a luxury label. Pontiac also shot too high in GTO's market position.

With GTO now sporting hood scoops, and aftermarket pieces like it did in the old days, and with it part of Pontiac's normal incentive programs, and with more dealers getting off their arrogant horse on mark-ups and actually letting people test drive the things, I think we'll see a turn around.

In other words, took heed of what GTO taught us.

 

AMEN!

Chris

 

The GTO is not a Camaro replacement, but there is only so much room for a V-8 RWD coup these days so you ca no longer really say theres room for a Firebird and a GTO, a Chevelle and a Camaro. So since the GTO is the sole Pontiac RWD V-8, it still needs to appeal to the former F-body crowd which is reponsible for so much brand loyalty and carrying the banner for the brand. Lets face it, who else can GM rely on being the enthusiasts.... Not the J-body now Cobalt crew.... corvettes are great and all but a far smaller crowd. Without a lower priced RWD V-8, GM is loosing alot of people as evident on this board. I personnally not go out and buy a Mustang, atleast until my Z is out of its last breath. Even then my SBC brain would have a hard time converting.