I know that the new GTO is without a doubt the best one ever, and I could see myself driving one if I was out of school and in the market. However, I do think they used the wrong name for a car that is supposed to compete with BMW's. A car that is supposed to lead the division in a new direction needs a new name, not one with emotional baggage from the past.

 

The GTO isnt too expensive for what you get and most 4-gen Camaros that were on dealers lots in the last few years were all loaded Z28's and SS's that were being sold in the low $30,000's. The fact if you looked what a loaded Camaro SS sold for in 2000-2002 and compared specs and features to a 2004 and especially a new 2005 GTO you would see that the new GTO is relative bargain in comparison.

The problem is that most loyal Pontiac fans hate the generic (non Pontiac-ish) styling of the GTO and while the GTO is a fantastic car that alone is not enough to persuade people to buy a Pontiac who usually buy european or Japanese brands. So in otherwords the people who usually love GM's RWD V8 cars and trucks dont like how the GTO looks and people who like the look and performance of the new GTO will never buy because its a "Pontiac". I know alot of people out here in Southern California that if you just mention the word "Pontiac" they start get a weird look in there eyes.

 

...which is probably also related to why they weren't selling, either.....

 

Ungrateful? What is GM? My Grandma? I owe nothing to GM. I don't have to be grateful when they hand me one of the most bland and overpriced performance cars I have ever seen, in a misguided attempt to fill the gap that the F-body left and perhaps gain new car buyers. I will take my business to Ford, thank you.

Hmm, 19 year old boy racers who could never afford the car? I must belong in the other 5% category.

I am 22 years old with a degree in Mechanical Engineering. I would feel perfectly confident driving my boss in my 2000 Camaro SS. My car is one of the cleanest, well-kept cars on the road. If my boss has a problem with an imaginary lack of class in my choice of automobiles, so be it.

 

Why not? It did last time, and they sold out. Not to mention the GTO was always an expensive muscle car.
The Camaro has always been priced very close to the Mustang, even if it was a better performance car....still didnt pull in the numbers the Mustang did.

Argh..ok let me get this off my chest. The GTO comes from the Monaro, which was designed several years ago by Holden where GM NA had ZERO design influence on it. GM brought it here without spending millions and millions of money on a car that was going to be replaced and built here in teh US...why spend all that money on making all new sheetmetal for a 3 year run? It would have taken another two years till GM came out with a design that everyone wanted. All that money could have went into a new Zeta GTO, instead of trying to please some die hard enthusiast.
As for the Camaro, its being designed to be a Camaro. The Monaro wasnt designed to be a GTO, it was designed to be a Monaro. Thats like taking the Trand Am from America, slapping a Monaro badge and shipping them off to Holden....and Im sure that Aussies would have flipped sh*t looking at this flamboyant POS rattling down there rough roads....Think about that.

Camaro hasnt been build in America since 92....no one had a problem since then. I dont see people ready to burn there 4th gens because they arent made in America. I think that the name Camaro has more meaning then where its made. I would actualy LOVE for Holden to make the Camaro. Designed here in the US...but if I could get my Camaro with the fit, finish, and feel of teh GTO with great switchgear, great dash lay out, and appealling design, Id have no problem with GM making them in Oz.

No, that didnt kill GTO sales. There was never an entry level GTO...its a GTO or its a Tempest. GM NA already maxxed out capacity at the Holden plant making the limited number of GTO's. It would have cost more to put a lesser cloth and other bits in the interior.
There was always an entry level Camaro....did we not just have 35 years of Camaro to look back on?

You know, unless the Mustang is such a turd and become FWD, the Camaro will always be #2, get used to it. Even the Pinto Mustang outsold the much more attractive Camaro...why? Because it said Mustang.
As for the GTO being "halfhearted"....if going to Holden and demanding to quintouple production of the Monaro, adding performance and such to make it look like a Pontiac, and doing this in very fast time being "halfhearted"....Im sure that the hoops Lutz and Co. had to jump through werent done "halfhearted".
A Camaro wont do much for a revolution. Its cars like the Malibu, Cobalt, Nox, etc...making a dent into the stronghold that the Import cars have over 95% of the market. A Camaro is just a halo car that will appeal to people's wild side.

Thing is this...the GTO is NOT a Camaro. Its not a fill in, its not its replacement, and it shouldnt be looked too as one.
Stop comparing the damn GTO to the Camaro. The Camaro is a low end sports coupe that goes from V6 to V8. GTO is a luxury sports coupe that has a V8 only, with quality leather, etc standard. Two very different cars for two very different markets.
Only things you can compared the GTO to Camaro too are things like fit and finish, interior size, handling, performance, and packaging. The GTO is shorter then the 4th gens, yet has way more interior space, and WORLDS better in quality then the 4th gens, when they were about the same price. Look at a CETA or a 35th Anni Camaro. All fetched over 35k, and then markup for being "last of the breed" BS. What did you get? Crappy leather seats, squeek-prone dash, chitty plastics in and out, horrible interior space, and the list goes on and on....
Everyone loves to compare the future Camaro to the GTO, and if you are going to do that, look at the things that worked. All the subjects you brought up are pretty boring and been said.
Yeah, we know its not the rice-boy crazyfest that the TA was
Yeah, we know there is no base end model
Yeah, we know that its not built in America...
These points are all rather dull and really getting on my nerves.
We wont see a single version of the Camaro at a production of only 18k units a year, and designed and built by Holden. Stop comparing thoes subjects.

 

aMEN to that. I'm so sick of the whiners and GM-cynics I see posting here, I hardly come to this site anymore. The GTO was well-designed and built but did suffer from wild markups from dealers and as pointed out by another poster, that was also key in the initial sales. This car is a definite step above the 4gen Fbody in class, quality, and overall road performance. Too bad the naysayers can't see that. Enthusiasts are a notoriously picky and finicky crowd. Brace yourself for the upcoming 'perfect storm' of nitpicking over the next Camaro

 

It is your choice whether or not you take offense at what I said. Since I don't know you then obviously I could not have possibly been personally referring to you. But yeah, you kinda just proved my point. Oh, so you are twenty two.....must have a much more mature opinion on vehicle styling being a whole three years older than the age I used in my post.

If I'm GM, next time a situtation like this comes up, I'm not going to waste time and resources bringing a car here for the enthusiasts when the enthusiasts will just bad mouth it to no end.

Just because what I said doesn't apply to YOU doesn't mean I'm not making valid points. So out of hundreds of thousands of people we now have 1 where what I said doesn't apply. Gee, you really proved me wrong.

My point is the majority of people IN A POSITION TO ACTUALLY PURCHASE probably appreciate the more subdued, MATURE styling. Your are clearly an exception to the rule, not an exemplar of it.

I find it VERY hippocritical all the folks out there bitching about GTO styling being bland when the 4th Gen Camaro/Z28, though a good looking car, was notable for its simple, some might say bland styling. It didn't need a bunch of scoops and vents and crap to look good. Now we've got this optional hood and revised rear exhaust on the GTO, plus upgraded brakes and a 400 HORSEPOWER MOTOR and fully independent rear suspension in a car that is vastly more well built, all for around $32,000. How many people here plunked down that kind of money on 325 hp SS's and WS6's and even firehawks? Adjust for 3 years of inflation since the F-body died and you have a bargain in the GTO by comparison.

If you don't like it, then don't buy one. Just shut the hell up about it already. I think GM has gotten the point by now that a lot of people don't like the car.

 

We learned that poor pricing, marketing, and dealer markup can kill even the best of products.

The next GTO needs to have a 28K starting point and scale up to $36K.

GM also needs to learn to offer more rims, optional chrome, and bigger sizes. Holden already has a nice selection of 18"s, offer some at least a dealer options. GM has always lagged behind the competition when it comes to rims. The 20"s for the Silverado was a great move and similar programs need to be done for other GM platforms.

 

The GTO teaches us that Canada's bumper laws suck!

I like the GTO.

 

Amen to both points..... well actually, I'm not so sure that our 5 mph bumper requirement sucks, but the fact that it is at odds with both Australia and the US certainly does.... means no GTO above the 49th.

 

If I may interject a bit...personally, I have no problem at all with "bland" or "mature" styling. I never really cared for scoops and wings and such (even took the spoiler off my 99 Cobra). However, I think a lot of folks consider the styling to be too "cookie-cutter" Pontiac, if I can use that term. In reference to the Camaro, some might have considered it "bland", but as soon as you saw it coming down the road, you instantly knew it was a Camaro - there was no staring at it trying to figure out if it was a GP, Grand Am, or whatever.

As I've said before - I'm not trying to say this is necessarily a bad thing.

If we all did that, it would get rather boring and single-minded, wouldn't it?

 

How optimistic, but sadly wrong.

First, the next "Camaro" probably won't be call Camaro....and that's just as well in my book.

It's not being specifically designed to be a Camaro. No sir. It's being designed to be a Riviera convertible and GTO coupe. It's taking alot of the cues that Danno saw at the GONGAS clinic....and stretching them to fit this Buick/Pontiac car.

If you feel that slapping GTO emblems on a Monaro, gave you a car which is not a GTO......wait till they slap Camaro emblems on a Buick.

 

What? First, its been said here that the car at the clinic was clearly Camaro looking, or at least very appealing. What is this talk about it being a Buick now?

Now if its not called Camaro, and its called Chevelle, thats FINE with me. Then this whole thread is worthless and who gives a damn? If its not called Camaro, then this conversation is over, correct? I dont care what it looks like. It could be a SUV for all I care, as long as Camaro isnt badged on the side.

If this Chevy coupe doesnt have a Camaro badge on it, and it clearly doesnt fit our vastly changing specifications and ideas of what a Camaro is or should be, then thats fine. If it looks good, I will still buy one. I want a nice, RWD, V8, 6spd, Chevy coupe. As long as its not a land barge, which the present GTO is not, and its styling is very appealing, I am all for it. I would be pissed if it did fit the Camaro specs, and the name didnt show up on the deck lid.
I want something OTHER then a Mustang, and I want it with a Bow Tie on it.

 

Buick and especially Pontiac are driving the program. Chevy is just tagging along to give these two the necessary volume to make the program more viable.

The car that clinic'd so well was substantially smaller and more agressively styled than the Chevy Zeta coupe, (especially in front),....although it carries many of it's styling elements.

If all you're looking for is a RWD, V8, Chevy coupe....then you'll be happy.

If you're hoping for a Camaro (either in spirit or name)..... you'll be sad.

 

You're right, I didn't prove you wrong. That is because you did nothing to prove that you are right. You said that "95% of people that say it looks boring ar[e] 19 year old boy racers who'd never be able to afford the car." That is quite the statistic you have sighted. Where did your information come from? Is it merely an opinion?

A rule? Again, this sounds more like an opinion to me.

Now you have stated something worthwhile. It's amazing that so many people on this board get so caught up in details, that they miss the big picture. The bottom line is that GTO sales are lagging and the public response has been luke-warm at best. I don't like the car, and it seems as though a lot of people share my opinion. Meanwhile, public excitement for the 05 Mustang has been much better.

We can argue all day about 19 year old boy racers, mature styling, being ungrateful or whatever, but take a look at the bottom line. You stated it yourself. "I think GM has gotten the point by now that a lot of people don't like the car."

Yes, they have, but it doesn't hurt to bring up the topic once in a while just to make sure they don't repeat the same mistakes with a possible 5th gen Camaro.