I did, but you did not address it:

 

I think I'm missing something here.

If one of us goes online and does some research and digging, and we find a bit of info that's not protected in any way, we cannot post it because it may be damaging to a car company. Is that right?

And I'm not saying going into a car company and STEALING info or documents. We all know that is wrong.

But if it's already on the web or gets mentioned to you by an insider who doesn't ask that you keep it secret, we're still not allowed to re-post it? How do you decide if it's fair game or not? Are we supposed to take the info to the car company and ask their permission for every thing we find? Of course they'll say no. So even if we were not the ones who stole this info, we are still liable in the eyes of the companies. Instead of wasting their time coming after the messenger, why don't they go after the person(s) who actually stole the info. How are we supposed to know what is legit and what is not? Oh, that's right. We're supposed to ask the company first. I'm sure they would LOVE us to be posting info about them.

And what about a few months back, when guion, using NEWSPAPER articles already written, surmised the reasons for the closing of the Ste. Therese factory. Shortly after he wrote his article, GM asked for the article to be rmoved. Why? What info or documents did he steal? None. What confidentiality statement did he violate? None.
This is a simple case of GM acting like the Gestapo. Or Big Brother. "You'll hear what we want you hear when we want you to hear it."

So where does that leave us? As a corporate puppy dog. We can't say anything unless they approve it. Why not just go to the companies' official site and get what little info they offer there? Obviously that's what they want.

I thought the whole point of this section was to dig up info on the future Camaro. If we're not allowed to post what we find, then doesn't that kind of render this section irrelevant? If we abide by the car companies wishes, then that effectively leaves us neutered.

 

Question....Well really a few...

Does GM own the copyright on the future product guide that was leaked? Not really, the company the published it does. And as long as it does not contain plaguerized information, there is nothing GM can do.

Another question...would we stand for a public politician offering unequal access to news media because GM didn't approve of what they published? Was Nixon able to penalize the Washington Post specifically for reporting on Watergate? He couldn't say...."I don't like that you all wrote that about me...so I am gonna use access to news materials to penalize you".

Now you are saying..."But GM is not the government.". Well that is true, but they are also a publicly traded company with millions of stake holders around the world. That means that thier actions are subject to just as much scrutany as any government agaency.

One could argue that websites reporting on the upcoming 05 GTO saved consumers millions in deprieciation because it forced GM to put rebates on the car that it need. If GM is talking about closing a plant, and a website reports it before GM would like, is the website in the wrong? I think not, because thousands of lives are effected by that move.

As for future product plans....most of the stuff posted can be guessed or read about by anyone who cares enough to find out. On top of that, Ford, Toyota, Honda, etc all have their own corprate espionage networks that know this stuff way better than we do. Sure it may steal the thunder at an autoshow, but other than that, what are the ramifications. I don't see Jim Bob telling his wife that they can't buy an Impala today because a RWD one is coming in three years. As for not wanting the Camaro info out..many of the reasons for that are GM's fault for bad business decisions and painting themselves in a corner.

 

If an insider gives you info - why not ask them directly: "Is this information too confidential for me to post on the Internet, with your name listed as my source?" If they say yes, there is your answer. If they equivocate, you can still PM the moderators here before posting it. What's so hard about taking those steps?

I can only speak for myself... but I for one would feel absolutely lousy if someone "in the know" told me the 2007 Grand Prix was destined to have a wonderful new power adder of some kind... I post it here without asking anyone, so I can look like one of those cool insiders... and then later in 2005 I find out the Ford Super-500 will also have that same device "due to an idea found at www.camaross.com"

 

Jason I think what is being said is that GM really has lost sight of things around here...whats your take? I mean if you step back and look at it..if you dindt know 1/4 of things going on GM really has no Revolution going on right now..its stalled..and to be competative I think GM needs to be more vocal not clammed up...we as people that look for performance cars have not heard a peep from GM really unless you have a 3 figure income...for us not a peep...




and yes GM images should not be posted till they are out. I agree...lets not break policy with GM...and I can tell you we have asked alot of questions and alot of times it come back as an I have no idea?? why ?? someone has to be here to give us the "faith" but it dosnt look like GM can give us any any time soon...

we have asked and I hope mags, or even GM look at these post..heck I would love to have someone email the 5th gen forum to Lutz..see the people that will be his market are getting angry and nasty and have lost the "faith" we have had for what now??? over 3 yrs? with the possible production of a Camaro now up one more year??

I look at it this way..the Solstice was GM's prototype to have a concept from scratch to street in 2 yrs..right?? its been over 2 yrs heck I think 3 now and no car...anoother fault from GM..
But going on that 2 yr policy..from a concept to car from scratch how about this we dont need a platform we have one..or two or three??? whoever you ask..and a drivetrain...all we need is sheetmetal and interior...right?? so whats the holdup??? GM really has made a hard answer out of an easy question..and no matter what anyone says it is..GM where is our Camaro..

and GM or Red or even Jason D...my fiancee and I are looking into getting a new car..my 4th gen is now 11 yrs old! Im keeping it but need a new car..and only one car from GM has got my interest the GTO...but unless it comes in used for around 22K then its not going to happen..and there is alot of cars out there that we are looking at..Mustang to SRT4 (cus its cheeper than Cobalst SS)

so thats where GM is going ..to loose its market base every day it dosnt pipe up...someone has to come back and tell GM hey get out there and speak up..

Cant have a REVOLUTION without the amunition and guns????

 

Guys, I think you are reading WAY to deep into my level of involvement on this and what I have said about it.

I am not a GM employee or a GM spokesperson.
I am not responsble for GM's decisions and policies.
I cannot answer nor speak for GM.

You are all grown-ups and you know what is right and wrong. I have no desire to split hairs and try to explain and define what that is. Some of things thing said in this thread are so wildly inaccurate that I could hardly believe what I was reading. Some of the gross innaccuracies were said by people who should probably know better or just wish to ignore the facts because they disagree with them or do not like them. The facts need to be taken into heavy consideration before being spewing out misinformation and constructing opinion as fact.

All I can do is be responsible for being cooperative when it comes to the content of this site, which includes me repeating the following:

And once again, if you have questions about this, e-mail me and ask. There is no need to post here and get people all riled up. This place was humming along just fine until some documents got out that didn't need to be and people jumped the gun and got all bent out of shape. There is PLENTY of other things to talk about that are still worthwhile. There was before anyway.

If you feel justified in your beliefs when it comes to the situations at hand, feel free to use your own site for it or start one of your own. As far as this site, read the quote above along with my precious posts on the subject. I cannot make it any simpler, there are no tricks up my sleeve and no need to try to read between the lines. It is what it is and there really isn't anything more to it.

I have no need or reason to perpetuate this any further. I have said what I need to say, and if you have questions about this, you know what to do.

I respectfully request that wel all get back to being productive and enouraging instead of what we has been carried out in this thread.

 

Jason,

I would only ask again...for all to see.....what would have been the proper way to discuss this information without crossing lines?

As far as I can tell, no-one has said where and how this information was gleaned...when we find that out, then we need to discuss, IF it was done innocently enough, then how should it have been presented?

 

Just like how we always have. Nothing really needs to change. People are making WAY to big of a deal about this. Just use your head. If someone says it is inappropriate, don't post it. If you don't know and it comes out that it doesn't belong, it will be dealt with. No one is going to come to your house and shoot you in the face if a mistake is made.

Furthermore, don't complain if something gets removed.

Keep in mind, this situation is uncharted territory for everyone. It hasn't really happened like this before, at least not to this level. I think that it won't be a frequent problem in the futre, either. Therefore, it isn't really something that needs to get people all stressed out...including me.

There really is no black and white, it IS a grey area for ALL of us. I am not exempt from this. That is why common sense will work wonders if actually used.

I think I got all the bases covered...like I said. If you have other questions...e-mail me.

 

This, I think, is the salient point.

This site started out as a grassroots gathering of people with a common interest, willing to share whatever insight and tips they could and build some enthusiasm. By the luck of the draw, it became one of the best and drew a huge following.

As a result, the site owners have gone from nobodies running a website in their basement to people receiving "perks" from GM. Kinda hard to give that up, I suppose. So to protect their own personal interests, they turn their backs on the people that got them there in the first place for fear of losing this newfound status.

As I said in a previous thread on this topic, at some point a website needs to think about who it's in business to serve: its members, or some corporation. Apparently this site feels that its higher calling is to serve GM's wants and desires, not the members.

 

Wait a minute...what perks? If there are "perks", I sure would like to know about them.

Can someone please fill me in on this? Doug? R377?

Other than giving us some information like production numbers to post, I cannot think of a single thing GM has given me or Chris in return for running this site so I am really not sure what you guys are talking about.

So let's hear about these perks. I am pretty curious. Doug? R377?

 

You talk a big story, but it is obvious you know not of what you speak.

Actually, I would argue it wasn't and isn't luck which let this site grow to be one of the biggest and the best, it is through careful management and well thought out decisions.

Also, you couldn't be farther from the truth about the owners protecting their own personal interests. How the heck do you know what they do or don't get from anyone due to this site, status or anything else? Oh, that's right, you don't. You would rather just come on here and make a fool of yourself. Good idea.

Step back and look at what you posted and think for a minute. The owners of this website want to preserve this site for everyone, not just keep the the 5th gen forum happy. Sometimes in the course of these decisions they may have to protect the ENTIRE website, by making decisions that some people might not agree with.

For you to come here and make a post like you just did, is like a slap in the face to the peope who work daily to provide you with a place to come and enjoy. Keep that in mind next time you want to form an opinion and come here and put people down.

 

Perhaps all of this disorder and arguing is merely a reflection of GM's changing philosophies and the resentment many enthusiasts feel towards them.

Such drama. I wonder if the Mustang boards are like this?

 

i know it hasn't happened here. but haven't other forums been given advanced test drives and such?

but in all honesty i think jason and chris should be given a preview of the car before everyone else. they've always been eager to follow the rules and they are the reason there is any faith over the web. not many other forums can handle their users and keep a good relationship.
compliments to the chef

 

First off, you have no way of knowing what I do or do not know, so don't make assumptions. As someone who just accused me of being a "fool" for doing that, you've pretty much put yourself into the same boat.

Let me quote from an ealier post by Jason regarding the tooling presentation that was posted: "We do not want this site to be like the others that post crap just for a few hour's of attention. We have nothing to prove, and we will not cut our own throats to get the "scoop". This has NOTHING to do with legal issues. NO ONE ever said it did."

So, it's not a legal issue. Then where is the need to "protect the ENTIRE website"? How is this site "cutting its own throat" by publishing it? As far as I can tell, the only entity that would have reason to be pissed off about the posting of that document is GM. If nothing illegal was done, why be concerned if GM is pissed? What's this site got to lose?

Also, I'm sure TED did not care in the least about getting a few hours of attention for this site. He posted it because he wanted to share with everyone else.

This site was built by its members. We're certianly grateful to the owners to have a place to post, but it's a two-way street. I would argue that this site has slapped the face of all the people in this forum who helped make it a success by arbitrarily deciding to censor information on upcoming programs. News flash: that's why they come here. In the formative period of this website posting such information would have been key to attracting members and furthering a quality discussion. But I guess now that this site has made it big, they can turn their backs on what helped them get here.

 

R377...

Seriously...you don't know what you are talking about. Really.